Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
Audie
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Re: Eternal Security...

#211

Post by Audie » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:45 am

Storyteller wrote:
jpbg33 wrote:Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

and we should live right now

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
If it was automatic that we would not sin after accepting Christ then we would not need instruction in righteousness, would we?

I believe that once we accept Christ as our Saviour then the Holy Spirit will help us live more Christ like lives. If we were somehow changed by our belief we wouldn`t need the Holy Spirit to guide us, would we?

The fact we do points to the fact that we will always inherently be sinners, it`s just that we can rest in the love of God and trust that as long as our hearts are open to Him, He wil never let us down. If He took away our salvation He would be letting us down. He would be breaking His promise to us and Christ died for nothing.
How about this for a "sin": the belief that you are free of it.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#212

Post by Storyteller » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:47 am

That, quite possibly, could be the biggest sin of all.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran

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Re: Eternal Security...

#213

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:05 am

Well first the NIV was not written according to the people that wrote it because the KJV was wrong in any way but it was written to make it easier to under stand.
Unlike what people say today the writers believe the KJV was right but it was difficult for the average person to under stand.

Now there were a lot of manuscripts that the NIV used that the KJV did not use but the ones that that NIV use had inaccuracy's in them so they can not be trusted.



Col_4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.

here is a verse that uses both perfect and complete and perfect here means perfect how we uses it and complete means how we uses it and this verses reaffirms the other verses use of the word perfect

this verse say basically the same thing as the other verses and uses both words so if a verse that is saying the same thing as another verse and uses both word then if you wont them to continue meaning the same thing you have to use the stronger work "perfect" without the work its meaning is completely different.

the there versions got it wrong there

one more so the bible so read be ye complete as your Father in heaven is complete so God is not perfect but complete

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Re: Eternal Security...

#214

Post by Byblos » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:18 am

Audie wrote:How about this for a "sin": the belief that you are free of it.
Well Audie, every now and again you toss out a gem that reveals there's still hope for you just yet. y>:D<

I will keep praying for you. y[-o<
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#215

Post by Rob » Fri Feb 20, 2015 9:34 am

jpbg33 wrote:Well first the NIV was not written according to the people that wrote it because the KJV was wrong in any way but it was written to make it easier to under stand.
Unlike what people say today the writers believe the KJV was right but it was difficult for the average person to under stand.


Did you even read what I wrote? I never said the NIV translators thought the KJV was wrong.
jpbg33 wrote: Now there were a lot of manuscripts that the NIV used that the KJV did not use but the ones that that NIV use had inaccuracy's in them so they can not be trusted.
Are you saying that the KJV translators wouldn't have used them? Again, read their introduction to the KJV and your entire position would be refuted. They didn't use them because they didn't have access to them. If they had, then they would have surely consulted them too. It really is that simple.
What inaccuracies are in the majority text that isn't part of the TR and how do you know they're inaccurate and that it's the TR that is the only real version?
jpbg33 wrote: Col_4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.
Uh uh... and I fail to see how this contradicts my position. We will stand perfect because Christ has atoned for us, not because we won't fail or sin. You sound like a Pelagian. This verse emphasizes that it is Jesus that will make us perfect since he's praying for it to happen.
jpbg33 wrote: the there versions got it wrong there
You have failed to show this and your insistence that the KJV is only true version is entirely circular. I know this is what you've been taught, but it's irrational and nothing but a thoroughly debunked conspiracy theory.
jpbg33 wrote: one more so the bible so read be ye complete as your Father in heaven is complete so God is not perfect but complete
Yes, another part of the sermon on the mount. Are you saying that you can be perfect then? Yes, of course you should be, but can you be without Jesus covering you? NO. He will make us perfect before the Father by no strength of our own.

If you think you can live perfectly, then you are dead wrong.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#216

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:32 am

What I am saying is that the people that wrote the KJV had the same meaning for the work complete and perfect as we have to day and they felt that perfect was better suted for the veres then complete so they put complet there. I trust there writings more then the writing of people today because if the people then wrote it wrong they would have been killed the people now days nothing would happen to them at all.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#217

Post by Rob » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:41 am

jpbg33 wrote:What I am saying is that the people that wrote the KJV had the same meaning for the work complete and perfect as we have to day and they felt that perfect was better suted for the veres then complete so they put complet there. I trust there writings more then the writing of people today because if the people then wrote it wrong they would have been killed the people now days nothing would happen to them at all.
And King James would have known whether they chose correctly, obviously. That's not why he needed translators in the first place or anything.
How do you know their use of the word "perfect" in this specific instance meant that we need to be perfect in the sense that we should never sin again?

Please address my other questions.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#218

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 10:54 am

all I know is that Jesus said be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

He said be ye perfect your Father in heaven is perfect

that whole section of scripture was talking about how to act while you were no earth so when he said be perfect just as God is perfect he meant to be perfect now not that we will be made perfect when we get to heaven and that was what Paul was talking about when he said perfect and that is why the KJV is right to say perfect there not complete or to leave it out all together.

I'm sure King James would have had no problem making sure it was done right there were more translators then the ones that translated it.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#219

Post by Rob » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:03 am

Well I guess that means that we're all going to hell then- yourself included. Because you nor anyone else will ever be perfect while they're living.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#220

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:07 am

We may not continually be perfect but when we find we have made a mistake then we should repent then in Gods eyes we are perfect.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#221

Post by Rob » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:10 am

jpbg33 wrote:We may not continually be perfect but when we find we have made a mistake then we should repent then in Gods eyes we are perfect.
So let's say you're a believer in Christ. You're walking down the street and see an attractive woman and you lust after her in your heart. Suddenly a car comes from nowhere and nails you. Boom. Dead. No chance to ask God for forgiveness.
I guess you're going to hell then?

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Re: Eternal Security...

#222

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:18 am

I believe you would but, that is not how it normally happens God gives people a space to repent most of the time because he loves us and if he doesn't that is his decision

The bible says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God it doesn't say all has to sin it says has sinned big differents.

One other thing is you will never see in the bible were it says it is ok to sin after you are saved but you will see were it says not to sin and where it says Christians do not sin.

People read into scripture to get that it is ok.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#223

Post by Jac3510 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:36 am

Actually, it says "all sin and fall short" is, in my opinion, the better translation. Even the widely recognized Dana and Mantey recognize that in their hugely influential (if not a bit outdated) A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament. If you'd like to read an argument defending that translation (among other points), see something I wrote here (p. 4-5).

Also, I've not been following this thread, but 1 John 1:8 seems pretty clear on the matter to me. If you say you don't have sin, you are a liar, so says the Bible!
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#224

Post by Rob » Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:49 am

jpbg33 wrote:I believe you would...
Well that's about all I need to hear then. Your view of sin is heretical, my friend.
jpbg33 wrote: The bible says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God it doesn't say all has to sin it says has sinned big differents.
I never said the bible says you have to sin. As if God forces you to sin. That's silly. The point was that you still will. Not that it's okay, but that you still will. However, as you grow closer to God you should hopefully sin less and less.
jpbg33 wrote: One other thing is you will never see in the bible were it says it is ok to sin after you are saved but you will see were it says not to sin and where it says Christians do not sin.

People read into scripture to get that it is ok.
Again, nobody is saying that the bible says it's ok to sin. Have fun in your Pelagian sinless perfection cult.
Jac3510 wrote:Actually, it says "all sin and fall short" is, in my opinion, the better translation. Even the widely recognized Dana and Mantey recognize that in their hugely influential (if not a bit outdated) A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament. If you'd like to read an argument defending that translation (among other points), see something I wrote here (p. 4-5).

Also, I've not been following this thread, but 1 John 1:8 seems pretty clear on the matter to me. If you say you don't have sin, you are a liar, so says the Bible!
Yeah, but they weren't on the 1611 council and King James wasn't standing over them with lifted sword, so obviously that means that their translation can't be trusted.

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Re: Eternal Security...

#225

Post by jpbg33 » Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:57 pm

I do not trust people because other people know about them what they say it says doesn't mean a thing to me like what I say doesn't mean a thing others either.

but anyways

I forgot to put this in my earlier post you will not find in the bible were it says you can not loose your salvation either.

People say it says you have everlasting life so you most not able to loose it or it wouldn't be everlasting.

Wrong Adam and Eve had everlasting life and lost it and the devil before he fall from haeven and the other fallen angels had everlasting life and lost it to.

just because you loose something doesn't mean you never had it in the first places

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