Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusades

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#46

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:54 pm

I am going to ignore further posts because it is just ridicules.

But I will say this, you all fully well know that at one time there was a massive burning of copies of the Koran and other external sources, we cannot say for sure if the copies they have today are completely factually correct or not.
So calling Muhammed a paedophile, saying that Muslims are called to violence and all the other horrible things that you say against peoples closely held beliefs is so disingenuous that it is outright deceitful. I cannot fathom what type of influence you may have to say such things but they are not from the Christ that I have come to know and love.

I am not defending the Islamic faith, I think it is a horrible system of knowing God and treating others, but I will however treat it fairly as I will also treat it followers fairly.

This is the last I will say on this matter.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#47

Post by Philip » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:16 pm

Dan: saying that Muslims are called to violence and all the other horrible things that you say against peoples closely held beliefs is so disingenuous that it is outright deceitful.
Disingenuous?!!! Do the indicated Qur'an texts say what they say or not? It matters not one whit (other than the horrific repercussions, of course) how closely one holds to pagan teachings that encourage violence in the name of a false heathen god! Scripture calls such teachings as of the devil, and warns of the destruction of false prophets leading people into evil. You are in denial of what the Qur'an actually says!
Dan: I cannot fathom what type of influence you may have to say such things but they are not from the Christ that I have come to know and love.
The words of Scripture condemn false teachers, warns of the destruction such teachings bring, and of the fate of those wicked ones proliferating such poison. Have you not read the Bible?
Dan: I am not defending the Islamic faith, I think it is a horrible system of knowing God and treating others, but I will however treat it fairly as I will also treat it followers fairly.
Why would you consider false, dangerous pagan teachings as anything other than what Scripture tells us they are (they are of the devil)? It is God that condemns such - I'm only echoing what He says about such teachings. Now, sure, the people following Islam are deceived, and we should have hearts for them. And if we truly love and care about them, we will let them know (in the correct manner and tone) that these teachings are false and they will only lead to their destruction. And so THAT is what loving Muslims should produce in Christians - and not acting as if their beliefs are legitimate, merely because they are sincerely held. As we could say many people sincerely belief all kinds of dangerous stuff that will only lead them to hell.

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#48

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:34 pm

Sigh!! If I have to.............
Philip wrote:
Disingenuous?!!! Do the indicated Qur'an texts say what they say or not?
No it is not clear, it about as clear as mud, since there was so many texts destroyed it is very hard to say exactly what was written down by Muhammed with any accuracy at all, which is why I think it is best not to make silly accusations. It is clearly not inspired, but it could all be a work of fiction for all we know and not very historical at all.
It matters not one whit (other than the horrific repercussions, of course) how closely one holds to pagan teachings that encourage violence in the name of a false heathen god! Scripture calls such teachings as of the devil, and warns of the destruction of false prophets leading people into evil. You are in denial of what the Qur'an actually says!
I am in denial, hah, pot meet kettle. You are in denial that the Koran holds no historical value whatsoever and base your opinions on it being factually correct. Save your false teaching and false prophet speech as I already realise it is not an inspired work. Take off your ear muffs and listen to what people actually say.

The words of Scripture condemn false teachers, warns of the destruction such teachings bring, and of the fate of those wicked ones proliferating such poison. Have you not read the Bible?
Durr really, you don't say. I mean seriously when did I ever say it was an inspired work. I know exactly what it is, but I also know what it isn't and that my friend is what you should learn, instead of just sticking your fingers in your ears.


Why would you consider false, dangerous pagan teachings as anything other than what Scripture tells us they are (they are of the devil)? It is God that condemns such - I'm only echoing what He says about such teachings. Now, sure, the people following Islam are deceived, and we should have hearts for them. And if we truly love and care about them, we will let them know (in the correct manner and tone) that these teachings are false and they will only lead to their destruction. And so THAT is what loving Muslims should produce in Christians - and not acting as if their beliefs are legitimate, merely because they are sincerely held. As we could say many people sincerely belief all kinds of dangerous stuff that will only lead them to hell.
When did I ever call them not false and wrong teachings? Please quote me Phillip, once again you have bought false accusations against a brother in Christ.

How about you actually do some study and stop stirring up hatred and anger with your enemies. :shakehead:

Take your head out of the sand box.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#49

Post by Philip » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:08 pm

I am in denial, hah, pot meet kettle. You are in denial that the Koran holds no historical value whatsoever and base your opinions on it being factually correct.
Daniel, the REAL issue is with what the Qur'an definitely says NOW and as it is read by millions of Muslims. Yes, the past of what Mohammad originally wrote is perhaps somewhat murky. But that's NOT the REAL issue, is it? Also, you defended the text as defensive and reactionary to invasion and being attacked, and yet you say it's not even certain WHAT actually was written. So WHICH is it, as you assert it is about one thing, and then say even that is uncertain?

But the bottom line is that millions of Muslims believe the evil writings for which there is no argument of how they read and are widely interpreted in the hands of today's Muslims - and that is the REAL issue. I don't care how sincere anyone is, it's dark, violent, dangerous pagan stuff. Don't confuse historic authenticity with what today's Muslims believe, read and react to. It's dangerous stuff, made even more so because millions of Muslims 1) believe it is from their god and 2) many of them take the call to violent aggression and Jihad very seriously, precisely based upon what is in the Qur'an. This cannot be denied! To say this is attacking Muslims, well, it is attacking those believing and following the advocated violent actions, as well as the false, pagan teachings that are deluding and endangering our world. If this makes one prejudiced or intolerant - so be it. I don't like Nazi beliefs either! They're just different sides of the very same dark spiritual coin, in the teachings of both groups.

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#50

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:18 pm

Philip wrote:
Daniel, the REAL issue is with what the Qur'an definitely says NOW and as it is read by millions of Muslims.
So in your opinion was Muhammed a paedophile? According to the current Koran, yes maybe, but we know the current Koran may not be factually correct, so in actuality all we can say is we don't know. Was Muhammed telling Muslims to kill infidels for no reason, just because they were not of their faith, I think we can say we just don't know for sure, there is not enough internal context, but we do have external context which makes us think otherwise.
Yes, the past of what Mohammad originally wrote is perhaps somewhat murky. But that's NOT the REAL issue, is it? Also, you defended the text as defensive and reactionary to invasion and being attacked, and yet you say it's not even certain WHAT actually was written. So WHICH is it, as you assert it is about one thing, and then say even that is uncertain?
I said there are external historical sources (few, but they do exist), if you would actually listen to what I say, instead of telling me what I say, this might go better, or God forbid actually ask a question instead of just assuming.
But the bottom line is that millions of Muslims believe the evil writings for which there is no argument of how they read and are widely interpreted in the hands of today's Muslims - and that is the REAL issue. I don't care how sincere anyone is, it's dark, violent, dangerous pagan stuff. Don't confuse historic authenticity with what today's Muslims believe, read and react to. It's dangerous stuff, made even more so because millions of Muslims 1) believe it is from their god and 2) many of them take the call to violent aggression and Jihad very seriously, precisely based upon what is in the Qur'an. This cannot be denied! To say this is attacking Muslims, well, it is attacking those believing and following the advocated violent actions, as well as the false, pagan teachings that are deluding and endangering our world. If this makes one prejudiced or intolerant - so be it. I don't like Nazi beliefs either! Just differently sides of the very same spiritual coin, in the teachings of both groups.
Yep, I think we have already covered this quite extensively, I have nothing more to say, your false accusations and folly have lead you to believe things about my position which are not true, but whatever Phillip, I don't expect anything less from a lot of people here, you are one of many. I was just defending notions that may or may not be true but are being presented as fact, which is basically lying and I don't think it should be tolerated, period.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#51

Post by 1over137 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:54 pm

Dan,

The Muslims you talk to, if Quran cannot be historically trusted, how they determine which part of the Quran to believe and which part not? What is their Muslim faith based on?
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#52

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:12 am

1over137 wrote:Dan,

The Muslims you talk to, if Quran cannot be historically trusted, how they determine which part of the Quran to believe and which part not? What is their Muslim faith based on?
Hey I totally agree, that's why I said it is not an inspired work as everything in it may or may not be true.
Unfortunately they don't really like to discuss these things much and I tread carefully, unlike the nincompoops here. So I am unable to answer your question, but the book I read was quite enlightening and I highly recommend it.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#53

Post by RickD » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:18 am

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
1over137 wrote:Dan,

The Muslims you talk to, if Quran cannot be historically trusted, how they determine which part of the Quran to believe and which part not? What is their Muslim faith based on?
Hey I totally agree, that's why I said it is not an inspired work as everything in it may or may not be true.
Unfortunately they don't really like to discuss these things much and I tread carefully, unlike the nincompoops here. So I am unable to answer your question, but the book I read was quite enlightening and I highly recommend it.
So, let me get this straight. From your own words, everything in the Quran may be true?

And the Quran is quite enlightening?
Do you understand what enlightening means, when used to describe a religious text?

And, those of us here that point out the truth about this are nincompoops?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#54

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:39 am

RickD wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:
1over137 wrote:Dan,

The Muslims you talk to, if Quran cannot be historically trusted, how they determine which part of the Quran to believe and which part not? What is their Muslim faith based on?
Hey I totally agree, that's why I said it is not an inspired work as everything in it may or may not be true.
Unfortunately they don't really like to discuss these things much and I tread carefully, unlike the nincompoops here. So I am unable to answer your question, but the book I read was quite enlightening and I highly recommend it.
So, let me get this straight. From your own words, everything in the Quran may be true?

And the Quran is quite enlightening?
Do you understand what enlightening means, when used to describe a religious text?

And, those of us here that point out the truth about this are nincompoops?
Are you seriously being that dense, may or may not be true as a historical record, not its claims on the metaphysical.
When I said enlightening it was in reference to the books I have been reading and not the Koran, and yes they were enlightening, it gave me a better understanding of what Muslims actually believe and debunked most of the bull I hear regurgitated on here.
You have purposely misrepresented everything I have said, you have twisted them completely to suit your own needs, that makes you a flat out liar. You really should be praying for yourself Rick, you are the one who has been deceived, you think that lying about a brother in Christ is ok. :shakehead:

Thought I would paste the definition of enlightening because you seem to have a shaky grasp on what it means.
-give (someone) greater knowledge and understanding about a subject or situation.-
So yes learning about what Muslims actually believe and reading as much as I can about the external history of Muhammed has given me a greater knowledge and understanding of the subject. I suggest you do the same as education drives out fear and hatred, ignorance only perpetuates it.
Last edited by Danieltwotwenty on Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#55

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:41 am

Bart was right, this place is no longer a safe haven for Christians.
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#56

Post by RickD » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:42 am

Dan wrote:
You have purposely misrepresented everything I have said, you have twisted them completely to suit your own needs, that makes you a flat out liar. You really should be praying for yourself Rick, you are the one who has been deceived, you think that lying about a brother in Christ is ok.
Dan,

If you noticed, I put question marks at the end of my questions. When sentences are in the form of a question, it shows that I am asking you what you meant by what you said. It doesn't mean that I was putting words in your mouth, or stating what you meant.
Are you seriously being that dense, may or may not be true as a historical record, not its claims on the metaphysical.
So, in your opinion would it be historically true that God spoke to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel, which is the basis for the Quran?
When I said enlightening it was in reference to the books I have been reading and not the Koran, and yes they were enlightening, it gave me a better understanding of what Muslims actually believe and debunked most of the bull I hear regurgitated on here.
Ok, thanks for clarifying that it was a book about Islam. But I'm still concerned that you take the word of a Muslim over your brothers in Christ. You do realize that as far as Muslims believe, the end justifies the means? In other words, it's ok if they lie to you, if they are doing the will of their god.
Thought I would paste the definition of enlightening because you seem to have a shaky grasp on what it means.
-give (someone) greater knowledge and understanding about a subject or situation.-
So yes learning about what Muslims actually believe and reading as much as I can about the external history of Muhammed has given me a greater knowledge and understanding of the subject. I suggest you do the same as education drives out fear and hatred, ignorance only perpetuates it.
Dan,

I understand the meaning of enlightening. But there's another meaning when pertaining to something spiritual.
Enlighten-
give (someone) spiritual knowledge or insight.
And again, there's no hatred towards anyone from my end. I love Muslims. And I love you too. That's why I'm not afraid to tell you the truth. You need to hear it whether you like it or not. And like I said before, others here who are pointing out your errors, are doing it out of love, and concern for you.

I hope you keep that in mind through all of this.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#57

Post by Kurieuo » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:51 am

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
1over137 wrote:Dan,

The Muslims you talk to, if Quran cannot be historically trusted, how they determine which part of the Quran to believe and which part not? What is their Muslim faith based on?
Hey I totally agree, that's why I said it is not an inspired work as everything in it may or may not be true.
Unfortunately they don't really like to discuss these things much and I tread carefully, unlike the nincompoops here. So I am unable to answer your question, but the book I read was quite enlightening and I highly recommend it.
I wonder what would happen if you didn't tread carefully. y:-?

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#58

Post by RickD » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:51 am

Danieltwotwenty wrote:Bart was right, this place is no longer a safe haven for Christians.
I'm sorry you feel that way Daniel.

But if it weren't a safe haven, you wouldn't be allowed to give your opinion about Islam.

Try speaking out against Islam in a country under sharia law. See what that gets you.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#59

Post by Kurieuo » Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:15 am

Robert Spencer wrote:Islamic apologists in the West routinely deny that Muhammad married a child or that Islamic law sanctions child marriage. Stories like these show that they’re lying. In reality, few things are more abundantly attested in Islamic law than the permissibility of child marriage. Islamic tradition records that Muhammad’s favorite wife, Aisha, was six when Muhammad wedded her and nine when he consummated the marriage:

“The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death)” (Bukhari 7.62.88).

Another tradition has Aisha herself recount the scene:

The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah”s Blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah”s Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. (Bukhari 5.58.234).


Muhammad was at this time fifty-four years old.

Marrying young girls was not all that unusual for its time, but because in Islam Muhammad is the supreme example of conduct (cf. Qur’an 33:21), he is considered exemplary in this unto today. And so in April 2011, the Bangladesh Mufti Fazlul Haque Amini declared that those trying to pass a law banning child marriage in that country were putting Muhammad in a bad light: “Banning child marriage will cause challenging the marriage of the holy prophet of Islam, [putting] the moral character of the prophet into controversy and challenge.” He added a threat: “Islam permits child marriage and it will not be tolerated if any ruler will ever try to touch this issue in the name of giving more rights to women.” The Mufti said that 200,000 jihadists were ready to sacrifice their lives for any law restricting child marriage.

Likewise the influential website Islamonline.com in December 2010 justified child marriage by invoking not only Muhammad’s example, but the Qur’an as well:

The Noble Qur’an has also mentioned the waiting period [i.e. for a divorced wife to remarry] for the wife who has not yet menstruated, saying: “And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women, if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated” [Qur’an 65:4]. Since this is not negated later, we can take from this verse that it is permissible to have sexual intercourse with a prepubescent girl. The Qur’an is not like the books of jurisprudence which mention what the implications of things are, even if they are prohibited. It is true that the prophet entered into a marriage contract with A’isha when she was six years old, however he did not have sex with her until she was nine years old, according to al-Bukhari.

Other countries make Muhammad’s example the basis of their laws regarding the legal marriageable age for girls. Article 1041 of the Civil Code of the Islamic Republic of Iran states that girls can be engaged before the age of nine, and married at nine: “Marriage before puberty (nine full lunar years for girls) is prohibited. Marriage contracted before reaching puberty with the permission of the guardian is valid provided that the interests of the ward are duly observed.”

According to Amir Taheri in The Spirit of Allah: Khomeini and the Islamic Revolution (pp. 90-91), Iran’s Ayatollah Khomeini himself married a ten-year-old girl when he was twenty-eight. Khomeini called marriage to a prepubescent girl “a divine blessing,” and advised the faithful to give their own daughters away accordingly: “Do your best to ensure that your daughters do not see their first blood in your house.” When he took power in Iran, he lowered the legal marriageable age of girls to nine, in accord with Muhammad’s example.

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Re: Is this President really this ignorant? ISIS=The Crusad

#60

Post by Rob » Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:47 am

By and large, the Muslim people are peaceful and moral. It is true that you can use the Qur'an and Hadith to back this up. However, you can also use them to justify all kinds of terrible things and many do. It's a different situation entirely than things from the Old Testament where we can look into the context and historical background for insight. We can at least know what was written. What Dan said about the majority of early Qur'an texts being burned was true. This happened under the Caliph Uthman in 650 AD. In order to prevent pesky footnotes and different readings, he ordered all versions and writings to be gathered. From these he selected an official version and had the rest burned.
That being said, we can safely take the text at face value simply for the fact that other texts no longer exist. Until we can find many alternate manuscripts that describe how Aisha was actually 18 when they consummated their marriage, we can safely assume that the text as it is now is correct. If you try and say that we don't really know what the text says, then you may as well just throw the whole thing out.
If the Qur'an is truly the word of Allah, you'd think Allah would have guarded his word more carefully. (And understood Christian theology)
The Qur'an is not the word of Allah that existed forever in time (in Arabic). It is a view of the world from a 7th century man's understanding.

There are plenty of peaceful passages in the Qur'an. Muhammed was all about peace when Islam was the minority in Pagan polytheistic Mecca, but Islam is a political religion and cannot be rightly separated from government. The pattern with Islam is that once it becomes majority and in power, those violent passages take over.

I have a great deal of respect for the Muslim people. At least they understand their unworthiness before a Holy God. I pray that they come to a knowledge of Christ and cling to the cross. Islam is darkness.

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