We never knew you

[melanie]

In one of the most iconic biblical passages when Jesus talks about who inherits the kingdom of heaven these words are most prolific;
When I was hungry you gave me something to eat,
When I was thirsty you gave me something to drink,
When I was a stranger you invited me in.
I needed clothes and you clothed me;
I was sick and you cared for me;
I was in prison and you visited me.

Then we have two groups
The humble that proclaim when did we ever did that for you?
According to Jesus when we did so for the very least.
Then the other group who asks the same question 'but Jesus we never neglected you' but he says depart from me I never knew you.

This does not take a theologian, or a scholar to get it right. It doesn't take a Catholic or Protestant, a Jehovah Witness nor a Seventh day Adventist.
Jesus told us clearly what it takes, it's not religious piety or observance. It doesn't matter how right you think you are in your stances.
Or theology or dogma.
It's so simple......
Give a damn, care deeply and compassionately about others.
We have made so many excuses as to why it's okay to be 'harsh' against certain groups of people, we have made an entire Christian culture surrounding such.
Our views, our ideals, our limitations, our weakness.
Jesus never said we should feed the hungry when we deem fit.
Cloth the destitute that we feel are worthy.
Home the stranger we think we should.
Visit those in jail that are innocent.
That speaks volumes to me.
It is the assumption that those in jail are guilty. I have read over the years writings of some that argue that Jesus was talking about those in prison that are innocent. What a way to twist the words of Jesus to suit our own limited understanding of compassion.
Prison and those that are imprisoned meant the same in Jesus day as it means today.
They are guilty. They are criminals.
Yet we are to treat them individually as if we are encountering Jesus.

The very least of us.

The lowest, the sickest, the most naked, the most guilty, and our greatest stranger. That is our least.

I am fed up with the modern version of Christianity that tells me I can choose who's worthy. Because Jesus tells me I can't.
I am tired with the lie that has infiltrated Christianity that we have the right to justify who's a stranger, who's sick enough, who's naked enough for our compassion because Jesus tells me it's the very bottom of the barrel that deserves it.
I am done with feeling like I have to justify a heart that fills humanity with hope, and compassion. That loves without reserve. Not in naive stupidity like I'm led to believe by some but in absolute, unwavering dignity and worth for everyone even if I think they have a long path to gain the Kingdom.
I give my Father and my saviour Jesus their place as judge in perfect fairness. That none of us are even remotely capable of.

Those words I will reiterate again;
When I was in jail you visited me,
Does that mean that we have to visit our local jail and visit all the inmates?
Or do we have to cloth every naked person?
Or is it a description of our heart.
Could we, would we, should we?

Jesus knows for each and the least of his what we would do.
Whether we are ever put in the position or not. It's not a condition of works it's a condition of the heart.
Believing in Jesus is through grace but it's not a get out of jail free card.
Belief means compassion, it compels love towards others, it encompasses a spirit of kindness.
Not when we think it should but at the hardest moments when we don't want too.

[EssentialSacrifice]

outstanding Mel, simply so well said ...outstanding.

[PaulSacramento]

I would only add this:

The parable of the sheep and the goats makes one very crucial element of "works" that many "works based religions" seem to neglect and that is that the "works" that were done ( feeding those that are hungry, caring for those that are sick, visiting those in need of companionship, in short, giving the necessities of life to those that need it) were done with NO Motive OTHER than to help.
They answer:

Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’

Those that Our Lord directed this were people that did good because it was the right thing to do.
They did NOT do it because they had to, because they wanted to be known, because they were told to, because they wanted some good "points" with God.
NO, they did it because it was the right thing to do for those they did it to.

INTENTION.

As for those that did nothing, their reply is telling too:

‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not give you whatever you needed?’

Their answer was one of ignorance, IF they had know it was HIM they would have helped ( probably because they wanted the "brownie points".

Good deeds with ulterior motives are not good deeds.

God knows what is in our hearts, better than we do.

He KNOWS why we do what we do.

[melanie]

Exactly Paul
Intention is everything, it strips us bear and exposes our motives.

Goodness isn't a self servicing practice. It's done in humility and most often despite any forward promotion for ourselves.
Selflessness is a hard road, that goes against our ego. It takes courage and conviction.
That the best of us fail at everyday.
But we don't have to get it right all the time we just have to want too.

[PaulSacramento]

And be ABLE to do it.

[B. W.]

Matthew 25 is about what Jesus says it is about: involving the universal judgement of the nations prophesied occurring at the time of the end mentioned in Rev 20:11-15. According to bible scholars, this judgement deals with how people dealt with the Jewish people and Christians during the great tribulation period.

While we can derive many lessons from this, please consider the actual context mentioned in verse 31...

Mat 25:31, "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. NASB

...and verse 32

Mat 25:32, "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; NASB

PaulSacramento is correct that we do not give into a guilt driven works based desire to earn brownie points with God.

Melanie is also correct that we need to tire of stupid Christianity. There are plenty of verses in the OT and NT besides this one that reveal that it is by God's grace that he enables us to help others in need in various ways. She is correct that the many Christian Churches do not do what the other verses in the bible reveal such as tending to the needs of widows and orphans, poor, down trodden, heal the broken heart, set folks free, etc and etc within their own congregations.

However, Matthew 25 has been used to justify doing works of charity without love and justifying doing such with impure motives. What do I mean by this?

First off, all of us have the innate need to feel accepted, valued, important. During the fall of humanity, we lost all sight, all hearing, and all the psychical closeness that God Almighty is our only place where we find true acceptance, value, importance.

This 'lostness' drives people to seek applauds, accolades, acceptance, value in other things. So people are robbed of these and seek them in church activity, good deeds, religious actions/rituals, as well as the negative side such as drugs/alcohol, pornography, power/control trips, never ending relationship, sex, academia, politics, etc and etc. People seek applauds, accolades the proverbial standing ovation from peers or from their inner world of escape.

They can do so with the verse such as Matthew 25 and get into a works based religion to get the applauds that secret oft disguised attitude that shouts: look at what I did... Look at what I did for God...

The people mentioned in Mathew 25 that helped others did not do this for self-actualization purposes. No, they were not aware they did anything at all good. This reveals the intent of the heart, the very thing that God judges justly. 1 Co 13:3 mentions this concept as well too:

1 Co 13:3, And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing... NASB

Even the love one thinks they have and its expression may not be the love that is missing in 1 Co 13:3. (see article link at bottom of page for an example)

The love mentioned in 1 Co 13:3, is LOVE for the Lord God Almighty. A desire that finds one’s value and acceptance grounded solely in the Lord God Almighty ALONE not self and not in what one can get out of him.

Why?

In this world, you and I will be rejected and ignored. If you are enslaved to seeking value, acceptance, pat on the back from others and even your own self to make yourself feel good/valued you will be in conflict with God because you are in competition with the glory due him, the same that God says he will not share with another. This sort of love is not love for God at all but a self seeking love disguised in the vestiges of religion.

It is instead a religious love that disguises its self-seeking as seeking God by works. It is a, 'look at me, I am not like those...' type of thing. One's only need for value and worth comes when self dies to the desires of self-acclaim. It does not come by human acts of self-mortification, self-abasement, self-affliction or duty bound works.

This comes by dying daily to our common human need for acclaim, acceptance, value from others and even from yourself to feel important - worthy, worth something. Dying to self occurs daily for Christians. As we proceed in this venture with God, the Holy Spirit works within us, guides and instructs us on what to do for those around us, how to do things by His way, not ours.

This may involve a handout, helping the needy, or tough love - kicking the free loaders out or protecting yourself from harm of having your good works exploited to promote your destruction. It may involve going to war spiritually or actual to defend against true threats. Not being a doormat as being a doormat enables a person never to change.

This all, and more, comes by the Holy Spirit guidance as we die to our need to gain approval from others/self, for a feeling of fleeting ever-escaping acceptance, etc and dying even to the ever subtle need for self-approval from God by our own good works. Christian, He already accepts you fully by what Jesus accomplished, so do you accept him accepting you without your adding anything to it?

In other words, the bible is true, we are his workmanship created to do His works thru us, his way, no ours. This involves seeking His presence, guidance - wanting nothing more that God himself. It involves the desire of this: If I can only but touch the hem of his garment, I will be healed.

You and I will never get the acclaim, acceptance, value from other people because public sentiment changes with the wind. Families reject, churches neglect, people abandon each other and this drives people mad and into more sin - dysfunctional ways... One's desire to earn brownie points with God too is nothing more that self-deception as it tries to be better than another to prove self-value.

So what does this have to do with Matthew 25:31-46?

It merely shedding light on how folks can innocently misapply the context of these verses that deal with the actual time of the end called the last Judgement of the nations concerning their personal treatment of believers during the last just judgment of God. I suggest reading the Book of Revelation through and you will discover how few people will pass this fair test.

In closing:

I have discovered that the more I seek the Lord's personal presence in my time of personal prayer and worship, the more I am prepared to correctly do things the ways God reveals to help others. I do not seek applauds for these things as they mean nothing to me at all. Instead I discover myself being transformed by The Lord working within me.

I both fail and I succeed and thru both, Jesus never lets me go. I must die daily to the need of approval from people. In that, I discovered true freedom and liberty Jesus mentioned in John chapter Eight as well as much tears as I see the need for further change.

Such language as this, many Christians find odd. However, I leave all to ponder and take time to reflect on what your inner day dreams reveal about yourself... to discover what I mean.

God Almighty accepts you, Christian, just as you are. But do you honestly accept His acceptance?

Why such day dreams?

Blessings ...
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P.S. an example of what I mean is found in this article:

Mother Teresa Did Not Feel Christ's Presence for Last Half of Her Life, Letters Reveal

[Kurieuo]

There are two commandments Christ mentions.

• 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’(Matthew 22:37-39)

Many today want to ignore the first and focus only on the second, and such then fail on both counts since there is nothing more loving than to help someone know God. "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." (John 17:3)

The only way one can truly know God is through Christ. Christianity itself is rather exclusive and dogmatic. Paul himself put in very serious and potent terms:

• As we have already said, so now I say again:If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God's curse! (Galatians 1:9)

Christian doctrine might appear unloving and arrogant, but it isn't a point-of-view we take because we hate or don't care about others. If we are merely asserting our own point-of-view in an intolerant manner, well then we're bullies and not to be tolerated.

BUT, when discussing TRUTH which we embrace as truth from God, passed on through Christ and his closest followers, and deposited to us in written form, then what we think and our opinion, it doesn't count for much at all!

No one except a cold-hearted person who I guarantee doesn't really know Christ, would delight in seeing someone cast out of God's kingdom for all eternity. Not even God delights in such, but He desires all to turn their hearts towards Him and know Him for why should they die and perish? (2 Peter 3:9; Ezekiel 18:23,32;33:11; 1 Tim 2:3-4)

And yet, many do perish because they reject Christ and will stand on their own before God when they die. That includes, Muslims, it includes Jews and it includes self-professing Christians who do not really know God at all. Good intentions count for nothing. And of some self-professing Christians, Melanie correctly points out Christ's words,

• 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matt 7:21-23)

SO then, let's not mix words as Christians, that here is my concern. Let's not pretend that there is some other gospel one can know God through other than through Christ. Our prayers only reach God's ears that God should pay heed to them through Christ. It is in Christ that any worship of God is legitimate and effectual. It is in and through Christ that anything we have to do with God whatsoever must be had. For Christ alone is our mediator, and only through Him can we boldly and directly approach God.

• 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, (1 Tim 2:3-5)

[RickD]

If there is another way man can be saved, why did Christ come to die? Surely God would have spared Christ's life if there was another way. Any other way.

[abelcainsbrother]

In one of the most iconic biblical passages when Jesus talks about who inherits the kingdom of heaven these words are most prolific;
When I was hungry you gave me something to eat,
When I was thirsty you gave me something to drink,
When I was a stranger you invited me in.
I needed clothes and you clothed me;
I was sick and you cared for me;
I was in prison and you visited me.

Then we have two groups
The humble that proclaim when did we ever did that for you?
According to Jesus when we did so for the very least.
Then the other group who asks the same question 'but Jesus we never neglected you' but he says depart from me I never knew you.

This does not take a theologian, or a scholar to get it right. It doesn't take a Catholic or Protestant, a Jehovah Witness nor a Seventh day Adventist.
Jesus told us clearly what it takes, it's not religious piety or observance. It doesn't matter how right you think you are in your stances.
Or theology or dogma.
It's so simple......
Give a damn, care deeply and compassionately about others.
We have made so many excuses as to why it's okay to be 'harsh' against certain groups of people, we have made an entire Christian culture surrounding such.
Our views, our ideals, our limitations, our weakness.
Jesus never said we should feed the hungry when we deem fit.
Cloth the destitute that we feel are worthy.
Home the stranger we think we should.
Visit those in jail that are innocent.
That speaks volumes to me.
It is the assumption that those in jail are guilty. I have read over the years writings of some that argue that Jesus was talking about those in prison that are innocent. What a way to twist the words of Jesus to suit our own limited understanding of compassion.
Prison and those that are imprisoned meant the same in Jesus day as it means today.
They are guilty. They are criminals.
Yet we are to treat them individually as if we are encountering Jesus.

The very least of us.

The lowest, the sickest, the most naked, the most guilty, and our greatest stranger. That is our least.

I am fed up with the modern version of Christianity that tells me I can choose who's worthy. Because Jesus tells me I can't.
I am tired with the lie that has infiltrated Christianity that we have the right to justify who's a stranger, who's sick enough, who's naked enough for our compassion because Jesus tells me it's the very bottom of the barrel that deserves it.
I am done with feeling like I have to justify a heart that fills humanity with hope, and compassion. That loves without reserve. Not in naive stupidity like I'm led to believe by some but in absolute, unwavering dignity and worth for everyone even if I think they have a long path to gain the Kingdom.
I give my Father and my saviour Jesus their place as judge in perfect fairness. That none of us are even remotely capable of.

Those words I will reiterate again;
When I was in jail you visited me,
Does that mean that we have to visit our local jail and visit all the inmates?
Or do we have to cloth every naked person?
Or is it a description of our heart.
Could we, would we, should we?

Jesus knows for each and the least of his what we would do.
Whether we are ever put in the position or not. It's not a condition of works it's a condition of the heart.
Believing in Jesus is through grace but it's not a get out of jail free card.
Belief means compassion, it compels love towards others, it encompasses a spirit of kindness.
Not when we think it should but at the hardest moments when we don't want too.

I have never interpreted them verses like they are things we Christians must do. No this is stuff that non-Christians need to do for Christians. Jesus puts the sheep(which we Christian's are)on one side and the goats on the other side.It is the Goats that need to observe these things. They are doing it unto Christ but angering him when they do not treat the church right - his Bride - the sheep. In other words it is non-Christians(they are called goats) that need to recognize these things -
When I was hungry you gave me something to eat,
When I was thirsty you gave me something to drink,
When I was a stranger you invited me in.
I needed clothes and you clothed me;
I was sick and you cared for me;
I was in prison and you visited me.

You anger Jesus when you don't treat his people well.

[melanie]

Abel that is not correct.
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
This has nothing to do with unbelievers.
It is clearly directed to those that proclaim to believe in His name.
When Jesus walked on this earth His greatest condemnation was not reserved for the adulter, the thief, or the tax collector, nor the prostitute.
The hypocrites, the Vipers, those that perverted the Word of God that Jesus held most accountable were not the unbelievers but rather the most religious pious of the time, the religious elders. The Pharisees.
They held the law, He instructed us to listen to them insomuch that they correctly speak the law but never to follow them as their hearts and actions betrayed them.
Abel it is a cop out to suggest Jesus was not speaking of believers. It is clearly obvious he was.
I think it is a typical misconception that has spread amongst Christianity to excuse a heart that is not willing to accept that without love, not worldly love, but rather the kind of love that existed in Christ that we will remain preaching to the choir but never getting on our hands and knees and in humility loving the very least of us.
Love sets us free.
It's our greatest commandment.
Unbelievers know no better but we do.
If we take His name then we better live by it.
That is what this scripture speaks of....
God doesn't reward anyone by works, it doesn't matter how many times you have read your scriptures, but how many times you've lived it.
It matters not how clearly you understand the law if your heart betrays you, what I mean by that is at anytime you place yourself above anybody, you look down on anyone, you hold someone in contempt, you are indifferent , you hold anything but love against another then you are doing so outside of the will of God.
I'm not saying this because I've nailed it, sooo far from it.
I fail everyday but I'm aware of what's required.
Love.


It was interesting to me how a post about just simply loving and understanding what is required of us, Having a heart that extends to all, to those that are least deserving turned into very quickly a question of salvation
Questions were asked about Jews and Muslims and even Christians.
I leave that up to God,
For He knows what we could possibly not.
When love and kindness and genorisity and thoughtfulness is what is required to truly reveal the heart then surely Our Father is the one in charge to expose us.
And we will be.
By His standards we will be judged.
By Jesus' words, self proclaimed belief does not cut it but real world application. You can't say you love others and not live it, you can't say you care and do otherwise, you can't say you feel for the downtrodden then be indifferent. You can't mock, look down upon, place yourself above, think yourself more worthy, be arrogant or ever think that you are in favour because we are all Our Fathers Children.
He loves the least of us as much as the First.

The least of us will be the first and the first the last.
A beautiful statement of how Jesus lived His life....
The meek shall inherit the Kingdom of Heaven
Let's get a little less impressed with ourselves cause we all fail but in failure is beauty and growth when we can embrace each other in love and humility to grow together in a path towards God.

[Kurieuo]

Then we have two groups
The humble that proclaim when did we ever did that for you?
According to Jesus when we did so for the very least.
Then the other group who asks the same question 'but Jesus we never neglected you' but he says depart from me I never knew you.

This is the topic of salvation, introduced by you, so the bent towards that topic was seeded in your original post.

This does not take a theologian, or a scholar to get it right. It doesn't take a Catholic or Protestant, a Jehovah Witness nor a Seventh day Adventist.
Jesus told us clearly what it takes, it's not religious piety or observance. It doesn't matter how right you think you are in your stances.
Or theology or dogma.
It's so simple......

You are theologising much. Discussing your doctrine, your own stances much.
Putting forward your Christian views much, "Jesus told us clearly..."
You are judging also, others, "it doesn't matter how right you think you are in your stances."

"It's so simple", what is so simple? That we ought to be kind.
Yes, of course, who disagrees. You're preaching to the choir.
So what then is the reason for the original post of yours here?
It seems to be one of judgement, but why here?
There is something more to it.

And then, I come to this part of your last post Melanie, no doubt partly directed at me since the "salvation" bent in your opening post that garnered my own interest:

It was interesting to me how a post about just simply loving and understanding what is required of us, Having a heart that extends to all, to those that are least deserving turned into very quickly a question of salvation

Sorry, but it seems clear to me your original post was not simply about loving and understanding, but also threw in the issue of salvation: "depart from me for I never knew you."

Most of us would agree with your sentiments of loving others, so what is there to clarify except to "like" such, and like members here did your opening post.

[melanie]

K, you have taken this up the wrong way..
This was never a topic of salvation but a matter of the heart.
The words of 'depart from me I never knew you' is entirely a heart felt matter. I make no assumptions as to who Jesus' is referring too. That is the point.
We are all accountable, we make our choices and we do the best we can.
I'm not looking for an argument surrounding my initial intention.
If we claim Christ then we claim His greatest commandments, two in fact.
Love God and love others.
I'm not at all sure why this turned into a debate in the manner it has.
Jesus did say 'depart from me,I'm never knew you'
He was talking about the religious hypocrites.
Either we honour Him with our actions or we fall short and live in a worldly manner.
It's not up to me to know your dirty laundry but I better know my own.
That's my point
We are so quick to make accusations and assumptions against others because that's the easy road, the hardest road is to strip ourselves bare and to ask those same questions against ourselves.
Every time I bet we stand just as stained as the person we are trying to slander.
The only way we rise is to realise and acknowledge our own struggles.
Growth, strength and triumph only ever rises through humility and self awareness and growth.

[melanie]

None of my post was directly nor partially directed towards you K.
If it was I would have made that clear.
I'm sorry that you felt that way.
I never directed any of it towards you, at all
I appreciate your honesty though and will always work through it.

[Kurieuo]

None of my post was directly nor partially directed towards you K.
If it was I would have made that clear.
I'm sorry that you felt that way.
I never directed any of it towards you, at all
I appreciate your honesty though and will always work through it.

Fair enough, nonetheless I did focus in on the issue of salvation so your comments were still relevant to me.

Though I focused upon this important element I saw in the first half of your post, I didn't intended to ignore your general admonition to Christians. That is, loving others and even people in prison rather than being selective of who deserves it. None of us deserve the grace God shows us in Christ.

So I fail to see how any real Christian could disagree with showing grace, love and compassion to others, no matter the person, as part of Christian living. I wouldn't pretend it is always easy, especially if you are the victim, loved one of a victim, who had a most atrocious act committed against them by a most vile person.

As a side, why the focus upon people in jail; is there something that happened, or were just thinking-thinking?

[Nessa]

These are my current thoughts..

When Jesus said to feed others, might that be applied deeper than to just mere food?
I remember Jesus saying to his disciples he had 'food' which his disciples knew nothing about..

What are we 'feeding' others?
Now yes these scriptures on the surface talk about physical food but I think it can be applied deeper.

So when we are physically feeding others we need to make sure what else we are 'feeding' them at the same time. What are we saying?

I think Philip touched on a point in another thread that I really liked. That when Jesus went to have dinner with sinners he wasnt just eating and drinking. He would have been very intentional with his words. Making people think again and again.

So I think really we should maybe be looking at these scriptures in that light too. That it's not just feeding people physical food but going one step further and caring enough to 'feed' them the truth as well. Both are needed ways of truly loving others. While nourishing the physical body, to try to nourish the spiritual part as well.

Cos if it's just a simple of matter of feeding people, visiting people in jail etc then anyone can do that.

Sometimes I think it can be appropriate to confront and air dirty laundry... E.G john the baptist airing the kings. Though he did lose his head for that didnt he?