Question: What is Math?

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
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Re: Question: What is Math?

#136

Post by RickD » Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:54 pm

Byblos wrote:
RickD wrote:
Byblos wrote:
RickD wrote:K,

What do you mean when you say, "maths appears to be an eternal property"?

You're saying maths was a property of the universe, before the universe existed?
Math as a property of reality, no. But math as am abstract entity, yes. The number 7 as an abstract is not dependent on the universe. But it doesn't stand in causal relation to anything either.
But doesn't the number 7 represent a specific quantity of things that didn't exist prior to the universe? If all "things" came into existence with the universe, then how can something that represents something else, exist even in the abstract, if whatever it can possibly represent, has never existed?
By universe I assume you mean reality, whether it be this universe or other or multi. As K suggested, abstract ideas exist in the mind, an intelligent mind. I can think of 7 unicorns, though they don't necessarily exist.
By universe, I simply mean all space, time, and matter. If things had yet to exist, you're saying that numbers still existed in the mind, even though there was nothing that numbers represented?

Is this getting into the immutability of God?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Question: What is Math?

#137

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:50 pm

Byblos wrote:
RickD wrote:K,

What do you mean when you say, "maths appears to be an eternal property"?

You're saying maths was a property of the universe, before the universe existed?
Math as a property of reality, no. But math as am abstract entity, yes. The number 7 as an abstract is not dependent on the universe. But it doesn't stand in causal relation to anything either.
We could reduce "maths" to simply numbers (i.e., 0, 1 or 7).

If nothingness is represented by zero,
then even without the universe we have an abstract of nothingness (0).
Therefore, maths (at a minimum in abstract form) seems to always exist.
  • Abstract: existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence.
It seems to me that maths is fundamentally "idea" in flavour.
These ideas are then actualised and embodied by physical representations in our universe.
When us humans uncover new mathematic formulas, of which many are uncovered based upon observing physical realities of our universe, we're simply uncovering these pre-existent "ideas".

The problem I see in discussions like this, is that mathematics seem so dependent upon a mind (this seems largely how Kenny sees maths). Yet then, we know irrespective of human minds that maths or numbers would still exist -- even if nobody knows or can describe such. But for many, only finite human minds exist and that there causes an issue.

So then, my argument might go something like:
  • 1. Maths (numbers) have the qualitative feel of an idea.
    2. Ideas themselves are dependent upon a mind for their existence.
    3. So then, maths in dependent upon a mind.
then additional argument:
  • 4. It is inconceivable to think that numbers haven't always existed (i.e., even when nothing there is 0).
    5. If it is inconceivable to think numbers haven't always existed, then maths is eternal.
    6. Therefore, there exists an eternal mind upon which maths depends (from #3 and #5).
This is, for me, one powerful argument for the existence of God.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Question: What is Math?

#138

Post by Byblos » Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:56 pm

RickD wrote:
Byblos wrote:
RickD wrote:
Byblos wrote:
RickD wrote:K,

What do you mean when you say, "maths appears to be an eternal property"?

You're saying maths was a property of the universe, before the universe existed?
Math as a property of reality, no. But math as am abstract entity, yes. The number 7 as an abstract is not dependent on the universe. But it doesn't stand in causal relation to anything either.
But doesn't the number 7 represent a specific quantity of things that didn't exist prior to the universe? If all "things" came into existence with the universe, then how can something that represents something else, exist even in the abstract, if whatever it can possibly represent, has never existed?
By universe I assume you mean reality, whether it be this universe or other or multi. As K suggested, abstract ideas exist in the mind, an intelligent mind. I can think of 7 unicorns, though they don't necessarily exist.
By universe, I simply mean all space, time, and matter. If things had yet to exist, you're saying that numbers still existed in the mind, even though there was nothing that numbers represented?

Is this getting into the immutability of God?
I'm not sure about Immutability but certainly his aseity. Nothing exists independent of Him. Unless one wants to argue mathematical platonism (and platonism in general) but forthat we'll need K or Jac. I know my limits.
:mrgreen:
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Re: Question: What is Math?

#139

Post by Kenny » Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:47 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Kenny wrote:Just to be clear, I hold the position that it is people using math who predicts things; and you guys are holding the position that it is actually math that is predicting these things, and people gained the knowledge by discovering math thus obtaining all the knowledge math provided. Please explain the difference.
Why did you re-formulate the original question?
Such seems to me purposefully shifty.
I wasn’t reformulating the original question, I was more so responding to specific people rather than the original question. Byblos holds the position that math predicts things in the Universe, that if people didn’t exist, these things would be predicted anyway, and I hold the position that people use math to predict these things, that if people didn’t exist, these things would not be predicted.
This is starting to sound about as pointless as debating the existence of God; Doesn't make sense to me, but makes perfect sense to them.

Ken
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Re: Question: What is Math?

#140

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:15 pm

Kenny wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Kenny wrote:Just to be clear, I hold the position that it is people using math who predicts things; and you guys are holding the position that it is actually math that is predicting these things, and people gained the knowledge by discovering math thus obtaining all the knowledge math provided. Please explain the difference.
Why did you re-formulate the original question?
Such seems to me purposefully shifty.
I wasn’t reformulating the original question, I was more so responding to specific people rather than the original question. Byblos holds the position that math predicts things in the Universe, that if people didn’t exist, these things would be predicted anyway, and I hold the position that people use math to predict these things, that if people didn’t exist, these things would not be predicted.
This is starting to sound about as pointless as debating the existence of God; Doesn't make sense to me, but makes perfect sense to them.
Kenny, anyone carefully reading Byblos' words should be able to understand what he meant.
Only you then threw a red herring into the discussion, you shifted the discussion from the original question.

Byblos originally said that math is descriptive and also "using mathematics we can predict the existence of the Higgs boson."

You then chimed in with your reddish-like herring: "Math didn't predict anything; people using math did."
(that's where you changed the nature of the discussion from the original question, and threw a rebuff to Byblos which actually had no relevance dealing with what he said at all -- if anything just supported what he said)

Byblos responded you added nothing, but then Ice got confused by your red herring, and so Byblos sadly had to clarify himself further. Still now you make your confused statements bolded above.

Kenny, if you're not confused yourself you're definitely a master at causing confusion.
You must get many headaches in that head of yours right? ;)
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Byblos (Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:03 am)
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Re: Question: What is Math?

#141

Post by Kenny » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:07 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Kenny wrote:Just to be clear, I hold the position that it is people using math who predicts things; and you guys are holding the position that it is actually math that is predicting these things, and people gained the knowledge by discovering math thus obtaining all the knowledge math provided. Please explain the difference.
Why did you re-formulate the original question?
Such seems to me purposefully shifty.
I wasn’t reformulating the original question, I was more so responding to specific people rather than the original question. Byblos holds the position that math predicts things in the Universe, that if people didn’t exist, these things would be predicted anyway, and I hold the position that people use math to predict these things, that if people didn’t exist, these things would not be predicted.
This is starting to sound about as pointless as debating the existence of God; Doesn't make sense to me, but makes perfect sense to them.
Kenny, anyone carefully reading Byblos' words should be able to understand what he meant.
Only you then threw a red herring into the discussion, you shifted the discussion from the original question.

Byblos originally said that math is descriptive and also "using mathematics we can predict the existence of the Higgs boson."

You then chimed in with your reddish-like herring: "Math didn't predict anything; people using math did."
(that's where you changed the nature of the discussion from the original question, and threw a rebuff to Byblos which actually had no relevance dealing with what he said at all -- if anything just supported what he said)

Byblos responded you added nothing, but then Ice got confused by your red herring, and so Byblos sadly had to clarify himself further. Still now you make your confused statements bolded above.

Kenny, if you're not confused yourself you're definitely a master at causing confusion.
You must get many headaches in that head of yours right? ;)
You’re right! He said “using math we can predict” then I objected and said people using math can predict; basically repeating what he said.
Obviously I misunderstood what he said; that mistake was not intentional

Byblos; that was my mistake bro, I thought you were saying something different than what you were. And Kurieuo; thanks for pointing that out to me

Ken
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Kurieuo (Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:13 pm)
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Question: What is Math?

#142

Post by Byblos » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:07 am

Kenny wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Kenny wrote:Just to be clear, I hold the position that it is people using math who predicts things; and you guys are holding the position that it is actually math that is predicting these things, and people gained the knowledge by discovering math thus obtaining all the knowledge math provided. Please explain the difference.
Why did you re-formulate the original question?
Such seems to me purposefully shifty.
I wasn’t reformulating the original question, I was more so responding to specific people rather than the original question. Byblos holds the position that math predicts things in the Universe, that if people didn’t exist, these things would be predicted anyway, and I hold the position that people use math to predict these things, that if people didn’t exist, these things would not be predicted.
This is starting to sound about as pointless as debating the existence of God; Doesn't make sense to me, but makes perfect sense to them.
Kenny, anyone carefully reading Byblos' words should be able to understand what he meant.
Only you then threw a red herring into the discussion, you shifted the discussion from the original question.

Byblos originally said that math is descriptive and also "using mathematics we can predict the existence of the Higgs boson."

You then chimed in with your reddish-like herring: "Math didn't predict anything; people using math did."
(that's where you changed the nature of the discussion from the original question, and threw a rebuff to Byblos which actually had no relevance dealing with what he said at all -- if anything just supported what he said)

Byblos responded you added nothing, but then Ice got confused by your red herring, and so Byblos sadly had to clarify himself further. Still now you make your confused statements bolded above.

Kenny, if you're not confused yourself you're definitely a master at causing confusion.
You must get many headaches in that head of yours right? ;)
You’re right! He said “using math we can predict” then I objected and said people using math can predict; basically repeating what he said.
Obviously I misunderstood what he said; that mistake was not intentional

Byblos; that was my mistake bro, I thought you were saying something different than what you were. And Kurieuo; thanks for pointing that out to me

Ken
No worries, glad we're on the same page.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Question: What is Math?

#143

Post by 1over137 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:00 am

:dancing: :twodancing:
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Question: What is Math?

#144

Post by RickD » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:51 am

Byblos wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Kurieuo wrote: Why did you re-formulate the original question?
Such seems to me purposefully shifty.
I wasn’t reformulating the original question, I was more so responding to specific people rather than the original question. Byblos holds the position that math predicts things in the Universe, that if people didn’t exist, these things would be predicted anyway, and I hold the position that people use math to predict these things, that if people didn’t exist, these things would not be predicted.
This is starting to sound about as pointless as debating the existence of God; Doesn't make sense to me, but makes perfect sense to them.
Kenny, anyone carefully reading Byblos' words should be able to understand what he meant.
Only you then threw a red herring into the discussion, you shifted the discussion from the original question.

Byblos originally said that math is descriptive and also "using mathematics we can predict the existence of the Higgs boson."

You then chimed in with your reddish-like herring: "Math didn't predict anything; people using math did."
(that's where you changed the nature of the discussion from the original question, and threw a rebuff to Byblos which actually had no relevance dealing with what he said at all -- if anything just supported what he said)

Byblos responded you added nothing, but then Ice got confused by your red herring, and so Byblos sadly had to clarify himself further. Still now you make your confused statements bolded above.

Kenny, if you're not confused yourself you're definitely a master at causing confusion.
You must get many headaches in that head of yours right? ;)
You’re right! He said “using math we can predict” then I objected and said people using math can predict; basically repeating what he said.
Obviously I misunderstood what he said; that mistake was not intentional

Byblos; that was my mistake bro, I thought you were saying something different than what you were. And Kurieuo; thanks for pointing that out to me

Ken
No worries, glad we're on the same page.
Byblos,

Does that mean you're obtuse too?
:mrgreen:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Question: What is Math?

#145

Post by Byblos » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:55 am

RickD wrote:Does that mean you're obtuse too?
:mrgreen:
Hey, hey, who're you callin' fat? :esurprised:
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Question: What is Math?

#146

Post by RickD » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:23 am

Byblos wrote:
RickD wrote:Does that mean you're obtuse too?
:mrgreen:
Hey, hey, who're you callin' fat? :esurprised:
Fat? Nooooo. When referring to weight, Obtuse means more than 90lbs and less than 180. :mrgreen:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Question: What is Math?

#147

Post by Byblos » Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:44 am

RickD wrote:
Byblos wrote:
RickD wrote:Does that mean you're obtuse too?
:mrgreen:
Hey, hey, who're you callin' fat? :esurprised:
Fat? Nooooo. When referring to weight, Obtuse means more than 90lbs and less than 180. :mrgreen:
Then I'm grateful you didn't use kilograms. :wave:
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Question: What is Math?

#148

Post by Storyteller » Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:58 am

I only understand stones :oops:
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Question: What is Math?

#149

Post by RickD » Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:06 am

Storyteller wrote:I only understand stones :oops:
You mean Mick, Keith and the others?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Question: What is Math?

#150

Post by RickD » Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:07 am

Byblos wrote:
RickD wrote:
Byblos wrote:
RickD wrote:Does that mean you're obtuse too?
:mrgreen:
Hey, hey, who're you callin' fat? :esurprised:
Fat? Nooooo. When referring to weight, Obtuse means more than 90lbs and less than 180. :mrgreen:
Then I'm grateful you didn't use kilograms. :wave:
Byblos please. You are not overweight. You're just undertall.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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