Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
jpbg33
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Re: Eternal Security...

#226

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:05 pm

If you asked Jesus to fore give you of all your sins could he do that or does he have to leave some of them there so that the scripture is true that all presently at all times have sin in there lives.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#227

Post by Rob » Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:21 pm

jpbg33 wrote:I do not trust people because other people know about them what they say it says doesn't mean a thing to me like what I say doesn't mean a thing others either.
I don't understand this sentence. I think you're trying to say you don't care what others say the Bible means. Just like how others don't care what you think it means. I think you're wrong, though. Obviously we do care what you think it means or else this conversation wouldn't be happening right now. I don't want you to live in bondage thinking you have to earn your way into heaven- which is exactly what you're saying, you're just saying it in a different way by stating that once you're saved you must not ever sin again or else you lose your salvation. If what you believe is true, then not a single person will go to heaven. Not you, not me, not anyone else.
jpbg33 wrote: I forgot to put this in my earlier post you will not find in the bible were it says you can not loose your salvation either.
You also won't find in the bible that after you're saved, you can't ever sin again or else you'll lose your salvation. I know you want it to say that, for whatever strange reason, but it isn't there. Jesus won't lose those that are given to Him. If He could lose them, then He was lying in John 6. And you have yet to demonstrate how you're only given at the point of death and not while you're alive.
jpbg33 wrote: People say it says you have everlasting life so you most not able to loose it or it wouldn't be everlasting.

Wrong Adam and Eve had everlasting life and lost it and the devil before he fall from haeven and the other fallen angels had everlasting life and lost it to.

just because you loose something doesn't mean you never had it in the first places
Do you believe that Adam & Eve are in hell?
jpbg33 wrote:If you asked Jesus to fore give you of all your sins could he do that or does he have to leave some of them there so that the scripture is true that all presently at all times have sin in there lives.
Here's a better question. When Jesus forgives you for your sins, does He not know that you will sin again in the future?

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Re: Eternal Security...

#228

Post by RickD » Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:23 pm

jpbg33 wrote:I do not trust people because other people know about them what they say it says doesn't mean a thing to me like what I say doesn't mean a thing others either.

but anyways

I forgot to put this in my earlier post you will not find in the bible were it says you can not loose your salvation either.

People say it says you have everlasting life so you most not able to loose it or it wouldn't be everlasting.

Wrong Adam and Eve had everlasting life and lost it and the devil before he fall from haeven and the other fallen angels had everlasting life and lost it to.

just because you loose something doesn't mean you never had it in the first places
Yes, you are correct. I had a mind. And trying to make any sense of your garbled posts, has caused me to lose my mind. It's literally painful trying to read your posts. At this very moment, I'm sticking shish kabob skewers into my eyeballs, just to forget about the pain I have from reading your posts. :shock:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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jpbg33
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Re: Eternal Security...

#229

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:32 pm

What my meaning was is just because someone think the bible should be translated different then me I do not believe them on the merit that others believe them and just because I believe it should be translated the way it is doesn't mean y'all have to believe me.


If you asked Jesus to fore give you of all your sins could he do that or does he have to leave some of them there so that the scripture is true that all presently at all times have sin in there lives.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#230

Post by RickD » Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:35 pm

jpbg33 wrote:What my meaning was is just because someone think the bible should be translated different then me I do not believe them on the merit that others believe them and just because I believe it should be translated the way it is doesn't mean y'all have to believe me.


If you asked Jesus to fore give you of all your sins could he do that or does he have to leave some of them there so that the scripture is true that all presently at all times have sin in there lives.
Jesus already forgave all my sins. Past, present, and future. Saying that he didn't forgive all of my sins, would imply that his sacrifice was not enough.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Rob
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Re: Eternal Security...

#231

Post by Rob » Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:39 pm

jpbg33 wrote:What my meaning was is just because someone think the bible should be translated different then me I do not believe them on the merit that others believe them and just because I believe it should be translated the way it is doesn't mean y'all have to believe me.
Understood.
jpbg33 wrote: If you asked Jesus to fore give you of all your sins could he do that or does he have to leave some of them there so that the scripture is true that all presently at all times have sin in there lives.
Of course He forgives all your sins.

Now answer my question:
When Jesus forgives you for your sins, does He not know that you will sin again in the future?

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Re: Eternal Security...

#232

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:45 pm

then when someone is saved John 1:8 is not true

He knows everything but when he is to come back which he choose not to know.

But if it is in the future I have not don't it yet so there is no need to forgive me of it until I have done it because I am not guilt of it until I do it.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#233

Post by abelcainsbrother » Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:05 pm

jpbg33 wrote:then when someone is saved John 1:8 is not true

He knows everything but when he is to come back which he choose not to know.

But if it is in the future I have not don't it yet so there is no need to forgive me of it until I have done it because I am not guilt of it until I do it.
Nobody could go to heaven thinking like you do.Tell us what you can do to make your self more saved or what can you do to remove your sin? If you could do any of these things then there was no reason for Godvto send Jesus to save us and forgive all of our sins.You do not trust in Jesus and what he did for us and so you put yourself in bondage to the law you cannot keep instead of resting in the grace of the gospel of Jesus.

I bet you think if you do something wrong you have to ignore God for awhile and do good things to atone for your wrong,but if so,you are doing it for nothing and are in bondage.Please let go of the doctrine you got hold of and let Jesus set you free.Put your faith in him alone and what he did for you.Jesus does not need your help at all to make you righteous before God if you have been saved.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#234

Post by RickD » Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:05 pm

jpbg33 wrote:then when someone is saved John 1:8 is not true

He knows everything but when he is to come back which he choose not to know.

But if it is in the future I have not don't it yet so there is no need to forgive me of it until I have done it because I am not guilt of it until I do it.
1) John 1:8 is about John the baptist

2) A believer is not guilty of any sin. Christ has paid the necessary price. He was punished for our transgressions. Our sins were counted against him, not us.

Unless you're suggesting that he paid the price only for our past sins. And there needs to be another sacrifice for future sins.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Rob
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Re: Eternal Security...

#235

Post by Rob » Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:12 pm

jpbg33 wrote:then when someone is saved John 1:8 is not true
Hello again eisogesis. You're not welcome here.
jpbg33 wrote: He knows everything but when he is to come back which he choose not to know.
Please rephrase and back that up with scripture. I don't understand what you mean, but I don't want to put words in your mouth either.
jpbg33 wrote: But if it is in the future I have not don't it yet so there is no need to forgive me of it until I have done it because I am not guilt of it until I do it.
Does God know whether or not you'll ask for forgiveness for the next sin?
Look back at my car scenario. You sin and Jesus forgives you because you ask Him. Then you sin again and get nailed by a car, dying before you had a chance to ask for forgiveness. So you're saying He'll forgive you the first time even though He knows you'll end up in hell anyway because you won't have the chance to ask later? Do you see the problem here? Or are you saying unexpected deaths like that don't happen?

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Re: Eternal Security...

#236

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:36 pm

I do not believe I have to do any thing just ask him and he will.


1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

this said these things were write that you sin not and is you sin it doesn't say when or you will sin but if you sin so you do not have to but if we do we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous.

then it says the way we know that we know him is we keep his commandments

So I believe when we are saved we stop sinning and if we mess up Jesus will forgive us but we do not have to sin.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#237

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:38 pm

I believe you can back slid and whether God give you a chance to make thing right again it is up to him

looking at someone in a picture is not a sin but the thoughts you have about them my very will be

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Re: Eternal Security...

#238

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:41 pm

here it say he fore gives sin that are in the past

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

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Re: Eternal Security...

#239

Post by Jac3510 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:46 pm

jpbg33 wrote:then when someone is saved John 1:8 is not true
I take it you are referring to 1 John 1:8.

And I call bullocks. It's absolutely absurd to claim that verses that disprove your interpretation don't count because they disprove your interpretation. On what basis do you claim that it does not apply to believers? There is absolutely no indication in the text that it does not. On the contrary, the text strongly suggests exactly the opposite. Are you familiar with the concept of pronoun tracking? If not, let me demonstate it for you in teh first eight verses of 1 John 1:1-2:1. Here's the text, with the pronouns highlighted:
  • That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life—the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us—that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write to you that your joy may be full. This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin
So the first person pronouns are in blue. Second person are in red. Third person are in green. Notice that there is no conceptual change throughout. The firs person pronouns (I, we, us, our) always refer to the author's group. The secoond person pronouns (you) always refers to the readers as distinct from the authors' group. The third preson pronouns (he, him, his) always refers to God and Christ. The same is true in verse 8. In fact, when you read 1:8 in light of the entire passage, especially with 2:1, you see that John is using these pronouns on purpose to ensure that his readers--the church--doesn't sin, because claiming not to have sin or to be immune from sin both is sin and sets one up for further sin!

You have absolutely NO basis for claiming that 1:8 does not refer to Christians. On the contrary, the author is making a serious point to insist that he himself is among those who have to confess their sins. And that view makes particularly good sense in light of the situation the church John was writing was facing. He was facing a particular heresy known as proto-Gnosticism in which the belief was that Christians were immune from sin (and that because of some docetic ideas they held to about Jesus). The great irony, then, is that your position is far more closely aligned with the heretics John is attacking--He says the truth is not in such people--than with John's own view!

I suggest, then, strongly, that you repent of this heresy you've fallen into. It was one of the first ones that attacked the church. It was severe enough that the Holy Spirit inspired John to address it. I hope you change your mind.
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And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#240

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:52 pm

I do not think that 1 john 1:8 is not true. I am just pointing out that if you say that at no point in time is a person free of sin, then you can not say Jesus for give you of all your sin when you ask him to. I don't believe that is what that verse is saying and am pointing that out. I very much believe that it is for everyone. Someone used that verse to say that ones saved always saved was true because everyone has sin in there lives. so I was pointing out that it is not saying everyone are sinners. Because if Jesus for give us of all our sin if we ask him then if everyone has sin in there life at all time no matter what then Jesus must leave some there. I do not think he dose but I also do not think that verse mean the same as some has used it here either.

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