A brick wall.

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KMan87
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Re: A brick wall.

#46

Post by KMan87 » Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:05 am

Silver, I understand completely what you are saying. We are very similar in very many ways. I also came to God through intellectual means. And above that, I always prided myself on having the right answer for every objection. That being said, I have been deeply humbled these past few years. I once thought for sure that I could defeat evolution, now I see that there are still huge issues with the theory, but that they could be solved, and if they are it doesn't have to defeat my faith because Genesis says nothing about how God created the animals "according to their kind", and many wonderful and faithful Christians throughout the years have accepted evolution (C.S. Lewis comes to mind).

Moving to the multiverse.... I put up the quotes from Anthony Flew to show that even if the multiverse is true it doesn't eliminate the need for a creator, on the contrary, in his mind it exacerbated the need for a creator. Keep in mind that he wrote that book before there was any evidence of the multiverse, but just much speculation. He didn't think at all that it eliminated the need for God. Also I chose Flew because he was not a Christian . That may seem weird, but often Christians are accused of bending science to meet their needs. Here was a stark atheist who thought that the laws of nature required an explanation, and that explanation was God. I highly recommend Flew's book "There is A God" if you have not read it.

Also, the basic proofs of logic that no doubt led you to God in the first place still hold. It is still impossible to transverse an infinite, this applies to time as well as to causes. Something had to be uncaused, and that uncaused thing had to act of its own free will to create, and that act of creation had to be outside of time or else we never would have gotten from negative infinity time to now, there always could have been one more moment before this one, and so on. Also there is the issue of having an infinite number of actual things. William Craig has famously expounded on the idea of infinity as well: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/forming- ... e-addition


I am not the smartest person in the world and a lot of my doubts come from the fact that most of the smartest people in the world disagree with my views. But we should be humble and recognize that for most of human history the smartest people thought our universe was eternal, and they were wrong. Now, in an effort to save materialism, they have to posit an infinite regress of causes and an infinite number of universes which even seems to contradict what the other really smart folks are saying (BVG theorem). Also, the really smart folk over at Biologos have a page about the fine tuning of the universe in which they briefly discuss inflation and the multiverse, basically coming to the conclusion that inflation explains away our fine tuning by replacing it with more fine tuning http://biologos.org/questions/fine-tuning .

Then, against this backdrop of the intellectual we have Paul in 1st Corinthians 1:18-24:

" For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1:19 For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will thwart the cleverness of the intelligent.” 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the expert in the Mosaic law? Where is the debater of this age? Has God not made the wisdom of the world foolish? 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world by its wisdom did not know God, God was pleased to save those who believe by the foolishness of preaching. 1:22 For Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks ask for wisdom, 1:23 but we preach about a crucified Christ, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles. 1:24 But to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. 1:25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. "

As for your personal encounter with God, I am still praying for it. I don't know in what way God will reveal himself to you, but If my experience holds true for you it will be very personal and probably subtle. I hope when it happens you are willing to share with us. Keep in mind from my own experiences this doesn't eliminate doubts, but it does help to keep you going in those dark moments.


**This is based on my understanding of current multiverse theories, if I am mistaken, please correct me. Also, I understand that we are supposed to be just one link in an infinite chain, but that is impossible based on my understanding of Dr. Craig's argument.

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Re: A brick wall.

#47

Post by KMan87 » Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:09 am

Silver, I see you are from the UK, just curious what part? I am from the U.S. but my mother and oldest brother were born and raised in Felixstowe, Suffolk. I have visited England many times and I absolutely love the history and the landscapes ( I really don't mind the rain either :) )

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Re: A brick wall.

#48

Post by Silvertusk » Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:29 am

KMan87 wrote:Silver, I see you are from the UK, just curious what part? I am from the U.S. but my mother and oldest brother were born and raised in Felixstowe, Suffolk. I have visited England many times and I absolutely love the history and the landscapes ( I really don't mind the rain either :) )
I am originally from Wales - but now live in a town just outside called Cheltenham. And it does rain..........alot......

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Re: A brick wall.

#49

Post by RickD » Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:08 am

Silvertusk wrote:
KMan87 wrote:Silver, I see you are from the UK, just curious what part? I am from the U.S. but my mother and oldest brother were born and raised in Felixstowe, Suffolk. I have visited England many times and I absolutely love the history and the landscapes ( I really don't mind the rain either :) )
I am originally from Wales - but now live in a town just outside called Cheltenham. And it does rain..........alot......
So you're English now? I knew something was "different" about you! :pound:
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Re: A brick wall.

#50

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:19 pm

Silvertusk wrote:
Danieltwotwenty wrote:Enjoy my homeland, I have never been to Perth but I have heard good things, I am from Victoria.
Will do.

We are staying with family and they live on the beach. And they have a swimming pool. Can't wait.
I have family in England and in Perth, I wonder haha.

I also have my mothers natural family in Israel, she was adopted.
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Re: A brick wall.

#51

Post by DRDS » Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:04 pm

Hey Silvertusk, after reading this I decided to help you out by asking the folks at the Christian Apologetics Alliance. It's a group on facebook and many top apologists use it. So far, I've already got a few responses and I think you might find some of it helpful. Here is the link to the facebook group, granted, in order to see it, you must have a facebook account. But regardless here is the link...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/caallia ... up_comment

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Re: A brick wall.

#52

Post by DRDS » Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:05 pm

And if it will let me, here is what I could copy and paste from that discussion if you don't want to sign up to facebook and join that group...

Greetings everyone. At the apologetics message board I hang out at www.discussions.godandscience.com I noticed that some people were expressing concerns about the recent scientific studies on inflation and the suggestion that the multiverse theory could indeed be true. I think this article elaborates on it even more. http://www.geek.com/science/we-probably ... e-1589284/ Anyways, I was wondering if you all had any good responses or counter evidence to these recent findings and claims. Thank you all for your time, GB.

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For resources and information on Psychology and Bible study
Like · · Share · 21 hours ago

Neil Shenvi On my understanding, inflation was already widely accepted among cosmologists, so I don't see how this new data changes anything.

Also, it depends on what kind of 'level' of multiverse is being proposed here. If it's a Level I multiverse which just means 'the universe is much bigger than we can ever observe,' I don't see how this has any relevance to theism or any of our standard arguments. Higher-level multiverses seem far more speculative and I would be astonished if these data gave even the slightest hint about whether they exist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse

Multiverse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org
The multiverse (or meta-universe) is the hypothetical set of infinite or finite ...See More
21 hours ago · Like

Adam Korman There's a bunch of maybes in that read, but for a moment I'll concede, let there be a multi-verse. It only sets the question of God back on step. What/who caused the bang that created the multiverse? Now I am not the sharpest in the tool kit, but what I know as of today, is that this doesn't make God go away. Sorry this may seem like a simple response, I am learning and know I have a long way to go.
21 hours ago · Like · 1

Larry Lund OK, let's drop these in here again (for those who are willing).

"... if any level of the multiverse actually exists then it is harmonious with theism."
http://sententias.org/.../EPS-Paper-God-and-the...

Physical Evidence of the Multiverse
http://sententias.org/.../physical-evidence-of-the.../

Living in the Multiverse–Is it Science?
http://sententias.org/.../living-in-the ... erse-is-it.../

http://sententias.org/.../EPS-Paper-God-and-the...
&
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYHoaQjq ... e=youtu.be
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-m ... troduction
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-musings...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-musings---are...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-m ... -measuring...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-musings---i-m-a...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-m ... -boltzmann...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../do-infinite- ... es-explain...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../testing-the- ... -principle
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-musings---are-we...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-musings---the...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-musings---does-it...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-musings-what-is...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-musings-does...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-musings-how-does...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-musings---what-if...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-m ... --evidence...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-musings...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-musings---the-lhc...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-musings...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-m ... -is-it-god...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-musings-not-fine...
&
http://www.reasons.org/articles/the-nat ... multiverse
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-m ... ine-tuning...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-musings---before...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-m ... -reviewing...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-musings-more...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-musings---typing...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../life-in-the- ... addressing...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-musings...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-m ... the-double...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-m ... what-about...
&
http://www.reasons.org/.../multiverse-m ... t-testable

http://www.reasons.org/.../ezine/2011/ezine-2011-04.pdf
[see p. 15]
21 hours ago · Like · 1

Samuel Ronicker Wow, that's a lot of reading! I've never been "afraid" of the multiverse theories for many reasons, not the least of which is the idea that it really only pushes the idea of a creator back one level and makes Him more powerful. Also, it's certainly not contrary to the Bible per se, and all the theories that pertain to multiverse(s) as I've read/watched on YouTube seem INCREDIBLY far fetched and purely theoretical/speculative.
10 hours ago · Like

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Re: A brick wall.

#53

Post by Silvertusk » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:04 am

Thank you very much DRDS. I really appreciate you going to all that trouble. I will work my way through those links - I have read some of the reasons.org ones before.

I think the level 1 Multiverse idea sits very nicely with me and it is kinda of what Byblos was hinting at with his idea (correct me if I am wrong). The idea that we are the first universe to get things going but there will be others to come.

God Bless

Silvertusk.

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Re: A brick wall.

#54

Post by Byblos » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:38 am

Silvertusk wrote:I think the level 1 Multiverse idea sits very nicely with me and it is kinda of what Byblos was hinting at with his idea (correct me if I am wrong). The idea that we are the first universe to get things going but there will be others to come.
Correct, but I would say there's only the potential for other universes to develop. Whether or not they are actualized, God only knows. :wink: .
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Re: A brick wall.

#55

Post by Silvertusk » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:53 am

Byblos wrote:
Silvertusk wrote:I think the level 1 Multiverse idea sits very nicely with me and it is kinda of what Byblos was hinting at with his idea (correct me if I am wrong). The idea that we are the first universe to get things going but there will be others to come.
Correct, but I would say there's only the potential for other universes to develop. Whether or not they are actualized, God only knows. :wink: .

Although reading up on it that might be a Level 2 Multiverse. I think a level 1 is something different. Need Hana to explain this in laymans terms. Just reading something else that states that a level 2 Multiverse is what inflation points to which is almost like a chaotic inflation where bubble universe pop out as the "Space" keeps inflating. But again this will have a beginning and it still ties in with Byblos theory. Some one help me here?

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Re: A brick wall.

#56

Post by 1over137 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:33 am

I was not cosmologist. Now being a Christian (and on this forum) I really need to educate myself in cosmology.
Though now am mostly educating myself in theology. :)
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
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Re: A brick wall.

#57

Post by DRDS » Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:54 pm

Silvertusk wrote:Thank you very much DRDS. I really appreciate you going to all that trouble. I will work my way through those links - I have read some of the reasons.org ones before.

I think the level 1 Multiverse idea sits very nicely with me and it is kinda of what Byblos was hinting at with his idea (correct me if I am wrong). The idea that we are the first universe to get things going but there will be others to come.

God Bless

Silvertusk.

In addition, if you are on Facebook or later choose to join, be sure to add Dr. Jeff Zweerink to your friends list, he's with RTB and one of the areas he specializes in is with dealing with the atheist argument concerning the multiverse. https://www.facebook.com/zweerink?fref=ts I even have a book by him called "Who's afraid of the multiverse". You can find it here:

http://shop.reasons.org/Who-s-Afraid-of ... /l0803.htm

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Re: A brick wall.

#58

Post by Silvertusk » Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:21 am

I have joined both those Facebook links that you sent and dropped a message to Zweerink and brought his book. Thanks for all the help DRDS.

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Re: A brick wall.

#59

Post by DRDS » Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:09 pm

Thank you, glad I could help. :D

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Re: A brick wall.

#60

Post by KMan87 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:54 am

Silver, Just curious...has God spoken to you in any specific way lately?

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