Mathematical Probability Jesus was the Christ

vanquish29 · Post by **vanquish29** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:39 am

In his book, ‘Science Speaks’ Peter Stoner explores the mathematical probability that Jesus was the Christ by looking at Messianic prophecy. Stoner was chairman of the mathematics and astronomy departments at Pasadena City College until 1953 when he moved to Westmont College in Santa Barbara, California. There he served as chairman of the science division.

Dr. David R. Reagan explains, “Stoner calculated the probability of ONLY EIGHT Messianic prophecies being fulfilled in the life of Jesus. As you read through these prophecies, you will see that all estimates were calculated as conservatively as possible. Keep in mind Jesus fulfilled 108. Accidental fulfillment of these prophecies is simply beyond the realm of possibility.

The Messiah will be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2).
The average population of Bethlehem from the time of Micah to the present (1958) divided by the average population of the earth during the same period = 7,150/2,000,000,000 or 2.8×105.
A messenger will prepare the way for the Messiah (Malachi 3:1).
One man in how many, the world over, has had a forerunner (in this case, John the Baptist) to prepare his way?
Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.
The Messiah will enter Jerusalem as a king riding on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9).
One man in how many, who has entered Jerusalem as a ruler, has entered riding on a donkey?
Estimate: 1 in 100 or 1×102.
The Messiah will be betrayed by a friend and suffer wounds in His hands (Zechariah 13:6).
One man in how many, the world over, has been betrayed by a friend, resulting in wounds in his hands?
Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.
The Messiah will be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12).
Of the people who have been betrayed, one in how many has been betrayed for exactly 30 pieces of silver?
Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.
The betrayal money will be used to purchase a potter’s field (Zechariah 11:13).
One man in how many, after receiving a bribe for the betrayal of a friend, has returned the money, had it refused, and then experienced it being used to buy a potter’s field?
Estimate: 1 in 100,000 or 1×105.
The Messiah will remain silent while He is afflicted (Isaiah 53:7).
One man in how many, when he is oppressed and afflicted, though innocent, will make no defense of himself?
Estimate: 1 in 1,000 or 1×103.
The Messiah will die by having His hands and feet pierced (Psalm 22:16).
One man in how many, since the time of David, has been crucified?
Estimate: 1 in 10,000 or 1×104.

Multiplying all these probabilities together produces a number (rounded off) of 1×1028. Dividing this number by an estimate of the number of people who have lived since the time of these prophecies (88 billion) produces a probability of all 8 prophecies being fulfilled accidently in the life of one person. That probability is 1 in 1017 or 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. That’s one in one hundred quadrillion.”

Stoner writes, “…we take 10^17 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover the state two feet deep. Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly. Blindfold a man and tell him that he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing just eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man, from their day to the present time, providing they wrote in their own wisdom.

“Now these prophecies were either given by inspiration of God or the prophets just wrote them as they thought they should be. In such a case the prophets had just one chance in 10^17 of having them come true in any man, but they all came true in Christ [Mashiach].

“This means that the fulfillment of just eight prophecies alone proves that God inspired the writing of those [eight] prophecies to a definiteness which lacks only one chance in 10^17 of being absolute.” - Stoner, Peter W. Science Speaks. Chicago: Moody Press, 1963, pp 100-107

Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): "When I began my career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced atheist. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable logic of my own special branch of physics." Note: Tipler since has actually converted to Christianity, hence his latest book, The Physics Of Christianity.

Alexander Polyakov (Soviet mathematician): "We know that nature is described by the best of all possible mathematics because God created it."

Edward Milne (British cosmologist): "As to the cause of the Universe, in context of expansion, that is left for the reader to insert, but our picture is incomplete without Him [God]."

Barry Parker (cosmologist): "Who created these laws? There is no question but that a God will always be needed."
"The universe had a beginning. There was once nothing and now there is something." Janna Levin,

The data from cosmology shows that the universe had a beginning, when space, time, matter and energy exploded out from the cosmic event known as the Big Bang. The Bible tell us that God "spreads out the heavens" (an expanding universe)4 and that the visible parts were made from the invisible (Hebrews 11:3),5 both ideas supported by modern cosmology. Is this why atheists are so anxious to try to get rid of a beginning to the universe?

heres a youtube video where a atheist loses to a christian about science
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KBx4vvlbZ8

source www.godandscience.org
http://frontlineapologetics.com/2011/12 ... he-christ/

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:44 am

I don't want to be a buzzkill, and I think we can use this style argument in our arguments, but the way this is presented doesn't work for several reasons.

1. Many of the prophecies here are not true prophecies (in the sense that they were written with the intention of predicting the future). The apostolic use of OT scripture to point to Jesus has long been a subject of scholarly debate, because it is incredibly obvious that the NT writers took verses that clearly were not predictive of the coming Christ in their original context and then applied them to Jesus (e.g., Matt. Matt. 2:15; Hos 11:1). Now, it would be silly to just write this off as the apostles trying to find anything they could to support their claims about Christ. They clearly had an apologetic value. But that apologetic is not in shear prediction, which this approach requires. So, to take a specific example from Stoner's argument, it is not fair to say that the OT predicts the Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver. Zech. 11:12 (like Hos 11:1) is simply not Messianic in its context. As such, this verse is only persuasive when we already see that Jesus is the Messiah.

2. Some of the prophecies Stoner mentions could have (and in fact, probably were) fulfilled intentionally. So while it may be true that the probability of someone riding into Jerusalem on a donkey is 1 in 100, in fact, anyone who wanted to claim that they were the Messiah would and could have done that themselves. Interestingly, thats one of the important points of that passage. In so riding, Jesus was making a very public claim about who He was. Scholars have long used this passage (rightfully so) when considering the question of Jesus' self-understanding. But for that reason, this prophecy doesn't work for Stoner's mathematical argument (the best he could say is that the chances of someone thinking they were the Messiah is one in so and so, and use this verse as evidence that Jesus fits that description).

3. Some prophetic fulfillment is easy to fabricate. It would have been, for instance, easy to simply write that Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Now, at least on this point Stoner could defend his argument based on the historical reliability of the birth-narrative, but from a pragmatic perspective, it should be clear enough that this is not the first place one should go in making this type of claim.

It would do Stoner and others following this approach to use true, objective, predictive prophecies of Christ that could not be intentionally fulfilled. For instance:

1. The Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah, specifically from the line of David (Gen 50:10; 2 Sam 7:5-16, etc)
2. The Messiah would die a vicarious death for Israel (Isa. 53)
3. The Messiah (though a Judahite) would be considered a priest (and that in a Jewish context!) (Ps 110)
4. The Messiah would die between 30 and 33 AD (Dan 9:24-27)

These are the kinds of things that make for a sturdier argument, in my opinion. You'll have to be prepared to do some defense of the historicity of the gospels in any case, but these claims are much easier to defend than, say, the claim that He was born in Bethlehem (although, again, if you can make the defense, that's a good one to add to the list, too).

My $.02.

vanquish29 · Post by **vanquish29** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:26 pm

there are objective truths and logical absolutes that the probability is true, you didnt comment on frank tipler saying that physics and math and the design of the universe is proof of Gods existence. your presupposing the probability to be false without any good arguments.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/messiah.html (check this source)

Answering Atheist's Objections
Atheism and the multiverse
A perfect god would not need to create anything
Concerning atheist attacks on theism
I don't see any convincing evidence for the existence of God.
Can God make a rock so big that He can't pick it up?
God cannot exist because His attributes would require limits
There is no proof that God exists
If God is unchanging, why does the world change if it reveals God?
Only atheism offers a predictable universe
All of reality and God's existence
If God exists, then...
If God is infinitely good, then...
Any entity that is not the source of all power within reality is not God
If everything needs a creator, then who or what created God?
Who made God? Crashing Richard Dawkins’s Boeing 747
Lawrence Krauss and the atheist definition of nothing
How can something that cannot be described be said to exist?
Why do you believe in Jesus but not Santa Claus?
Why believe in Christianity over all other religions?
Debunking the idea of a just deity
Religion precludes ethics
Answering the transcendental argument for the nonexistence of God
Atheists say that prayer does not work.
Questions for Christians from an atheist
How do you know the God of the Bible is real and not fiction?

christian response

Has anyone provided a proof of God’s inexistence?
Not even close.

Has quantum cosmology explained the emergence of the universe or why it is here?
Not even close.

Have the sciences explained why our universe seems to be fine-tuned to allow for the existence of life?
Not even close.

Are physicists and biologists willing to believe in anything so long as it is not religious thought?
Close enough.

Has rationalism in moral thought provided us with an understanding of what is good, what is right, and what is moral?
Not close enough.

Has secularism in the terrible twentieth century been a force for good?
Not even close to being close.

Is there a narrow and oppressive orthodoxy of thought and opinion within the sciences?
Close enough.

Does anything in the sciences or in their philosophy justify the claim that religious belief is irrational?
Not even ballpark.

Is scientific atheism a frivolous exercise in intellectual contempt?
Dead on.

1. Q. What is your only comfort in life and death?

A. That I am not my own,[1] but belong with body and soul, both in life and in death,[2] to my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ.[3] He has fully paid for all my sins with His precious blood[4], and has set me free from all the power of the devil.[5] He also preserves me in such a way[6] that without the will of my heavenly Father not a hair can fall from my head;[7] indeed, all things must work together for my salvation.[8] Therefore, by His Holy Spirit He also assures me of eternal life[9] and makes me heartily willing and ready from now on to live for Him.[10]

[1] I Cor. 6:19, 20 [2] Rom. 14:7-9. [3] I Cor. 3:23; Tit. 2:14. [4] I Pet. 1:18, 19; I John 1:7; 2:2. [5] John 8:34-36; Heb. 2:14, 15; I John 3:8. [6] John 6:39, 40; 10:27-30; II Thess. 3:3; I Pet. 1:5. [7] Matt. 10:29-31; Luke 21:16-18. [8] Rom. 8:28. [9] Rom. 8:15, 16; II Cor. 1:21, 22; 5:5; Eph. 1:13-14. [10] Rom. 8:14.

2. Q. What do you need to know in order to live and die in the joy of this comfort?

A. First, how great my sins and misery are;[1] second, how I am delivered from all my sins and misery;[2] third, how I am to be thankful to God for such deliverance.[3]

[1] Rom. 3:9, 10; I John 1:10. [2] John 17:3; Acts 4:12; 10:43. [3] Matt. 5:16; Rom. 6:13; Eph. 5:8-10; I Pet. 2:9, 10.

3.Q. From where do you know your sins and misery?

A. From the law of God.[1]

[1] Rom. 3: 20;

4. Q. What does God's law require of us?

A. Christ teaches us this in a summary in Matthew 22: You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.[1] This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.[2]

[1] Deut. 6:5. [2] Lev. 19:18.

5. Q. Can you keep all this perfectly?

A. No,[1] I am inclined by nature to hate God and my neighbour.[2]

[1] Rom. 3:10, 23; I John 1:8, 10. [2] Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Jer. 17:9; Rom. 7:23; 8:7; Eph. 2:3; Tit. 3:3.

6. Q. Did God, then, create man so wicked and perverse?

A. No, on the contrary, God created man good[1] and in His image,[2] that is, in true righteousness and holiness,[3] so that he might rightly know God His Creator,[4] heartily love Him, and live with Him in eternal blessedness to praise and glorify Him.[5]

[1] Gen. 1:31. [2] Gen. 1:26, 27. [3] Eph. 4:24. [4] Col. 3:10. [5] Ps. 8.

7. Q. From where, then, did man's depraved nature come?

A. From the fall and disobedience of our first parents, Adam and Eve, in Paradise,[1] for there our nature became so corrupt[2] that we are all conceived and born in sin.[3]

[1] Gen. 3. [2] Rom. 5:12, 18, 19. [3] Ps. 51:5.

8. Q. But are we so corrupt that we are totally unable to do any good and inclined to all evil?

A. Yes,[1] unless we are regenerated by the Spirit of God.[2]

[1] Gen. 6:5; 8:21; Job 14:4; Is. 53:6. [2] John 3:3-5.

9. Q. Is God, then, not unjust by requiring in His law what man cannot do?

A. No, for God so created man that he was able to do it.[1] But man, at the instigation of the devil,[2] in deliberate disobedience[3] robbed himself and all his descendants of these gifts.[4]

[1] Gen. 1:31. [2] Gen. 3:13; John 8:44; I Tim. 2:13, 14. [3] Gen. 3:6. [4] Rom. 5:12, 18, 19.

10. Q. Will God allow such disobedience and apostasy to go unpunished?

A. Certainly not. He is terribly displeased with our original sin as well as our actual sins. Therefore He will punish them by a just judgment both now and eternally,[1] as He has declared:[2] Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them (Galatians 3:10).

[1] Ex. 34:7; Ps. 5:4-6; 7:10; Nah. 1:2; Rom. 1:18; 5:12; Eph. 5:6; Heb. 9:27. [2] Deut. 27:26.

11. Q. But is God not also merciful?

A. God is indeed merciful,[1] but He is also just.[2] His justice requires that sin committed against the most high majesty of God also be punished with the most severe, that is, with everlasting, punishment of body and soul.[3]

[1] Ex. 20:6; 34:6, 7; Ps. 103:8, 9. [2] Ex. 20:5; 34:7; Deut. 7:9-11; Ps. 5:4-6; Heb. 10:30, 31. [3] Matt. 25:45,46.

12. Q. Since, according to God's righteous judgment we deserve temporal and eternal punishment, how can we escape this punishment and be again received into favour?

A. God demands that His justice be satisfied.[1] Therefore full payment must be made either by ourselves or by another.[2]

[1] Ex. 20:5; 23:7; Rom. 2:1-11. [2] Is. 53:11; Rom. 8:3, 4.

13. Q. Can we ourselves make this payment?

A. Certainly not. On the contrary, we daily increase our debt.[1]

[1] Ps. 130:3; Matt. 6:12; Rom. 2:4, 5.

14. Q. Can any mere creature pay for us?

A. No. In the first place, God will not punish another creature for the sin which man has committed.[1] Furthermore, no mere creature can sustain the burden of God's eternal wrath against sin and deliver others from it.[2]

[1] Ezek. 18:4, 20; Heb. 2:14-18. [2] Ps. 130:3; Nah. 1:6.

15. Q. What kind of mediator and deliverer must we seek?

A. One who is a true[1] and righteous[2] man, and yet more powerful than all creatures; that is, one who is at the same time true God.[3]

[1] I Cor. 15:21; Heb. 2:17. [2] Is. 53:9; II Cor. 5:21; Heb. 7:26. [3] Is. 7:14; 9:6; Jer. 23:6; John 1:1; Rom. 8:3, 4.

16. Q. Why must He be a true and righteous man?

A. He must be a true man because the justice of God requires that the same human nature which has sinned should pay for sin.[1] He must be a righteous man because one who himself is a sinner cannot pay for others.[2]

[1] Rom. 5:12, 15; I Cor. 15:21; Heb. 2:14-16. [2] Heb. 7:26, 27; I Pet. 3:18.

17. Q. Why must He at the same time be true God?

A. He must be true God so that by the power of His divine nature[1] He might bear in His human nature the burden of God's wrath,[2] and might obtain for us and restore to us righteousness and life.[3]

[1] Is. 9:5. [2] Deut. 4:24; Nah. 1:6; Ps. 130:3. [3] Is. 53:5, 11; John 3:16; II Cor. 5:21.

18. Q. But who is that Mediator who at the same time is true God and a true and righteous man?

A. Our Lord Jesus Christ,[1] whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption (I Corinthians 1:30).

[1] Matt. 1:21-23; Luke 2:11; I Tim. 2:5; 3:16.

19. Q. From where do you know this?

A. From the holy gospel, which God Himself first revealed in Paradise.[1] Later, He had it proclaimed by the patriarchs[2] and prophets,[3] and foreshadowed by the sacrifices and other ceremonies of the law.[4] Finally, He had it fulfilled through His only Son.[5]

[1] Gen. 3:15. [2] Gen. 12:3; 22:18; 49:10. [3] Is. 53; Jer. 23:5, 6; Mic. 7:18-20; Acts 10:43; Heb. 1:1. [4] Lev. 1:7; John 5:46; Heb. 10:1-10. [5] Rom. 10:4; Gal. 4:4, 5; Col. 2:17.

20. Q. Are all men, then, saved by Christ just as they perished through Adam?

A. No. Only those are saved who by a true faith are grafted into Christ and accept all His benefits.[1]

[1] Matt. 7:14; John 1:12; 3:16, 18, 36; Rom. 11:16-21.

21. Q. What is true faith?

A. True faith is a sure knowledge whereby I accept as true all that God has revealed to us in His Word.[1] At the same time it is a firm confidence[2] that not only to others, but also to me,[3] God has granted forgiveness of sins, everlasting righteousness, and salvation,[4] out of mere grace, only for the sake of Christ's merits.[5] This faith the Holy Spirit works in my heart by the gospel.[6]

[1] John 17:3, 17; Heb. 11:1-3; James 2:19. [2] Rom. 4:18-21; 5:1; 10:10; Heb. 4:16. [3] Gal. 2:20. [4] Rom. 1:17; Heb. 10:10. [5] Rom.3:20-26; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8-10. [6] Acts 16:14; Rom. 1:16; 10:17; I Cor. 1:21.

22. Q. What, then, must a Christian believe?

A. All that is promised us in the gospel,[1] which the articles of our catholic and undoubted Christian faith teach us in a summary.

[1] Matt. 28:19; John 20:30, 31.

23. Q. What are these articles?

A. III.1.I believe in God the Father almighty, III.1. Creator of heaven and earth. III.2.I believe in Jesus Christ, III.2. His only begotten Son, our Lord; III.3. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, III.3. born of the virgin Mary; III.4. suffered under Pontius Pilate, III.4. was crucified, dead, and buried; III.4. He descended into hell; III.5. On the third day He arose from the dead; III.6. He ascended into heaven, III.6. and sits at the right hand III.6. of God the Father almighty; III.7. from there He will come to judge III.7. the living and the dead. III.8. I believe in the Holy Spirit; III.9. I believe a holy catholic Christian church, III.9. the communion of saints; III.10. the forgiveness of sins; III.11. the resurrection of the body; III.12. and the life everlasting.

24. Q. How are these articles divided?

A. Into three parts: the first is about God the Father and our creation; the second about God the Son and our redemption; the third about God the Holy Spirit and our sanctification.

25. Q. Since there is only one God,[1] why do you speak of three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

A. Because God has so revealed Himself in His Word[2] that these three distinct persons are the one, true, eternal God.

[1] Deut. 6:4; Is. 44:6; 45:5; I Cor. 8:4, 6. [2] Gen. 1:2, 3; Is. 61:1; 63:8-10; Matt. 3:16, 17; 28:18, 19; Luke 4:18; John 14:26; 15:26; II Cor. 13:14; Gal. 4:6; Tit. 3:5, 6. God the Father and Our Creation

26. Q. What do you believe when you say: I believe in God the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth?

A. That the eternal Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who out of nothing created heaven and earth and all that is in them,[1] and who still upholds and governs them by His eternal counsel and providence,[2] is, for the sake of Christ His Son, my God and my Father.[3] In Him I trust so completely as to have no doubt that He will provide me with all things necessary for body and soul,[4] and will also turn to my good whatever adversity He sends me in this life of sorrow.[5] He is able to do so as almighty God,[6] and willing also as a faithful Father.[7]

[1] Gen. 1 and 2; Ex. 20:11; Job 38 and 39; Ps. 33:6; Is. 44:24; Acts 4:24; 14:15. [2] Ps. 104:27-30; Matt. 6:30; 10:29; Eph. 1:11. [3] John 1:12, 13; Rom. 8:15, 16; Gal. 4:4-7; Eph. 1:5. [4] Ps. 55:22; Matt. 6:25, 26; Luke 12:22-31. [5] Rom. 8:28. [6] Gen. 18:14; Rom. 8:31-39. [7] Matt. 6:32, 33; 7:9-11.

27. Q. What do you understand by the providence of God?

A. God's providence is His almighty and ever present power,[1] whereby, as with His hand, He still upholds heaven and earth and all creatures,[2] and so governs them that leaf and blade, rain and drought, fruitful and barren years, food and drink, health and sickness, riches and poverty,[3] indeed, all things, come not by chance[4] but by His fatherly hand.[5]

[1] Jer. 23:23, 24; Acts 17:24-28. [2] Heb. 1:3. [3] Jer. 5:24; Acts 14:15-17; John 9:3; Prov. 22:2. [4] Prov. 16:33. [5] Matt. 10:29.

28. Q. What does it benefit us to know that God has created all things and still upholds them by His providence?

A. We can be patient in adversity,[1] thankful in prosperity,[2] and with a view to the future we can have a firm confidence in our faithful God and Father that no creature shall separate us from His love;[3] for all creatures are so completely in His hand that without His will they cannot so much as move.[4]

[1] Job. 1:21, 22; Ps. 39:10; James 1:3. [2] Deut. 8:10; I Thess. 5:18. [3] Ps. 55:22; Rom. 5:3-5; 8:38, 39. [4] Job 1:12; 2:6; Prov. 21:1; Acts 17:24-28.

29. Q. Why is the Son of God called Jesus, that is, Saviour?

A. Because He saves us from all our sins,[1] and because salvation is not to be sought or found in anyone else.[2]

[1] Matt. 1:21; Heb. 7:25. [2] Is. 43:11; John 15:4, 5; Acts 4:11, 12; I Tim. 2:5.

30. Q. Do those believe in the only Saviour Jesus who seek their salvation and well-being from saints, in themselves, or anywhere else?

A. No. Though they boast of Him in words, they in fact deny the only Saviour Jesus.[1] For one of two things must be true: either Jesus is not a complete Saviour, or those who by true faith accept this Saviour must find in Him all that is necessary for their salvation.[2]

[1] I Cor. 1:12, 13; Gal. 5:4. [2] Col. 1:19, 20; 2:10; I John 1:7.

31. Q. Why is He called Christ, that is, Anointed?

A. Because He has been ordained by God the Father, and anointed with the Holy Spirit,[1] to be our chief Prophet and Teacher,[2] who has fully revealed to us the secret counsel and will of God concerning our redemption;[3] our only High Priest,[4] who by the one sacrifice of His body has redeemed us,[5] and who continually intercedes for us before the Father;[6] and our eternal King,[7] who governs us by His Word and Spirit, and who defends and preserves us in the redemption obtained for us.[8]

[1] Ps. 45:7 (Heb. 1:9); Is. 61:1 (Luke 4:18; Luke 3:21, 22. [2] Deut. 18:15 (Acts 3:22). [3] John 1:18; 15:15. [4] Ps. 110:4 (Heb. 7:17). [5] Heb. 9:12; 10:11-14. [6] Rom. 8:34; Heb. 9:24; I John 2:1. [7] Zach. 9:9; (Matt. 21:5); Luke 1:33. [8] Matt. 28:18-20; John 10:28; Rev. 12:10, 11.

32. Q. Why are you called a Christian?

A. Because I am a member of Christ by faith[1] and thus share in His anointing,[2] so that I may as prophet confess His Name,[3] as priest present myself a living sacrifice of thankfulness to Him,[4] and as king fight with a free and good conscience against sin and the devil in this life,[5] and hereafter reign with Him eternally over all creatures.[6]

[1] I Cor. 12:12-27. [2] Joel 2:28 (Acts 2:17); I John 2:27. [3] Matt. 10:32; Rom 10:9, 10; Heb. 13:15. [4] Rom. 12:1; I Pet. 2:5, 9. [5] Gal. 5:16, 17; Eph. 6:11; I Tim. 1:18, 19. [6] Matt. 25:34; II Tim. 2:12.

33. Q. Why is He called God's only begotten Son, since we also are children of God?

A. Because Christ alone is the eternal, natural Son of God.[1] We, however, are children of God by adoption, through grace, for Christ's sake.[2]

[1] John 1:1-3, 14, 18; 3:16; Rom. 8:32; Heb. 1; I John 4:9. [2] John 1:12; Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 4:6; Eph. 1:5, 6.

34. Q. Why do you call Him our Lord?

A. Because He has ransomed us, body and soul,[1] from all our sins, not with silver or gold but with His precious blood,[2] and has freed us from all the power of the devil to make us His own possession.[3]

[1] I Cor. 6:20; I Tim. 2:5, 6. [2] I Peter 1:18, 19. [3] Col. 1:13, 14; Heb. 2:14, 15.

35. Q. What do you confess when you say: He was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary?

A. The eternal Son of God, who is and remains true and eternal God,[1] took upon Himself true human nature from the flesh and blood of the virgin Mary,[2] through the working of the Holy Spirit.[3] Thus He is also the true seed of David,[4] and like His brothers in every respect,[5] yet without sin.[6]

[1] John 1:1; 10:30-36; Rom. 1:3; 9:5; Col. 1:15-17; I John 5:20. [2] Matt. 1:18-23; John 1:14; Gal. 4:4; Heb. 2:14. [3] Luke 1:35. [4] II Sam. 7:12-16; Ps. 132:11; Matt. 1:1; Luke 1:32; Rom. 1:3. [5] Phil. 2:7; Heb. 2:17. [6] Heb. 4:15; 7:26, 27.

36. Q. What benefit do you receive from the holy conception and birth of Christ?

A. He is our Mediator,[1] and with His innocence and perfect holiness covers, in the sight of God, my sin, in which I was conceived and born.[2]

[1] I Tim. 2:5, 6; Heb. 9:13-15. [2] Rom. 8:3, 4; II Cor. 5:21; Gal. 4:4, 5; I Pet. 1:18, 19.

37. Q. What do you confess when you say that He suffered?

A. During all the time He lived on earth, but especially at the end, Christ bore in body and soul the wrath of God against the sin of the whole human race.[1] Thus, by His suffering, as the only atoning sacrifice,[2] He has redeemed our body and soul from everlasting damnation,[3] and obtained for us the grace of God, righteousness, and eternal life.[4]

[1] Is. 53; I Tim. 2:6; I Pet. 2:24; 3:18. [2] Rom. 3:25; I Cor. 5:7; Eph. 5:2; Heb. 10:14; I John 2:2; 4:10. [3] Rom. 8:1-4; Gal. 3:13; Col. 1:13; Heb. 9:12; I Pet 1:18, 19. [4] John 3:16; Rom. 3:24-26; II Cor. 5:21; Heb. 9:15.

38. Q. Why did He suffer under Pontius Pilate as judge?

A. Though innocent, Christ was condemned by an earthly judge,[1] and so He freed us from the severe judgment of God that was to fall on us.[2]

[1] Luke 23:13-24; John 19:4, 12-16. [2] Is. 53:4, 5; II Cor. 5:21; Gal. 3:13.

39. Q. Does it have a special meaning that Christ was crucified and did not die in a different way?

A. Yes. Thereby I am assured that He took upon Himself the curse which lay on me, for a crucified one was cursed by God.[1]

[1] Deut. 21:23; Gal. 3:13.

40. Q. Why was it necessary for Christ to humble Himself even unto death?

A. Because of the justice and truth of God[1] satisfaction for our sins could be made in no other way than by the death of the Son of God.[2]

[1] Gen. 2:17. [2] Rom. 8:3; Phil. 2:8; Heb. 2:9, 14, 15.

41. Q. Why was he buried?

A. His burial testified that He had really died.[1]

[1] Is. 53:9; John 19:38-42; Acts 13:29; I Cor. 15:3,4.

42. Q. Since Christ has died for us, why do we still have to die?

A. Our death is not a payment for our sins, but it puts an end to sin and is an entrance into eternal life.[1]

[1] John 5:24; Phil. 1:21-23; I Thess. 5:9, 10.

43. Q. What further benefit do we receive from Christ's sacrifice and death on the cross?

A. Through Christ's death our old nature is crucified, put to death, and buried with Him,[1] so that the evil desires of the flesh may no longer reign in us,[2] but that we may offer ourselves to Him as a sacrifice of thankfulness.[3]

[1] Rom. 6:5-11; Col. 2:11, 12. [2] Rom. 6:12-14. [3] Rom. 12:1; Eph. 5:1, 2.

44. Q. Why is there added: He descended into hell?

A. In my greatest sorrows and temptations I may be assured and comforted that my Lord Jesus Christ, by His unspeakable anguish, pain, terror, and agony, which He endured throughout all His sufferings[1] but especially on the cross, has delivered me from the anguish and torment of hell.[2]

[1] Ps. 18:5, 6; 116:3; Matt. 26:36-46; 27:45, 46; Heb. 5:7-10. [2] Is. 53.

45. Q. How does Christ's resurrection benefit us?

A. First, by His resurrection He has overcome death, so that He could make us share in the righteousness which He had obtained for us by His death.[1] Second, by His power we too are raised up to a new life.[2] Third, Christ's resurrection is to us a sure pledge of our glorious resurrection.[3]

[1] Rom. 4:25; I Cor. 15:16-20; I Pet. 1:3-5. [2] Rom. 6:5-11; Eph. 2:4-6; Col. 3:1-4. [3] Rom. 8:11; I Cor. 15:12-23; Phil. 3:20, 21.

46. Q. What do you confess when you say, He ascended into heaven?

A. That Christ, before the eyes of His disciples, was taken up from the earth into heaven,[1] and that He is there for our benefit[2] until He comes again to judge the living and the dead.[3]

[1] Mark 16:19; Luke 24:50, 51; Acts 1:9-11. [2] Rom. 8:34; Heb. 4:14; 7:23-25; 9:24. [3] Matt. 24:30; Acts 1:11.

47. Q. Is Christ, then, not with us until the end of the world, as He has promised us?[1]

A. Christ is true man and true God. With respect to His human nature He is no longer on earth,[2] but with respect to His divinity, majesty, grace, and Spirit He is never absent from us.[3]

[1] Matt. 28:20. [2] Matt. 26:11; John 16:28; 17:11; Acts 3:19-21; Heb. 8:4. [3] Matt. 28:18-20; John 14:16-19; 16:13.

48. Q. But are the two natures in Christ not separated from each other if His human nature is not present wherever His divinity is?

A. Not at all, for His divinity has no limits and is present everywhere.[1] So it must follow that His divinity is indeed beyond the human nature which He has taken on and nevertheless is within this human nature and remains personally united with it.[2]

[1] Jer. 23:23, 24; Acts 7:48, 49. [2] John 1:14; 3:13; Col. 2:9.

49. Q. How does Christ's ascension into heaven benefit us?

A. First, He is our Advocate in heaven before His Father.[1] Second, we have our flesh in heaven as a sure pledge that He, our Head, will also take us, His members, up to Himself.[2] Third, He sends us His Spirit as a counter-pledge,[3] by whose power we seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God, and not the things that are on earth.[4]

[1] Rom. 8:34; I John 2:1. [2] John 14:2; 17:24; Eph. 2:4-6. [3] John 14:16; Acts 2:33; II Cor. 1:21, 22; 5:5. [4] Col. 3:1-4.

50. Q. Why is it added, And sits at the right hand of God?

A. Christ ascended into heaven to manifest Himself there as Head of His Church,[1] through whom the Father governs all things.[2]

[1] Eph. 1:20-23; Col. 1:18. [2] Matt. 28:18; John 5:22, 23.

51. Q. How does the glory of Christ, our Head, benefit us?

A. First, by His Holy Spirit He pours out heavenly gifts upon us, His members.[1] Second, by His power He defends and preserves us against all enemies.[2]

[1] Acts 2:33; Eph. 4:7-12. [2] Ps. 2:9; 110:1, 2; John 10:27-30; Rev. 19:11-16.

52. Q. What comfort is it to you that Christ will come to judge the living and the dead?

A. In all my sorrow and persecution I lift up my head and eagerly await as judge from heaven the very same person who before has submitted Himself to the judgment of God for my sake, and has removed all the curse from me.[1] He will cast all His and my enemies into everlasting condemnation, but He will take me and all His chosen ones to Himself into heavenly joy and glory.[2]

[1] Luke 21:28; Rom. 8:22-25; Phil. 3:20,21; Tit. 2:13, 14. [2] Matt. 25:31-46; I Thess. 4:16, 17; II Thess. 1:6-10.

53. Q. What do you believe concerning the Holy Spirit?

A. First, He is, together with the Father and the Son, true and eternal God.[1] Second, He is also given to me,[2] to make me by true faith share in Christ and all His benefits,[3] to comfort me,[4] and to remain with me forever.[5]

[1] Gen. 1:1, 2; Matt. 28:19; Acts 5:3, 4; I Cor. 3:16. [2] I Cor. 6:19; II Cor. 1:21, 22; Gal. 4:6; Eph. 1:13. [3] Gal. 3:14; I Pet. 1:2. [4] John 15:26; Acts 9:31. [5] John 14:16, 17; I Pet. 4:14.

54. Q. What do you believe concerning the holy catholic Christian church?

A. I believe that the Son of God,[1] out of the whole human race,[2] from the beginning of the world to its end,[3] gathers, defends, and preserves for Himself, [4] by His Spirit and Word,[5] in the unity of the true faith,[6] a church chosen to everlasting life.[7] And I believe that I am[8] and forever shall remain a living member of it.[9]

[1] John 10:11; Acts 20:28; Eph. 4:11-13; Col. 1:18. [2] Gen. 26:4; Rev. 5:9. [3] Is. 59:21; I Cor. 11:26. [4] Ps. 129:1-5; Matt. 16:18; John 10:28-30. [5] Rom. 1:16; 10:14-17; Eph. 5:26. [6] Acts 2:42-47; Eph. 4:1-6. [7] Rom. 8:29; Eph. 1:3-14. [8] I John 3:14, 19-21. [9] Ps. 23:6; John 10:27, 28; I Cor. 1:4-9; I Pet. 1:3-5.

55. Q. What do you understand by the communion of saints?

A. First, that believers, all and everyone, as members of Christ have communion with Him and share in all His treasures and gifts.[1] Second, that everyone is duty-bound to use his gifts readily and cheerfully for the benefit and well-being of the other members.[2]

[1] Rom. 8:32; I Cor. 6:17; 12:4-7, 12, 13; I John 1:3. [2] Rom. 12:4-8; I Cor. 12:20-27; 13:1-7; Phil. 2:4-8.

56. Q. What do you believe concerning the forgiveness of sins?

A. I believe that God, because of Christ's satisfaction, will no more remember my sins,[1] nor my sinful nature, against which I have to struggle all my life,[2] but He will graciously grant me the righteousness of Christ, that I may never come into condemnation.[3]

[1] Ps. 103:3, 4, 10, 12; Mic. 7:18, 19; II Cor. 5:18-21; I John 1:7; 2:2. [2] Rom. 7:21-25. [3] John 3:17, 18; 5:24; Rom. 8:1, 2.

57. Q. What comfort does the resurrection of the body offer you?

A. Not only shall my soul after this life immediately be taken up to Christ, my Head,[1] but also this my flesh, raised by the power of Christ, shall be reunited with my soul and made like Christ's glorious body.[2]

[1] Luke 16:22; 23:43; Phil. 1:21-23. [2] Job 19:25, 26; I Cor. 15:20, 42-46, 54; Phil. 3:21; I John 3:2.

58. Q. What comfort do you receive from the article about the life everlasting?

A. Since I now already feel in my heart the beginning of eternal joy, [1] I shall after this life possess perfect blessedness, such as no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man conceived-- a blessedness in which to praise God forever.[2]

[1] John 17:3; Rom. 14:17; II Cor. 5:2, 3. [2] John 17:24; I Cor. 2:9.

59. Q. But what does it help you now that you believe all this?

A. In Christ I am righteous before God and heir to life everlasting.[1]

[1] Hab. 2:4; John 3:36; Rom. 1:17; 5:1, 2.

60. Q. How are you righteous before God?

A. Only by true faith in Jesus Christ.[1] Although my conscience accuses me that I have grievously sinned against all God's commandments, have never kept any of them,[2] and am still inclined to all evil,[3] yet God, without any merit of my own,[4] out of mere grace,[5] imputes to me the perfect satisfaction, righteousness, and holiness of Christ.[6] He grants these to me as if I had never had nor committed any sin, and as if I myself had accomplished all the obedience which Christ has rendered for me,[7] if only I accept this gift with a believing heart.[8]

[1] Rom. 3:21-28; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8, 9; Phil. 3:8-11. [2] Rom. 3:9, 10. [3] Rom. 7:23. [4] Deut. 9:6; Ezek. 36:22; Tit. 3:4, 5. [5] Rom. 3:24; Eph. 2:8. [6] Rom. 4:3-5; II Cor. 5:17-19; I John 2:1, 2. [7] Rom. 4:24, 25; II Cor. 5:21. [8] John 3:18; Acts 16:30, 31; Rom. 3:22.

61. Q. Why do you say that you are righteous only by faith?

A. Not that I am acceptable to God on account of the worthiness of my faith, for only the satisfaction, righteousness, and holiness of Christ is my righteousness before God.[1] I can receive this righteousness and make it mine my own by faith only.[2]

[1] I Cor. 1:30, 31; 2:2. [2] Rom. 10:10; I John 5:10-12.

62. Q. But why can our good works not be our righteousness before God, or at least a part of it?

A. Because the righteousness which can stand before God's judgment must be absolutely perfect and in complete agreement with the law of God,[1] whereas even our best works in this life are all imperfect and defiled with sin.[2]

[1] Deut. 27:26; Gal. 3:10. [2] Is. 64:6.

63. Q. But do our good works earn nothing, even though God promises to reward them in this life and the next?

A. This reward is not earned[1]; it is a gift of grace.[2]

[1] Matt. 5:12; Heb. 11:6. [2] Luke 17:10; II Tim. 4:7, 8.

64. Q. Does this teaching not make people careless and wicked?

A. No. It is impossible that those grafted into Christ by true faith should not bring forth fruits of thankfulness.[1]

[1] Matt. 7:18; Luke 6:43-45; John 15:5.

65. Q. Since then faith alone makes us share in Christ and all His benefits, where does this faith come from?

A. From the Holy Spirit,[1] who works it in our hearts by the preaching of the gospel,[2] and strengthens it by the use of the sacraments.[3]

[1] John 3:5; I Cor. 2:10-14; Eph. 2:8; Phil. 1:29. [2] Rom. 10:17; I Pet. 1:23-25. [3] Matt. 28:19, 20; I Cor. 10:16.

66. Q. What are the sacraments?

A. The sacraments are holy, visible signs and seals. They were instituted by God so that by their use He might the more fully declare and seal to us the promise of the gospel.[1] And this is the promise: that God graciously grants us forgiveness of sins and everlasting life because of the one sacrifice of Christ accomplished on the cross.[2]

[1] Gen. 17:11; Deut. 30:6; Rom. 4:11 [2] Matt. 26:27, 28; Acts 2:38; Heb. 10:10.

67. Q. Are both the Word and the sacraments then intended to focus our faith on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross as the only ground of our salvation?

A. Yes, indeed. The Holy Spirit teaches us in the gospel and assures us by the sacraments that our entire salvation rests on Christ's one sacrifice for us on the cross.[1]

[1] Rom. 6:3; I Cor. 11:26; Gal. 3:27.

68. Q. How many sacraments has Christ instituted in the new covenant?

A. Two: holy baptism and the holy supper.[1]

[1] Matt. 28:19, 20; I Cor. 11:23-26. Holy Baptism

69. Q. How does holy baptism signify and seal to you that the one sacrifice of Christ on the cross benefits you?

A. In this way: Christ instituted this outward washing[1] and with it gave the promise that, as surely as water washes away the dirt from the body, so certainly His blood and Spirit wash away the impurity of my soul, that is, all my sins.[2]

[1] Matt. 28:19. [2] Matt. 3:11; Mark 16:16; John 1:33; Acts 2:38; Rom. 6:3, 4; I Pet. 3:21.

70. Q. What does it mean to be washed with Christ's blood and Spirit?

A. To be washed with Christ's blood means to receive forgiveness of sins from God, through grace, because of Christ's blood, poured out for us in His sacrifice on the cross.[1] To be washed with His Spirit means to be renewed by the Holy Spirit and sanctified to be members of Christ, so that more and more we become dead to sin and lead a holy and blameless life.[2]

[1] Ez. 36:25; Zech. 13:1; Eph. 1:7; Heb. 12:24; I Pet. 1:2; Rev. 1:5; 7:14. [2] John 3:5-8; Rom. 6:4; I Cor. 6:11; Col. 2:11, 12.

71. Q. Where has Christ promised that He will wash us with His blood and Spirit as surely as we are washed with the water of baptism?

A. In the institution of baptism, where He says: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned (Mark 16:16). This promise is repeated where Scripture calls baptism the washing of regeneration and the washing away of sins (Titus 3:5; Acts 22:16).

72. Q. Does this outward washing with water itself wash away sins?

A. No, only the blood of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit cleanse us from all sins.[1]

[1] Matt. 3:11; I Pet. 3:21; I John 1:7.

73. Q. Why then does the Holy Spirit call baptism the washing of regeneration and the washing away of sins?

A. God speaks in this way for a good reason. He wants to teach us that the blood and Spirit of Christ remove our sins just as water takes away dirt from the body.[1] But, even more important, He wants to assure us by this divine pledge and sign that we are as truly cleansed from our sins spiritually as we are bodily washed with water.[2]

[1] I Cor. 6:11; Rev. 1:5; 7:14. [2] Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Rom. 6:3, 4; Gal. 3:27.

74. Q. Should infants, too, be baptized?

A. Yes. Infants as well as adults belong to God's covenant and congregation.[1] Through Christ's blood the redemption from sin and the Holy Spirit, who works faith, are promised to them no less than to adults.[2] Therefore, by baptism, as sign of the covenant, they must be grafted into the Christian church and distinguished from the children of unbelievers.[3] This was done in the old covenant by circumcision,[4] in place of which baptism was instituted in the new covenant.[5]

[1] Gen. 17:7; Matt. 19:14. [2] Ps. 22:11; Is. 44:1-3; Acts 2:38, 39; 16:31. [3] Acts 10:47; I Cor. 7:14. [4] Gen. 17:9-14. [5] Col. 2: 11-13.

75. Q. How does the Lord's Supper signify and seal to you that you share in Christ's one sacrifice on the cross and in all His gifts?

A. In this way: Christ has commanded me and all believers to eat of this broken bread and drink of this cup in remembrance of Him. With this command He gave these promises:[1] First, as surely as I see with my eyes the bread of the Lord broken for me and the cup given to me, so surely was His body offered for me and His blood poured out for me on the cross. Second, as surely as I receive from the hand of the minister and taste with my mouth the bread and the cup of the Lord as sure signs of Christ's body and blood, so surely does He Himself nourish and refresh my soul to everlasting life with His crucified body and shed blood.

[1] Matt. 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-24; Luke 22:19, 20; I Cor. 11:23-25.

76. Q. What does it mean to eat the crucified body of Christ and to drink His shed blood?

A. First, to accept with a believing heart all the suffering and the death of Christ, and so receive forgiveness of sins and life eternal.[1] Second, to be united more and more to His sacred body through the Holy Spirit, who lives both in Christ and in us.[2] Therefore, although Christ is in heaven[3] and we are on earth, yet we are flesh of His flesh and bone of His bones,[4] and we forever live and are governed by one Spirit, as the members of our body are by one soul.[5]

[1] John 6:35, 40, 50-54. [2] John 6:55, 56; I Cor. 12:13. [3] Acts 1:9-11; 3:21; I Cor. 11:26; Col. 3:1. [4] I Cor. 6:15, 17; Eph. 5:29, 30; I John 4:13. [5] John 6:56-58; 15:1-6; Eph. 4:15, 16; I John 3:24.

77. Q. Where has Christ promised that He will nourish and refresh believers with His body and blood as surely as they eat of this broken bread and drink of this cup?

A. In the institution of the Lord's supper: The Lord Jesus on the night when He was betrayed took bread, and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes (I Corinthians 11:23-26). This promise is repeated by Paul where he says: The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread (I Corinthians 10:16, 17).

78. Q. Are then the bread and wine changed into the real body and blood of Christ?

A. No. Just as the water of baptism is not changed into the blood of Christ and is not the washing away of sins itself but is simply God's sign and pledge,[1] so also the bread in the Lord's supper does not become the body of Christ itself,[2] although it is called Christ's body[3] in keeping with the nature and usage of sacraments.[4]

[1] Eph. 5:26; Tit. 3:5. [2] Matt. 26:26-29. [3] I Cor. 10:16, 17; 11:26-28. [4] Gen. 17:10, 11; Ex. 12:11, 13; I Cor. 10:3, 4; I Pet. 3:21.

79. Q. Why then does Christ call the bread His body and the cup His blood, or the new covenant in His blood, and why does Paul speak of a participation in the body and blood of Christ?

A. Christ speaks in this way for a good reason: He wants to teach us by His supper that as bread and wine sustain us in this temporal life, so His crucified body and shed blood are true food and drink for our souls to eternal life.[1] But, even more important, He wants to assure us by this visible sign and pledge, first, that through the working of the Holy Spirit we share in His true body and blood as surely as we receive with our mouth these holy signs in remembrance of Him,[2] and, second, that all His suffering and obedience are as certainly ours as if we personally had suffered and paid for our sins.[3]

[1] John 6:51, 55. [2] I Cor. 10:16, 17; 11:26. [3] Rom. 6:5-11.

80. Q. What difference is there between the Lord's supper and the papal mass?

A. The Lord's supper testifies to us, first, that we have complete forgiveness of all our sins through the one sacrifice of Jesus Christ, which He Himself accomplished on the cross once for all;[1] and, second, that through the Holy Spirit we are grafted into Christ,[2] who with His true body is now in heaven at the right hand of the Father,[3] and this is where He wants to be worshipped.[4] But the mass teaches, first, that the living and the dead do not have forgiveness of sins through the suffering of Christ unless He is still offered for them daily by the priests; and, second, that Christ is bodily present in the form of bread and wine, and there is to be worshipped. Therefore the mass is basically nothing but a denial of the one sacrifice and suffering of Jesus Christ, and an accursed idolatry.

[1] Matt. 26:28; John 19:30; Heb. 7:27; 9:12, 25, 26; 10:10-18. [2] I Cor. 6:17; 10:16, 17. [3] Joh. 20:17; Acts 7:55, 56; Heb. 1:3; 8:1. [4] John 4:21-24; Phil. 3:20; Col. 3:1; I Thess. 1:10.

81. Q. Who are to come to the table of the Lord?

A. Those who are truly displeased with themselves because of their sins and yet trust that these are forgiven them and that their remaining weakness is covered by the suffering and death of Christ, and who also desire more and more to strengthen their faith and amend their life. But hypocrites and those who do not repent eat and drink judgment upon themselves.[1]

[1] I Cor. 10:19-22; 11:26-32.

82. Q. Are those also to be admitted to the Lord's supper who by their confession and life show that they are unbelieving and ungodly?

A. No, for then the covenant of God would be profaned and His wrath kindled against the whole congregation.[1] Therefore, according to the command of Christ and His apostles, the Christian church is duty-bound to exclude such persons by the keys of the kingdom of heaven, until they amend their lives.

[1] Ps. 50:16; Is. 1:11-17; I Cor. 11:17-34.

83. Q. What are the keys of the kingdom of heaven?

A. The preaching of the holy gospel and church discipline. By these two the kingdom of heaven is opened to believers and closed to unbelievers.[1]

[1] Matt. 16:19; John 20:21-23.

84. Q. How is the kingdom of heaven opened and closed by the preaching of the gospel?

A. According to the command of Christ, the kingdom of heaven is opened when it is proclaimed and publicly testified to each and every believer that God has really forgiven all their sins for the sake of Christ's merits, as often as they by true faith accept the promise of the gospel. The kingdom of heaven is closed when it is proclaimed and testified to all unbelievers and hypocrites that the wrath of God and eternal condemnation rest on them as long as they do not repent. According to this testimony of the gospel, God will judge both in this life and in the life to come.[1]

[1] Matt. 16:19; John 3:31-36; 20:21-23.

85. Q. How is the kingdom of heaven closed and opened by church discipline?

A. According to the command of Christ, people who call themselves Christians but show themselves to be unchristian in doctrine or life are first repeatedly admonished in a brotherly manner. If they do not give up their errors or wickedness, they are reported to the church, that is, to the elders. If they do not heed also their admonitions, they are forbidden the use of the sacraments, and they are excluded by the elders from the Christian congregation, and by God Himself from the kingdom of Christ.[1] They are again received as members of Christ and of the church when they promise and show real amendment.[2]

[1] Matt. 18:15-20; I Cor. 5:3-5; 11-13; II Thess. 3:14, 15. [2] Luke 15:20-24; II Cor. 2:6-11.

86. Q. Since we have been delivered from our misery by grace alone through Christ, without any merit of our own, why must we yet do good works?

A. Because Christ, having redeemed us by His blood, also renews us by His Holy Spirit to be His image, so that with our whole life we may show ourselves thankful to God for His benefits,[1] and He may be praised by us.[2] Further, that we ourselves may be assured of our faith by its fruits,[3] and that by our godly walk of life we may win our neighbours for Christ.[4]

[1] Rom. 6:13; 12:1, 2; I Pet. 2:5-10. [2] Matt. 5:16; I Cor. 6:19, 20. [3] Matt. 7:17, 18; Gal. 5:22-24; II Pet. 1:10, 11. [4] Matt. 5:14-16; Rom. 14:17-19; I Pet. 2:12; 3:1, 2.

87. Q. Can those be saved who do not turn to God from their ungrateful and impenitent walk of life?

A. By no means. Scripture says that no unchaste person, idolater, adulterer, thief, greedy person, drunkard, slanderer, robber, or the like shall inherit the kingdom of God.[1]

[1] I Cor. 6:9, 10; Gal. 5:19-21; Eph. 5:5, 6; I John 3:14.

88 Q. What is the true repentance or conversion of man?

A. It is the dying of the old nature and the coming to life of the new.[1]

[1] Rom. 6:1-11; I Cor. 5:7; II Cor. 5:17; Eph. 4:22-24; Col. 3:5-10.

89. Q. What is the dying of the old nature?

A. It is to grieve with heartfelt sorrow that we have offended God by our sin, and more and more to hate it and flee from it.[1]

[1] Ps. 51:3, 4, 17; Joel 2:12, 13; Rom. 8:12, 13; II Cor. 7:10.

90. Q. What is the coming to life of the new nature?

A. It is a heartfelt joy in God through Christ,[1] and a love and delight to live according to the will of God in all good works.[2]

[1] Ps. 51:8, 12; Is. 57:15; Rom. 5:1; 14:17. [2] Rom. 6:10, 11; Gal. 2:20.

91. Q. But what are good works?

A. Only those which are done out of true faith,[1] in accordance with the law of God,[2] and to His glory,[3] and not those based on our own opinion or on precepts of men.[4]

[1] Joh. 15:5; Rom. 14:23; Heb. 11:6. [2] Lev. 18:4; I Sam. 15:22; Eph. 2:10. [3] I Cor. 10:31. [4] Deut. 12:32; Is. 29:13; Ezek. 20:18, 19; Matt. 15:7-9.

92. Q. What is the law of the LORD?

A. God spoke all these words, saying: I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 1. You shall have no other gods before Me. 2. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, 2. or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, 2. or that is in the earth beneath, 2. or that is in the water under the earth; 2. you shall not bow down to them or serve them; 2. for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, 2. visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children 2. to the third and fourth generation 2. of those who hate Me, 2. but showing steadfast love to thousands of those 2. who love Me and keep My commandments. 3. You shall not take the Name of the LORD your God 3. in vain; 3. for the LORD will not hold him guiltless 3. who takes His Name in vain. 4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 4. Six days you shall labour, and do all your work; 4. but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your 4. God; 4. in it you shall not do any work, 4. you, or your son, or your daughter, 4. your manservant, or your maidservant, 4. or your cattle, 4. or the sojourner who is within your gates; 4. for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, 4. the sea, and all that is in them, 4. and rested the seventh day; 4. therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day 4. and hallowed it. 5. Honour your father and your mother, 5. that your days may be long 5. in the land which the LORD your God gives you. 6. You shall not kill. 7. You shall not commit adultery. 8. You shall not steal. 9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour. 10. you shall not covet your neighbour's house; 10. you shall not covet your neighbour's wife, 10. or his manservant, or his maidservant, 10. or his ox, or his ass, 10. or anything that is your neighbour's.[1]

[1] Ex. 20:1-17; Deut. 5:6-21.

93. Q. How are these commandments divided?

A. Into two parts. The first teaches us how to live in relation to God; the second, what duties we owe our neighbour.[1]

[1] Matt. 22:37-40.

94. Q. What does the LORD require in the first commandment?

A. That for the sake of my very salvation I avoid and flee all idolatry,[1] witchcraft, superstition,[2] and prayer to saints or to other creatures.[3] Further, that I rightly come to know the only true God.[4] trust in Him alone,[5] submit to Him with all humility[6] and patience,[7] expect all good from Him only,[8] and love,[9] fear,[10] and honour Him[11] with all my heart. In short, that I forsake all creatures rather than do the least thing against His will.[12]

[1] I Cor. 6:9, 10; 10:5-14; I John 5:21. [2] Lev. 19:31; Deut. 18:9-12. [3] Matt. 4:10; Rev. 19:10; 22:8, 9. [4] John 17:3. [5] Jer. 17:5, 7. [6] I Pet. 5:5, 6. [7] Rom. 5:3, 4; I Cor. 10:10; Phil. 2:14; Col. 1:11; Heb. 10:36. [8] Ps. 104:27, 28; Is. 45:7; James 1:17. [9] Deut. 6:5; (Matt. 22:37). [10] Deut. 6:2; Ps. 111:10; Prov. 1:7; 9:10; Matt. 10:28; I Pet. 1:17. [11] Deut. 6:13; (Matt. 4:10); Deut. 10:20. [12] Matt. 5:29, 30; 10:37-39; Acts 5:29.

95. Q. What is idolatry?

A. Idolatry is having or inventing something in which to put our trust instead of, or in addition to, the only true God who has revealed Himself in His Word.[1]

[1] I Chron. 16:26; Gal. 4:8, 9; Eph. 5:5; Phil. 3:19.

96. Q. What does God require in the second commandment?

A. We are not to make an image of God in any way,[1] nor to worship Him in any other manner than He has commanded in His Word.[2]

[1] Deut. 4:15-19; Is. 40:18-25; Acts 17:29; Rom. 1:23. [2] Lev. 10:1-7; Deut. 12:30; I Sam. 15:22, 23; Matt. 15:9; John 4:23, 24.

97. Q. May we then not make any image at all?

A. God cannot and may not be visibly portrayed in any way. Creatures may be portrayed, but God forbids us to make or have any images of them in order to worship them or to serve God through them.[1]

[1] Ex. 34:13, 14, 17; Num. 33:52; II Kings 18:4, 5; Is. 40:25.

98. Q. But may images not be tolerated in the churches as "books for the laity"?

A. No, for we should not be wiser than God. He wants His people to be taught not by means of dumb images[1] but by the living preaching of His Word.[2]

[1] Jer. 10:8; Hab. 2:18-20. [2] Rom. 10:14, 15, 17; II Tim. 3:16, 17; II Pet. 1:19.

99. Q. What is required in the third commandment?

A. We are not to blaspheme or to abuse the Name of God by cursing,[1] perjury,[2] or unnecessary oaths,[3] nor to share in such horrible sins by being silent bystanders.[4] In short, we must use the holy Name of God only with fear and reverence,[5] so that we may rightly confess Him,[6] call upon Him,[7] and praise Him in all our words and works.[8]

[1] Lev. 24:10-17. [2] Lev. 19:12 [3] Matt. 5:37; James 5:12. [4] Lev. 5:1; Prov. 29:24. [5] Ps. 99:1-5; Is. 45:23; Jer. 4:2. [6] Matt. 10:32, 33; Rom. 10:9, 10. [7] Ps. 50:14, 15; I Tim. 2:8. [8] Rom. 2:24; Col. 3:17; I Tim. 6:1.

100. Q. Is the blaspheming of God's Name by swearing and cursing such a grievous sin that God is angry also with those who do not prevent and forbid it as much as they can?

A. Certainly,[1] for no sin is greater or provokes God's wrath more than the blaspheming of His Name. That is why He commanded it to be punished with death.[2]

[1] Lev. 5:1. [2] Lev. 24:16.

101. Q. But may we swear an oath by the Name of God in a godly manner?

A. Yes, when the government demands it of its subjects, or when necessity requires it, in order to maintain and promote fidelity and truth, to God's glory and for our neighbour's good. Such oath-taking is based on God's Word[1] and was therefore rightly used by saints in the Old and the New Testament.[2]

[1] Deut. 6:13; 10:20; Jer. 4:1, 2; Heb. 6:16. [2] Gen. 21:24; 31:53; Josh. 9:15; I Sam. 24:22; I Kings 1:29, 30; Rom. 1:9; II Cor. 1:23.

102. Q. May we also swear by saints or other creatures?

A. No. A lawful oath is a calling upon God, who alone knows the heart, to bear witness to the truth, and to punish me if I swear falsely.[1] No creature is worthy of such honour.[2]

[1] Rom. 9:1; II Cor. 1:23. [2] Matt. 5:34-37; 23:16-22; James 5:12.

103. Q. What does God require in the fourth commandment?

A. First, that the ministry of the gospel and the schools be maintained[1] and that, especially on the day of rest, I diligently attend the church of God[2] to hear God's Word,[3] to use the sacraments,[4] to call publicly upon the LORD,[5] and to give Christian offerings for the poor.[6] Second, that all the days of my life I rest from my evil works, let the LORD work in me through His Holy Spirit, and so begin in this life the eternal sabbath.[7]

[1] Deut. 6:4-9; 20-25; I Cor. 9:13, 14; II Tim. 2:2; 3:13-17; Tit. 1:5. [2] Deut. 12:5-12; Ps. 40:9, 10; 68:26; Acts 2:42-47; Heb. 10:23-25. [3] Rom. 10:14-17; I Cor. 14:26-33; I Tim. 4:13. [4] I Cor. 11:23, 24. [5] Col. 3:16; I Tim. 2:1. [6] Ps. 50:14; I Cor. 16:2; II Cor. 8 and 9. [7] Is. 66:23; Heb. 4:9-11.

104. Q. What does God require in the fifth commandment?

A. That I show all honour, love, and faithfulness to my father and mother and to all those in authority over me, submit myself with due obedience to their good instruction and discipline,[1] and also have patience with their weaknesses and shortcomings,[2] since it is God's will to govern us by their hand.[3]

[1] Ex. 21:17; Prov. 1:8; 4:1; Rom. 13:1, 2; Eph. 5:21, 22; 6:1-9; Col. 3:18-4:1. [2] Prov. 20:20; 23:22; I Pet.2:18. [3] Matt. 22:21, Rom. 13:1-8; Eph. 6:1-9; Col. 3:18-21.

105. Q. What does God require in the sixth commandment?

A. I am not to dishonour, hate, injure, or kill my neighbour by thoughts, words, or gestures, and much less by deeds, whether personally or through another;[1] rather, I am to put away all desire of revenge.[2] Moreover, I am not to harm or recklessly endanger myself.[3] Therefore, also, the government bears the sword to prevent murder.[4]

[1] Gen. 9:6; Lev. 19:17, 18; Matt. 5:21, 22; 26:52. [2] Prov. 25:21, 22; Matt. 18:35; Rom. 12:19; Eph. 4:26. [3] Matt. 4:7; 26:52; Rom. 13:11-14. [4] Gen. 9:6; Ex. 21:14; Rom. 13:4.

106. Q. But does this commandment speak only of killing?

A. By forbidding murder God teaches us that He hates the root of murder, such as envy, hatred, anger, and desire of revenge,[1] and that He regards all these as murder.[2]

[1] Prov. 14:30; Rom. 1:29; 12:19; Gal. 5:19-21; James 1:20; I John 2:9-11. [2] I John 3:15.

107. Q. Is it enough, then, that we do not kill our neighbour in any such way?

A. No. When God condemns envy, hatred, and anger, He commands us to love our neighbour as ourselves,[1] to show patience, peace, gentleness, mercy, and friendliness toward him,[2] to protect him from harm as much as we can, and to do good even to our enemies.[3]

[1] Matt. 7:12; 22:39; Rom. 12:10. [2] Matt. 5:5; Luke 6:36; Rom. 12:10, 18; Gal. 6:1, 2; Eph. 4:2; Col. 3:12; I Pet. 3:8. [3] Ex. 23:4, 5; Matt. 5:44, 45; Rom. 12:20.

108. Q. What does the seventh commandment teach us?

A. That all unchastity is cursed by God.[1] We must therefore detest it from the heart[2] and live chaste and disciplined lives, both within and outside of holy marriage.[3]

[1] Lev. 18:30; Eph. 5:3-5. [2] Jude 22, 23. [3] I Cor. 7:1-9; I Thess. 4:3-8; Heb. 13:4.

109. Q. Does God in this commandment forbid nothing more than adultery and similar shameful sins?

A. Since we, body and soul, are temples of the Holy Spirit, it is God's will that we keep ourselves pure and holy. Therefore He forbids all unchaste acts, gestures, words, thoughts, desires,[1] and whatever may entice us to unchastity.[2]

[1] Matt. 5:27-29; I Cor. 6:18-20; Eph. 5:3, 4. [2] I Cor. 15:33; Eph. 5:18.

110. Q. What does God forbid in the eighth commandment?

A. God forbids not only outright theft and robbery[1] but also such wicked schemes and devices as false weights and measures, deceptive merchandising, counterfeit money, and usury;[2] we must not defraud our neighbour in any way, whether by force or by show of right.[3] In addition God forbids all greed[4] and all abuse or squandering of His gifts.[5]

[1] Ex. 22:1; I Cor. 5:9, 10; 6:9, 10. [2] Deut. 25:13-16; Ps. 15:5; Prov. 11:1; 12:22; Ezek. 45:9-12; Luke 6:35. [3] Mic. 6:9-11; Luke 3:14; James 5:1-6. [4] Luke 12:15; Eph. 5:5. [5] Prov. 21:20; 23:20, 21; Luke 16:10-13.

111. Q. What does God require of you in this commandment?

A. I must promote my neighbour's good wherever I can and may, deal with him as I would like others to deal with me, and work faithfully so that I may be able to give to those in need.[1]

[1] Is. 58:5-10; Matt. 7:12; Gal. 6:9, 10; Eph. 4:28.

112. Q. What is required in the ninth commandment?

A. I must not give false testimony against anyone, twist no one's words, not gossip or slander, nor condemn or join in condemning anyone rashly and unheard.[1] Rather, I must avoid all lying and deceit as the devil's own works, under penalty of God's heavy wrath.[2] In court and everywhere else, I must love the truth,[3] speak and confess it honestly, and do what I can to defend and promote my neighbour's honour and reputation.[4]

[1] Ps. 15; Prov. 19:5, 9; 21:28; Matt. 7:1; Luke 6:37; Rom. 1:28-32. [2] Lev. 19:11, 12; Prov. 12:22; 13:5; John 8:44; Rev. 21:8. [3] I Cor. 13:6; Eph. 4:25. [4] I Pet. 3:8, 9; 4:8.

113. Q. What does the tenth commandment require of us?

A. That not even the slightest thought or desire contrary to any of God's commandments should ever arise in our heart. Rather, we should always hate all sin with all our heart, and delight in all righteousness.[1]

[1] Ps. 19:7-14; 139:23, 24; Rom. 7:7, 8.

114. Q. But can those converted to God keep these commandments perfectly?

A. No. In this life even the holiest have only a small beginning of this obedience.[1] Nevertheless, with earnest purpose they do begin to live not only according to some but to all the commandments of God.[2]

[1] Eccles. 7:20; Rom. 7:14, 15; I Cor. 13:9; I John 1:8. [2] Ps. 1:1, 2; Rom. 7:22-25; Phil. 3:12-16.

115. Q. If in this life no one can keep the ten commandments perfectly, why does God have them preached so strictly?

A. First, that throughout our life we may more and more become aware of our sinful nature, and therefore seek more eagerly the forgiveness of sins and righteousness in Christ.[1] Second, that we may be zealous for good deeds and constantly pray to God for the grace of the Holy Spirit, that He may more and more renew us after God's image, until after this life we reach the goal of perfection.[2]

[1] Ps. 32:5; Rom. 3:19-26; 7:7, 24, 25; I John 1:9. [2] I Cor. 9:24; Phil. 3:12-14; I John 3:1-3.

116. Q. Why is prayer necessary for Christians?

A. Because prayer is the most important part of the thankfulness which God requires of us.[1] Moreover, God will give His grace and the Holy Spirit only to those who constantly and with heartfelt longing ask Him for these gifts and thank Him for them.[2]

[1] Ps. 50:14, 15; 116:12-19; I Thess. 5:16-18. [2] Matt. 7:7, 8; Luke 11:9-13.

117. Q. What belongs to a prayer which pleases God and is heard by Him?

A. First, we must from the heart call upon the one true God only, who has revealed Himself in His Word, for all that He has commanded us to pray.[1] Second, we must thoroughly know our need and misery, so that we may humble ourselves before God.[2] Third, we must rest on this firm foundation that, although we do not deserve it, God will certainly hear our prayer for the sake of Christ our Lord, as He has promised us in His Word.[3]

[1] Ps. 145:18-20; John 4:22-24; Rom. 8:26, 27; James 1:5; I John 5:14, 15; Rev. 19:10. [2] II Chron. 7:14; 20:12; Ps. 2:11; 34:18; 62:8; Is. 66:2; Rev. 4. [3] Dan. 9:17-19; Matt. 7:8; John 14:13, 14; 16:23; Rom. 10:13; James 1:6.

118. Q. What has God commanded us to ask of Him?

A. All the things we need for body and soul,[1] as included in the prayer which Christ our Lord Himself taught us.

[1] Matt. 6:33; James 1:17.

119. Q. What is the Lord's prayer?

A. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread; And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors; And lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.[1]

[1] Matt. 6:9-13; Luke 11:2-4.

120. Q. Why has Christ commanded us to address God as Our Father?

A. To awaken in us at the very beginning of our prayer that childlike reverence and trust toward God which should be basic to our prayer: God has become our Father through Christ and will much less deny us what we ask of Him in faith than our fathers would refuse us earthly things.[1] [1] Matt. 7:9-11; Luke 11:11-13. 121.

121. Q. Why is there added, Who art in heaven?

A. These words teach us not to think of God's heavenly majesty in an earthly manner,[1] and to expect from His almighty power all things we need for body and soul.[2]

[1] Jer. 23:23, 24; Acts 17:24, 25. [2] Matt. 6:25-34; Rom. 8:31, 32.

122. Q. What is the first petition?

A. Hallowed be Thy Name. That is: Grant us first of all that we may rightly know Thee,[1] and sanctify, glorify, and praise Thee in all Thy works, in which shine forth Thy almighty power, wisdom, goodness, righteousness, mercy, and truth.[2] Grant us also that we may so direct our whole life -- our thoughts, words, and actions -- that Thy Name is not blasphemed because of us but always honoured and praised.[3]

[1] Jer. 9:23, 24; 31: 33, 34; Matt. 16:17; John 17:3. [2] Ex. 34:5-8; Ps. 145; Jer. 32:16-20; Luke 1:46-55, 68-75; Rom. 11: 33-36. [3] Ps. 115:1; Matt. 5:16.

123. Q. What is the second petition?

A. Thy kingdom come. That is: So rule us by Thy Word and Spirit that more and more we submit to Thee.[1] Preserve and increase Thy church.[2] Destroy the works of the devil, every power that raises itself against Thee, and every conspiracy against Thy holy Word.[3] Do all this until the fulness of Thy kingdom comes, wherein Thou shalt be all in all.[4]

[1] Ps. 119:5, 105; 143:10; Matt. 6:33. [2] Ps. 51:18; 122:6-9; Matt. 16:18; Acts 2:42-47. [3] Rom. 16:20; I John 3:8. [4] Rom. 8:22, 23; I Cor. 15:28; Rev. 22: 17, 20.

124. Q. What is the third petition?

A. Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. That is: Grant that we and all men may deny our own will, and without any murmuring obey Thy will, for it alone is good.[1] Grant also that everyone may carry out the duties of his office and calling[2] as willingly and faithfully as the angels in heaven.[3]

[1] Matt. 7:21; 16:24-26; Luke 22:42; Rom. 12:1, 2; Tit. 2:11, 12. [2] I Cor. 7:17-24; Eph. 6:5-9. [3] Ps. 103:20, 21.

125. Q. What is the fourth petition?

A. Give us this day our daily bread. That is: Provide us with all our bodily needs[1] so that we may acknowledge that Thou art the only fountain of all good,[2] and that our care and labour, and also Thy gifts, cannot do us any good without Thy blessing.[3] Grant therefore that we may withdraw our trust from all creatures, and place it only in Thee.[4]

[1] Ps. 104:27-30; 145:15, 16; Matt. 6:25-34. [2] Acts 14:17; 17:25; James 1:17. [3] Deut. 8:3; Ps. 37:16; 127:1, 2; I Cor. 15:58. [4] Ps. 55:22; 62; 146; Jer. 17:5-8; Heb. 13:5, 6.

126. Q. What is the fifth petition?

A. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. That is: For the sake of Christ's blood, do not impute to us, wretched sinners; any of our transgressions, nor the evil which still clings to us,[1] as we also find this evidence of Thy grace in us that we are fully determined wholeheartedly to forgive our neighbor.[2]

[1] Ps. 51:1-7; 143:2; Rom. 8:1; I John 2:1, 2. [2] Matt. 6:14, 15; 18:21-35.

127. Q. What is the sixth petition?

A. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. That is: In ourselves we are so weak that we cannot stand even for a moment.[1] Moreover, our sworn enemies -- the devil,[2] the world,[3] and our own flesh[4] -- do not cease to attack us. Wilt Thou, therefore, uphold and strengthen us by the power of Thy Holy Spirit, so that in this spiritual war[5] we may not go down to defeat, but always firmly resist our enemies, until we finally obtain the complete victory.[6]

[1] Ps. 103:14-16; John 15:1-5. [2] II Cor. 11:14; Eph. 6:10-13; I Pet. 5:8. [3] John 15:18-21. [4] Rom. 7:23; Gal. 5:17. [5] Matt. 10:19, 20; 26:41; Mark 13:33; Rom. 5:3-5. [6] I Cor. 10:13; I Thess. 3:13; 5:23.

128. Q. How do you conclude your prayer?

A. For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. That is: All this we ask of Thee because, as our King, having power over all things, Thou art both willing and able to give us all that is good,[1] and because not we but Thy holy Name should so receive all glory for ever.[2]

[1] Rom. 10:11-13; II Pet 2:9. [2] Ps. 115:1; Jer. 33:8, 9; John 14:13.

129. Q. What does the word Amen mean?

A. Amen means: It is true and certain. For God has much more certainly heard my prayer than I feel in my heart that I desire this of Him.[1]

[1] Is. 65:24; II Cor. 1:20; II Tim. 2:13.

RickD · Post by **RickD** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:42 pm

Holy Crap! That has to be the longest post I've ever seen.

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:02 pm

vanquish29 wrote:there are objective truths and logical absolutes that the probability is true

Of course there are. That has nothing to do with my critique.

you didnt comment on frank tipler saying that physics and math and the design of the universe is proof of Gods existence.

I didn't see why I needed to. His comments go to the argument from design, whereas your OP primarily addressed the argument from fulfilled prophecy. That is what I commented on. If you are going to make an argument from prophecy--which, by the way, I think is a perfectly valid and useful argument--you need to do it correctly. The way you did it, or the way your source did it, was not correct. Tipler is completely irrelevant to that point.

your presupposing the probability to be false without any good arguments.

I don't know what you are talking about here. I gave you proper ways to make a probablistic argument based on fulfilled prophecy, so how can you accuse me of supposing that probability is false? Beyond that, however, I did provide arguments as to why I rejected the particular types of prophecies you initially supplied. You can, of course, go back and comment on them if you like. Or you can choose not to, but don't be so patronizing as to say that I provided no arguments for my criticism.

The rest of your post was completely off topic.

I'll tell you what I tell my students: the best apologists use the best arguments in the best situations. They don't throw kitchen sinks. They don't use weak versions of their positions. They don't misrepresent other positions to attack. I appreciate the fact that you are trying to use the argument from prophecy. It is (sadly) widely neglected. I'm simply saying that if yo are going to use, then use it correctly. I imagine you would object if some apologist came along and presented the cosmological argument as "everything has a cause, therefore the universe has a cause; that cause is God." That's a poor version of an otherwise good argument. And the same is true here. Prophecy can be an excellent proof both of Christianity specifically and of God's existence generally. But it has to be done correctly.

That's all I was getting at.

vanquish29 · Post by **vanquish29** » Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:45 am

are you disagreeing on Jesus and Him fulfilling prophecy's ?
are you a christian ?
are you a naturalist? what is your position? i haven't heard it yet, are you a atheist? The Bethlehem prophecy is Biblical Him being Born is true we all know that, im not sure if your for God or against Jesus, or are you saying you know that there is no God, and jesus is just a man that did live once, but didn't do anything special is that your position? whatever your position is historically architecturally these historians prove jesus's empty tomb and resurrection did happen in history the text says it happened, your incline to your opinion you have that right but dont say that the bible is false i thought thats what your saying, i put all the design information as well as biblical and frank tipler and peter stoner are qualified to say what they believe for fellow brothers and sisters in Christianity
in atheism there are no objective moral values, in the absence of god there is no right or wrong, everything is complex sociology and biology from time and history from society and experience, and that would be evolution, i personally dont believe in macro-evolution i believe in design and with God objective moral values only exist if God exists objective moral values do exist therefore God exists
whatever exists has a cause, God is on the outside of time and space, self existing non physical timeless spaceless powerful and personal
self existing from eternity, non physical God is a spirit, spaceless invisible, timeless trancendent beyond time, powerful by his creation. personal God has a mind, abstract ideas and numbers dont cause themselves into existence, moral law moral law giver.

if my position is weak its certainly valid, heres more on Bethlehem and the many mathematical probability of prophecy that jesus fulfilled, i think thats what you want to stick on since its the title of the topic, if your for jesus and prophecy, and believe in God and Jesus as a fellow brother in Christ i urge you to come to Him if you haven't already, if you are opposed, instead of refuting what i bring with opinions bring some evidence of your own, if you have evidence to say that Christianity is false , then were in a whole different discussion that goes to biblical certainty, is the Bible the word of God is that the question your saying? is that what your saying?

17 prophecies of Christ

The life of Jesus Christ fulfilled 60 major Old Testamant prophecies and 270 ramifications. The chances of him fulfilling only 8 prophecies, mathematically, would be 1 chance in 100,000,000,000,000,000. (Equivalent to covering the state of Texas with silver dollars 2 feet deep.)
I will cover 17 prophecies in this study. The chances of Jesus fulfilling these 17 prophecies is 1 chance in 480 billion x 1 billion x 1 trillion. This is Equivalent to filling the entire Milky Way Galaxy with sand. One of those grains of sand is painted red, and a person is blindfolded and given one chance to reach out his hand and pick that red grain of sand the first try. This is the chance that Jesus could have fullfilled these 17 Prophecies listed below. IMPOSSIBLE?! Not if he is God! “For with God nothing shall be impossible.” Luke 1:37 (KJV)

(All scripture quoted is King James Version)

1. His birth in Bethlehem from the tribe of Judah.

Micah 5:2 “But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.”
Gen 49:10 “The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.” Approx. date written: Micah 700 B.C. and Genisis 1440 B.C.

FULFILLED
Matt 1:1-2 “A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers”,
Matt 2:1 “Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,”

2. He would have to go to Egypt and return.

Hosea 11:1 “When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.” Date: 755 B.C.

FULFILLED
Matt 2:13-15 “And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.”

3. He would be proceeded by a messenger.

Isa 40:3 “The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.” Date: 750 B.C.
Mal 3:1 “Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.” Date: 450 B.C. (Mal. 4:5 -- Matt. 11:12-14, 17:10-13)
FULFILLED
Matt 3:1-3 “In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.”

4. He would enter Jerusalem on a colt.

Zech 9:9 “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.” Date: 520 B.C.

FULFILLED
Luke 19:35-38 “And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon. And as he went, they spread their clothes in the way....Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.”

5. He would be betrayed by a friend.

Psalm 41:9 “Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.” Written by King David around 1000 B.C.
FULFILLED
Matt 26:47-48 “And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people. Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.”

6. His hands and His feet would be pierced. 7. They cast lots for His garments.

Ps 22:16-18 “For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.” Written by King David around 1000 B.C.
FULFILLED
Matt 27:35 “And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.”

8. He would be beaten and scourged (whipped)

Isa 50:6 “I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.” Date: 750 B.C.
Isa 53:5 “But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.” Date: 750 B.C.

FULFILLED
Matt 27:26-31 “ ....and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.
And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe... And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews! And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head. And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.”

9. He was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver. 10. The 30 pieces of silver would buy the potters field.

Zech 11:12-13 “And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.” Date: 520 B.C.

FULFILLED
Matt 26:15 “And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.”
Matt 27:3-7 “Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood... And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.”

11. He would be silent before His accusers.

Isa 53:7 “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.” Date: 750 B.C.

FULFILLED
Matt 27:12-14 “And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing. Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee? And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.”

12. He would be crucified with the wicked. 13. He would be buried in a rich man's tomb.

Isa 53:8-9 & 12 “He was taken from prison and from judgment:.... And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.... and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.” 750 BC

FULFILLED
Matt 27:38 “Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.”
Matt 27:57-60 “When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple: He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered. And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.”

14. None of His bones would be broken. 15. His side would be pierced.

Ps 34:20 “He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken”. King David 1000 B.C.
Zech 12:10 “... and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.” 520 B.C.

FULFILLED
John 19:32-34 “Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.”

16. His body would not decay.

Ps 16:10 “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” 1000BC
FULFILLED
Acts 2:31 “He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.”

17. Darkness covering the earth.

Amos 8:9 “And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:” Date: 750 B.C.
FULFILLED
Matt 27:45 “Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.”
(From 12:00 Noon until 3:00 PM)

CONCLUSION
Jesus said in John 5:39-40 “Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.”

Many people search the scriptures, but they will not come to Jesus that they may have life eternal. Yet ALL of the scriptures are pointing to HIM.

In Luke Jesus said:
Luke 24:44-47 “And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”

The Law of Moses, the Prophets, and Pslams are the Old Testament scriptures, written to prepare the way of the Messiah, the Christ, the Savior of the World. He came to save the Jews and the Gentiles.

Jesus is GOD!
Isa 9:6 “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” (See also Daniel 7:9-13 John 1:1-14 & 8:56-58 & 20:28-29 Colossians 1:15-18 & 2:9)

Before He stepped down from his throne in heaven, humbled himself, and became a man, Jesus prepared us and told us about Himself through 40 different authors and over 1,500 years. He chose a man, Abraham, to bring forth a Holy nation, and to prepare the way for his enterance into the world, as Savior of the whole world. His lineage of every human being from Adam to Jesus Christ is listed in Luke 3:23-38 (this lineage is through His mother Mary. The list in Matt. 1:1-16 is His lineage through His father Joseph, which proves that Jesus would have been the rightful heir to the throne of Israel as “King of the Jews”.)

My prayer is that this study will have helped you to realize the credibility and truth of the Word of God. Many more prophesies have come true, and many more are yet to come to pass, including the physical return of Jesus Christ and God's wrath to come. But the greatest truth is that God loves you, and wants to save you from the wrath which is to come. Everyone has sinned and everyone is condemned to Hell because NO SIN can enter into heaven and infect God's Holy Kingdom. Yet God has given us a cure. The Blood of Jesus paid the price for our sins, and washes us clean of the infection of sin. When a man is “born again” by faith in Jesus Christ, God gives a gift, His Holy Spirit, whom He gives to everyone who obeys Him, and by His Power, He makes us Holy and pleasing in His sight (Ezek. 36:25-27 & John 7:37-39, Acts 2:38). Please pray with me:

“Father God, I know that I am a sinner. I have doubted you and hurt you, and others as well. Please forgive me. I put my trust in Jesus. Jesus, I call on your name. I ask you to wash me of my sins and to come and live in my Heart. Give me your Holy Spirit. Take control of my life and be the Lord and Master of my life. Today, I choose to live for you and to claim you as my Messiah, Savior & God. Help me, Jesus, to understand the Holy Bible. Thank you for saving me from Hell and the wrath which is to come upon the ungodly. I love you! Amen!

Ps 2:1-12
1 “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed (Messiah, Christ), saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
(KJV)

Ivellious · Post by **Ivellious** » Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:49 am

Ha, Jac being an atheist XD That has to be one of the more humorous things I've seen on this site.

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:50 am

Here, vanquish, read this. It's a paper I wrote last year that you may find helpful in understanding the hermeneutical implications of the NT use of the OT, which in turn says a lot about the apologetic value of fulfilled OT prophecy in Christ.

http://cmmorrison.files.wordpress.com/2 ... psalms.pdf

vanquish29 · Post by **vanquish29** » Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:52 pm

thanks for the paper, i read it i think you pretty much agree then that jesus existed and he is God in the flesh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ksa8uGe21rw (heres my source) and anthony flew became a deist after years of atheism
heres another video of why we should believe in the bible http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHRP0I2SrVs, i rather you produce videos on your position on atheism or i invite you to become a christian if you havent already, as far as the prophecy, i think you know we can trust on them, i havent seen anything that destroys the doctrine of the bible if that was your goal you failed

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:32 pm

And I invite you to get to know people a little more before you make assumptions about them, and while you are at it, I certainly invite you to read what is said to you a little more carefully. As far as videos go, I'm not much a fan of them myself. But if you would like some more exposure to my own views, I would recommend you read the following two items (both of which I wrote):

http://cmmorrison.files.wordpress.com/2 ... r-hope.pdf
http://cmmorrison.files.wordpress.com/2 ... licity.pdf

If you insist on videos, I don't have too much to offer (that I can give out for free--my employer would not appreciate it). However, you can check out this page if you like:

http://cmmorrison.wordpress.com/audio-video/

There you will find two videos: a sermon and a presentation on the proper way to present the Kalam Cosmological Argument; along with fourteen audio files. Unfortunately, the other links (the audio files) are broken right now. I'll get them fixed next week.

On a final note, I would encourage you, when you make a thread or when you reply to a post, to pick one subject and address the matter as concisely as possible. It does you very little good to address a broad range of issues at the same time. When you try to do that as an apologist, it has the effect of "throwing the kitchen sink," which is actually an informal fallacy sometimes called elephant hurling. It is very commonly done by people who are insecure in their beliefs and so they therefore try to persuade on shear volume. It is much better to pick a particular issue and address it in great detail (but, again, doing so as concisely as possible).

All the best to you.

vanquish29 · Post by **vanquish29** » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:06 pm

Jac3510 wrote:And I invite you to get to know people a little more before you make assumptions about them, and while you are at it, I certainly invite you to read what is said to you a little more carefully. As far as videos go, I'm not much a fan of them myself. But if you would like some more exposure to my own views, I would recommend you read the following two items (both of which I wrote):

http://cmmorrison.files.wordpress.com/2 ... r-hope.pdf
http://cmmorrison.files.wordpress.com/2 ... licity.pdf

If you insist on videos, I don't have too much to offer (that I can give out for free--my employer would not appreciate it). However, you can check out this page if you like:

http://cmmorrison.wordpress.com/audio-video/

There you will find two videos: a sermon and a presentation on the proper way to present the Kalam Cosmological Argument; along with fourteen audio files. Unfortunately, the other links (the audio files) are broken right now. I'll get them fixed next week.

On a final note, I would encourage you, when you make a thread or when you reply to a post, to pick one subject and address the matter as concisely as possible. It does you very little good to address a broad range of issues at the same time. When you try to do that as an apologist, it has the effect of "throwing the kitchen sink," which is actually an informal fallacy sometimes called elephant hurling. It is very commonly done by people who are insecure in their beliefs and so they therefore try to persuade on shear volume. It is much better to pick a particular issue and address it in great detail (but, again, doing so as concisely as possible).

All the best to you.

sir your doing the same thing your throwing the kitchen sink , you jumped to prophecy to cosmological argument, now your claiming kalam, a muslim view popularized the word kalam cosmological argument, are you a muslim? are you a atheist? you say to pick one subject i did prophecy,, i noticed you said you dont have that many videos, that doesn't surprised me, it seems like you have a unreasonable bias when it comes to the nature of God you dont even give the possibility that God created the universe and the resurrection of Jesus is evidence of Gods existence to us in the person of Jesus Christ, my video is short but please check it out, its funny its enlightening, im not trying to beat you up, as a christian we invite you to become a believer in Jesus of Nazareth , and the bible has not been refuted that still stands and its still valid, i cant go through all of your material its too long thats why when i give videos its short and does what i want it to do, i dont waste time, if you produce a video state your position, you havent said that yet, you gave opinions made snide remarks about argumentation , but havent said that your a atheist, are a polytheist or a deist or a naturalist ? but you are still a brother in jesus christ even tho your not quite there yet to admit that but i can im a christian

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1u9ZIQ33a8c

Post by **1over137** » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:35 pm

Vanquish29,

What I see as a valid point from Jac

So while it may be true that the probability of someone riding into Jerusalem on a donkey is 1 in 100, in fact, anyone who wanted to claim that they were the Messiah would and could have done that themselves. Interestingly, thats one of the important points of that passage.

is how the probability was calculated.

In my view, your calculation was too simplistic. I think more complicated Math formulas for counting probability should be taken to include probability someone would claim he is the Messiah (so he was not) and took the donkey as written in the OT, etc.

Post by **1over137** » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:42 pm

vanquish29 wrote:sir your doing the same thing your throwing the kitchen sink , you jumped to prophecy to cosmological argument, now your claiming kalam, a muslim view popularized the word kalam cosmological argument, are you a muslim? are you a atheist? you say to pick one subject i did prophecy,, i noticed you said you dont have that many videos, that doesn't surprised me, it seems like you have a unreasonable bias when it comes to the nature of God you dont even give the possibility that God created the universe and the resurrection of Jesus is evidence of Gods existence to us in the person of Jesus Christ, my video is short but please check it out, its funny its enlightening, im not trying to beat you up, as a christian we invite you to become a believer in Jesus of Nazareth , and the bible has not been refuted that still stands and its still valid, i cant go through all of your material its too long thats why when i give videos its short and does what i want it to do, i dont waste time, if you produce a video state your position, you havent said that yet, you gave opinions made snide remarks about argumentation , but havent said that your a atheist, are a polytheist or a deist or a naturalist ? but you are still a brother in jesus christ even tho your not quite there yet to admit that but i can im a christian

Vanquish, you accused Jac of many things which are not true at all. Please, do not do that. Have the conversation with others in civil and respectful way. Please check our discussion guidelines, esp. Mannerism
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... hp?f=1&t=4

vanquish29 · Post by **vanquish29** » Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:07 pm

so your saying that there could of been "many" jesus 's sat on a donkey and filmed it by writing it down on paper? they didnt have paper they had to write it down on papyrus and that cost money like 20 sheckels or darnarious, by watching sheep i mean for God sake sheep! that was for work back in that time, no roads just riding on donkeys that the jews saw the coming messiah on that day and they wrote that down and that still stands and has not been refuted, now about the probability that the number is false, of that prophecy coming to be a lie or a fabrication is so blatant bigotry and unreasonable bias the jews knew who it was they saw him he had a multitude of followers i believe it was on palm sunday, a special day for the jews in fact they knew who it was, even if you think it was not him it is still possible that it was Him which it was exactly what the story says in the greek as well as commentary, this is what the archeological discoveries have found surrounding the time of culture back then, you are entitled to believe that the prophecy is false but what would be the intent of math professior and discoveries he has found no prejudice just solid numbers from a Christian that knew math and he still stands and maintains that it could have happends this way.

Jac3510 · Post by **Jac3510** » Sun Oct 27, 2013 4:57 pm

Wow . . . someone's not going to make it here long . . .

Evidence for God from Science

Mathematical Probability Jesus was the Christ

Mathematical Probability Jesus was the Christ

Re: Mathematical Probability Jesus was the Christ

Re: Mathematical Probability Jesus was the Christ

Re: Mathematical Probability Jesus was the Christ

Re: Mathematical Probability Jesus was the Christ

Re: Mathematical Probability Jesus was the Christ

Re: Mathematical Probability Jesus was the Christ

Re: Mathematical Probability Jesus was the Christ

Re: Mathematical Probability Jesus was the Christ

Re: Mathematical Probability Jesus was the Christ

Re: Mathematical Probability Jesus was the Christ

Re: Mathematical Probability Jesus was the Christ

Re: Mathematical Probability Jesus was the Christ

Re: Mathematical Probability Jesus was the Christ

Re: Mathematical Probability Jesus was the Christ