Jpbg,
Read Jac's post here.
It explains where your theology goes wrong.
Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
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RickD
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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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crochet1949
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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
Maybe we are seeing the difference between a Head belief and a Heart belief.
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RickD
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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
When it comes to biblical "believe", as in John 3:16, believe means trust. There is no head vs heart regarding trust. I just don't see a distinction. Trust in Christ, and have eternal life.crochet1949 wrote:Maybe we are seeing the difference between a Head belief and a Heart belief.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
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abelcainsbrother
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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
There is no losing our salvation once we are saved and only God knows who truly has been saved,not everybody who claims to believe in Jesus or says they are a Christian is,and even then only God knows. This is why we cannot judge people based on their actions and say they are saved or not,only God knows. The problem some overlook is not everybody who claims they are a Christian is,only those who were truly saved are. Do not play God because you cannot know who is saved or not based on people's actions.It could surprise you who makes it to heaven and who doesn't.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.
2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.
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crochet1949
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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
abelcainsbrother wrote:There is no losing our salvation once we are saved and only God knows who truly has been saved,not everybody who claims to believe in Jesus or says they are a Christian is,and even then only God knows. This is why we cannot judge people based on their actions and say they are saved or not,only God knows. The problem some overlook is not everybody who claims they are a Christian is,only those who were truly saved are. Do not play God because you cannot know who is saved or not based on people's actions.It could surprise you who makes it to heaven and who doesn't.
And THAT is exactly why we Need to be showing Loving concern for people's spiritual condition. God's Word gives the way to be saved. Belief takes place in our heart. We express it verbally. The Holy Spirit is the One who comes into us and makes the difference. We become a child of God. Our actions Should reflect the inner change. If a person's life does Not reflect Jesus Christ then there Is a problem. A desire for Bible reading, praying, joining a group of fellow Christians for fellowship all produce spiritual growth / development. Guidance for new believers -- all these elements are important.
Part of the job of pastors, S.S. teachers, etc is to teach Biblical ethics, morality -- guide the group of believers to deeper understanding and practice in daily life. If /when people are Not living Godly lives -- help Needs to be given -- direction given in a loving way. Come along side of the person and make an effort to get to know them and guide them. And sometimes a person simply needs to know that someone cares enough To approach them. They need a Christian friend.
A person buys a piece of property and it has trees / bushes on it. The fruit it produces identifies what kind of tree it is.
And, yes, God Does know our hearts -- He's the only one who Really does. His presence in our lives Does make a difference.
Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
Jac3510 So you are saying that you know Greek better then the inturpiters of the Bible. They used the word "Believeth" because it best fit the meaning of the text, and they felt it would change the real meaning of the verses if they put "believe or believed".
The whole Bible has to fit together or our interpretation of it is all wrong. The bible says you can stop believing after you believe. So you can not say that ones you believe then you always believe, because Jesus said you can stop.
The bible also says if you do not believe then you do not have everlasting life. Both statements are in the bible. So they must fit together with out changing the meaning of either of them. That is why they use the word "believeth" instead of "believed" in those verses.
This verse says if you currently do not believe you are going to hell when you die.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
That is why Paul said he kept the faith. That is why the bible tells us to ender to the end. And there are a lot more saying like these in the bible. The reason they are there is because you can stop believing.
The whole Bible has to fit together or our interpretation of it is all wrong. The bible says you can stop believing after you believe. So you can not say that ones you believe then you always believe, because Jesus said you can stop.
The bible also says if you do not believe then you do not have everlasting life. Both statements are in the bible. So they must fit together with out changing the meaning of either of them. That is why they use the word "believeth" instead of "believed" in those verses.
This verse says if you currently do not believe you are going to hell when you die.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
That is why Paul said he kept the faith. That is why the bible tells us to ender to the end. And there are a lot more saying like these in the bible. The reason they are there is because you can stop believing.
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RickD
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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
Jpbg,
Again, I direct you to this post.
I think you need to reread it. Everything you just said, was addressed there.
Again, I direct you to this post.
I think you need to reread it. Everything you just said, was addressed there.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
The problem in what he said is that his post makes the Bible contradict its self so he is wrong in what he is saying.
the bible says if you do not believe then you are going to hell. So if you stop believing then you do not believe there for you are going to hell.
Joh_15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jac3510 you are right if you stop believing you are not bearing fruit, and Jesus said if you are not bearing fruit then He is not in you. So stop adding to the text by saying it said "everlasting life".
the bible says if you do not believe then you are going to hell. So if you stop believing then you do not believe there for you are going to hell.
if your life is not bringing forth fruit then Jesus dose not abide in you.Jac3510 wrote
As far as what happens when they stop believing, the text itself tells you. You don't have to go outside of it. They don't bear fruit. THAT is what happens. Anything other than that and you are adding to the text.
Joh_15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jac3510 you are right if you stop believing you are not bearing fruit, and Jesus said if you are not bearing fruit then He is not in you. So stop adding to the text by saying it said "everlasting life".
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RickD
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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
Ok, that's it!
People, please don't feed the trolls!
This dose seem quite ridiculous!
People, please don't feed the trolls!
This dose seem quite ridiculous!
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
comments like that make no sense. You told me to look at his post and I did then I showed you where he was wrong.
If it hurts when I prove you wrong then that is a personal problem. Y'all are using a word to get y'all's doctrine, and I am using the whole bible.
hummmm! I wonder who is wrong.
If it hurts when I prove you wrong then that is a personal problem. Y'all are using a word to get y'all's doctrine, and I am using the whole bible.
hummmm! I wonder who is wrong.
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RickD
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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
I really can't argue with that logic.jpbg33 wrote:comments like that make no sense. You told me to look at his post and I did then I showed you where he was wrong.
If it hurts when I prove you wrong then that is a personal problem. Y'all are using a word to get y'all's doctrine, and I am using the whole bible.
hummmm! I wonder who is wrong.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
I'm going to let it go for the week end and give others time to post. If have made anyone mad I am sorry that was not what I was intending to do.
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Jac3510
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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
Nah, Rick. No way you can argue it. I mean, he actually quoted John 15:5. I mean, I've never read that before. I didn't know that was in there. Did you? I mean, I bet if I go and show that to all the evangelical scholars out there, they are ALL going to be totally shocked and totally blown away. That verse is THE SECRET. NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN IT BEFORE!!!RickD wrote:I really can't argue with that logic.jpbg33 wrote:comments like that make no sense. You told me to look at his post and I did then I showed you where he was wrong.
If it hurts when I prove you wrong then that is a personal problem. Y'all are using a word to get y'all's doctrine, and I am using the whole bible.
hummmm! I wonder who is wrong.
Really, I think jpbg should just put that verse up on a billboard and say, "Ignore everything else in the Bible. I know you haven't read this before. This settles it!" and the masses will finally convert and give up the gospel their false doctrine.
jpbg, I just need to thank you for very thoughtfully and carefully ignoring everything I said and quoting a verse that I have never, ever, ever read, not even once. Your insight is so amazing that I simply am too embarrassed to continue casting my pearls before swine. Your intellect is so piercing that I can't take your withering non-critiques and totally unjustified dismissing of my argument, and so I respectful withdraw from your sermon this discussion.
Peace out, dude!
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
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crochet1949
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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
jpbg33 -- your spelling needs some work 'dose'= does 'inturpiters' = interpreters -- you Did get 'interpretation' correct.
The Old Testament originated in Hebrew with some Aramaic and the New Testament was in Greek originally.
Men Or women who are going into the ministry or simply want to take Greek in Bible college / seminary can do so. Many years ago my brother-in-law took Greek and an assignment was to translate the book of 1st John. My husband did also.
Usually -- the way it works -- is that If the Bible seems to contradict itself -- it's usually the person reading it that hasn't dug deep enough into the particular subject area. And there Are some complicated areas of doctrine.
Salvation is a heaven or hell - eternal destination subject.
What does a person believe in their heart -- Now. Once the Holy Spirit has come into our heart to indwell us --He does NOT leave us.
The Old Testament originated in Hebrew with some Aramaic and the New Testament was in Greek originally.
Men Or women who are going into the ministry or simply want to take Greek in Bible college / seminary can do so. Many years ago my brother-in-law took Greek and an assignment was to translate the book of 1st John. My husband did also.
Usually -- the way it works -- is that If the Bible seems to contradict itself -- it's usually the person reading it that hasn't dug deep enough into the particular subject area. And there Are some complicated areas of doctrine.
Salvation is a heaven or hell - eternal destination subject.
What does a person believe in their heart -- Now. Once the Holy Spirit has come into our heart to indwell us --He does NOT leave us.
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BigHamster
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Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)
jpgg, I hope you don't misinterpret this one....
"And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." Matt 5:30
well, sadly there was one case .....http://www.dawn.com/news/1233191
"And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell." Matt 5:30
well, sadly there was one case .....http://www.dawn.com/news/1233191