GOD IS ONE PERSON

SpiritualSon · Post by **SpiritualSon** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:52 am

God is one, in Person and in Essence.

Scriptural Reference:

Hebrews 1:3 “...who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person"

There is a difference of understanding in the definition of the word “person”. Some understand person to mean the body or appearance, the visible expression. If we accept this definition, then clearly the Father is not a person, for He is Spirit.

On the other hand, others understand person to be associated with personality, individuality, self-consciousness, self-determination, etc. If we accept this definition, then the Father is a person. However, this still will not make two or three persons in the Godhead. There is only one God, and only one personality of Deity. This personality is the one and same whether seen, as Jehovah in the Old Testament, or as Jesus in the New Testament.

The Scriptural reference given, Hebrews 1:3, is the only place in the Bible that the word “person” is given when referring to the Godhead or Deity. In the Greek, this Scripture reads, “the expression of his substance”. In the Amplified New Testament we read, “He is the perfect imprint and very image of (God's) nature.

The conclusion is that the word “person is not actually a proper word to use when referring to Deity, but rather we should use the terms, “substance, nature, being, etc.”

B. God has personality:

Scriptural Reference:

1 John 1:3 “And truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.”

It is very important that we have a clear understanding on this truth, for if we go wrong here, it will definitely lead to further misunderstanding. It is very easy to miss. the true revelation and to turn to one extreme or the other. We should pray that the Lord will enable us to remain solidly established in the very center of revealed Truth.

In both the Old and New Testaments, man is able to have fellowship with God. Man is able to talk to God and have communion with His Maker. We must never think of God as being just an impersonal force or influence. He is a personal God who loved us and manifested Himself in flesh to die for us. As such, He has personality but He is still one God, one Divine Being.

A man cannot talk to an impersonal force such as sunlight, warmth, gravity, mother nature, etc., but he can talk to his wife, his child, his father. Not only can he talk to them, but there can be a communion, a fellowship because they are living beings, individuals with minds and hearts of their own.

This truth must be clearly understood when the personal pronouns are used. The personal pronoun “He” should always be used, never the neuter pronoun “it”. This is also true when speaking of the Holy Spirit. In Acts 2:2 we find the neuter pronoun, “it”, but this is referring to the wind that filled all the house. It is correct to refer to the experience of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost as “it”, but when we receive the Holy Spirit into our hearts, we receive “Him

However, there are not three “he's” in the Godhead. When the personal pronoun is used, we are referring to our one and only God whether revealed to us in Creation, manifested to us in Redemption, or coming into our hearts in Regeneration.

Every person has a soul, body and spirit, but we all are one person:

Scriptural Reference:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is the Soul, Body and Spirit of Jesus Christ, and therefore God is one Divine Person.

I John 5:7 “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

The titles Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are freely used in the scriptures, but this fact does not make three persons nor three Gods. The Bible declares that Father, Son and Holy Ghost is one person, bearing one name, “JESUS”.

To understand this truth, let us consider man. He is soul, body and spirit; but he is one person and bears one name. The three titles do not make three persons any more than soul, body and spirit make three persons. In Colossians 1:3 we read these words, “We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.. .“ Please note: “God and the Father”. Here are two titles placed together. Does this make two persons?

God the Father became Man under the name Jesus. His Human Form was the Son of God:

Scriptural References:

John 1:14 “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." John 1, All creation was made by Him (Jesus Christ)and without Him was nothing made that was made.

1 Timothy 3:16 “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

1Timothy 3:16 is one of the key verses that can only be understood by revelation, and yet must be understood if we are to grasp an understanding of the Godhead. The Amplified New Testament reads, “He (God) was made visible in human flesh”.

In the past, God has manifested Himself in many ways to man. In creation, on Mount Sinai, in the Theophanies, in the Tabernacle, God manifested Himself in a measure to man and man was able to have a certain knowledge of God. However, in the one Scripture that speaks of God being manifested we have the greatest knowledge of God ever given, for in the incarnation Christ is the express image of the invisible God. (Hebrews 1:3)

On this thought let us quote from Adam Clarke's Commentary on his note on John 17:6. “A little of the Divine nature was known by the works of creation; a little more was known by the Mosaic revelation; but the full manifestation of God, His nature, and His attributes, came only through the revelation of Christ.” - Adam Clarke.

In this regard let us always quote scripture correctly:

1. John 1:14 “The Word was made flesh.”

2. 1 Timothy 3:16 “God was manifest in the flesh.”

It was the LOGOS which was made flesh; God was manifest in the flesh. There is an important difference in these two statements which we shall see as we continue our studies.

THE MYSTERY OF GODLINESS:

The mystery of godliness is God manifesting Himself in flesh; the mystery of iniquity (2 Thessalonians 2:7) is flesh manifesting itself as God. These are contrasted in the Scriptures and man has his choice. If he does not accept the mystery of godliness, he will be compelled to accept the mystery of iniquity.

THE LOGOS IS DEITY EXPRESSED:

Scriptural Reference:

John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

“Word” is translated from the Greek “Logos”. This Greek word “Logos” means not only the expression of an inward thought, but also might attempt to define the meaning of “Logos”. We might say that the meaning of LOGOS is DEITY EXPRESSED. In other words, the “Logos” is the expression of the invisible God. The Schofield Bible says, “Deity told out"

Just as a man's thinking and expression of that thinking cannot be separated from the man himself and is in essence part of his very being, not another person, so it is with God. The scripture written by the apostle under inspiration to safeguard against the error of another person clearly states, THE LOGOS WAS GOD.

JESUS CHRIST POSSESSES A DUAL NATURE:

Jesus Christ in the incarnation possessed a dual nature: divinity and humanity. Note well that Jesus Christ was not two persons, nor did He possess two personalities. But He was God-man, the Word incarnate, God manifested as flesh. As a human being, He was the Son; as God He was the Father. As the Son many times He spoke and acted as a man; as the Father many times He spoke and acted as God. Once this truth is understood, the door is open to a clear understanding of just who Jesus really is: THE MIGHTY GOD IN CHRIST: JEHOVAH-SAVIOUR.

JESUS CHRIST IS NOT THE ETERNAL SON:

Scriptural References:

John 1:14 “...the glory as of the only begotten of the Father...” John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son

Acts 13:33 “. . .Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.”

The eternal Son theory is not scriptural. It came as the result of the Trinitarian theory and teaches a second person in the Godhead. Jesus Christ in the flesh was the begotten Son. (John 3:16) The words “begotten” and “eternal” mean the very opposite and contradict each other.

Let us quote from Adam Clarke's Commentary on his note on Acts 13:33, “Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.”

“The human nature of our blessed Lord was begotten by the energy of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the blessed virgin; for as to his Divine nature, which is allowed to be God, it could neither be created nor begotten... the doctrine of the eternal Sonship of Christ is absolutely irreconcilable to reason, and contradictory to itself. Eternity is that which has had no beginning, nor stands with any reference to time: Son supposes time, generation, and father; and time also antecedent to such generation: therefore, the rational conjunction of these two terms, Son and eternity, is absolutely impossible, as they imply essentially different and opposite ideas.” - Adam Clarke.

Harry

Kurieuo · Post by **Kurieuo** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:06 pm

I just read the first half of your post more carefully, and it seems well reasoned. I'm assuming it came from the thoughts of Emanuel Swedenborg—would you care to provide a link back to the original material?

I see that some of our differences center on defining 'substance' and 'person'. For now, I lack the time to go into these terms, so I'll simply try to detail my own position here. I believe that God consists of one underlying substance (e.g., 'soulish substance' if you will). This 'underlying substance' I believe possesses the property of an 'underlying consciousness'. By this, I mean you have three separate consciouses interpentrating each other so magnificantly and precisely that they each innately know and work with the other (perichoresis). This interpenetration of consciousnesses together form one 'underlying consciousness'. Thus, they can function separately, but are ultimately always working together.

A computer analogy I've thought of is to conceptualise a motherboard specifically made to have three CPUs. Each CPU could potentially function individually to handle individual processes, but they are ultimately all working together to handle all processes. Now extend the analogy of the motherboard and CPUs so that all components together represent one inseparable substance (rather than four separable parts), and I believe one should have a fairly accurate conception of how I view the nature of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Now to clarify your own position, you seem to advocate a form of modalism which was rejected early on within Christianity. If I understand correctly you see the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as being different titles for the one person (for example, similar to how a man can have the titles father, son, and husband depending on whether seen through his son's, father's, or wife's eyes respectively). Do you believe there is any further distinction between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit other than these different titles?

Kurieuo.

SpiritualSon · Post by **SpiritualSon** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 6:57 am

Kurieuo wrote:I just read the first half of your post more carefully, and it seems well reasoned. I'm assuming it came from the thoughts of Emanuel Swedenborg—would you care to provide a link back to the original material?

I see that some of our differences center on defining 'substance' and 'person'. For now, I lack the time to go into these terms, so I'll simply try to detail my own position here. I believe that God consists of one underlying substance (e.g., 'soulish substance' if you will). This 'underlying substance' I believe possesses the property of an 'underlying consciousness'. By this, I mean you have three separate consciouses interpentrating each other so magnificantly and precisely that they each innately know and work with the other (perichoresis). This interpenetration of consciousnesses together form one 'underlying consciousness'. Thus, they can function separately, but are ultimately always working together.

A computer analogy I've thought of is to conceptualise a motherboard specifically made to have three CPUs. Each CPU could potentially function individually to handle individual processes, but they are ultimately all working together to handle all processes. Now extend the analogy of the motherboard and CPUs so that all components together represent one inseparable substance (rather than four separable parts), and I believe one should have a fairly accurate conception of how I view the nature of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Now to clarify your own position, you seem to advocate a form of modalism which was rejected early on within Christianity. If I understand correctly you see the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as being different titles for the one person (for example, similar to how a man can have the titles father, son, and husband depending on whether seen through his son's, father's, or wife's eyes respectively). Do you believe there is any further distinction between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit other than these different titles?
Kurieuo.

Kurieuo,
I believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, is the Soul, Body and Spirit of Jesus Christ.

There are three attributes in one God, and that is creation, redemption and regeneration. One God is the Creator, Redeemer and Regenerator, not one god as the creator, another god as the Redeemer, and another god as the regenerator. Most churches believe all three persons created, which is not true, only one God created. No other gods were there as creators. Why would the Father need a son before creation, when there was no one alive to redeem? Who is He going to redeem? Maybe He redeem the Father, or the Father redeem Him, or maybe they redeem each other. Why would there be a Holy Spirit, when there was no one alive to regenerate. Regeneration means to teach and make anew. Born again, palingenesis.

Harry

bob2010 · Post by **bob2010** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:01 am

http://lightandlamp.com/god_is_one_person.htm
thats the original.

Why would the Father need a son before creation, when there was no one alive to redeem? Who is He going to redeem?

Jesus is God's divine Wisdom. Paul tells us directly in 1 Corinthians 1:24-30, and it is alluded to throughout the NT.

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 8:07 am

So you're saying, Harry, that the body of Jesus Christ was created, and that Jesus' soul and spirit are of the essence of God? Which would also imply they are eternal? I'm not sure how you disagree with Trinitarians... I don't think Trinitarians would argue or pay particular attention to the nature of Jesus' physical body except that it was human and therefore not eternal.

Edit: From the other thread: "God sending His Son does not mean one person sending another person equal too Himself. The Father's Son, is His Human Form. This means the Father became Man. The Divine and Human or Father and Son are one in Jesus Christ. They are not two, but one Divine Person."

I actually agree and yet I consider myself a trinitarian. I think your definition of 'person' is possibly creating a semantic issue when in fact there is no real inconsistency.

I'm wondering if anyone remembers those posts of early Christian writers who contemplated the nature of the Trinity. There were a few in particular that related God's nature to that of a fountain or the sun... In the sense that the water coming from a fountain is of the same essense as the fountain itself - in fact it is part of a whole. If anyone knows what I'm talking about, please post it.

AttentionKMartShoppers · Mon Aug 08, 2005 2:10 pm

I think you run into a problem with love when you say God is not a Trinity. If God is not a Trinity, how can He be love, and how can love be eternal, when you need two beings to have love? There is no such problem with a Trinity-there was love before creation between the three beings of the Trinity (butchered Francis Schaeffer, don't have the book The God Who Is There...).

SpiritualSon · Post by **SpiritualSon** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 5:23 pm

Felgar wrote:So you're saying, Harry, that the body of Jesus Christ was created, and that Jesus' soul and spirit are of the essence of God? Which would also imply they are eternal? I'm not sure how you disagree with Trinitarians... I don't think Trinitarians would argue or pay particular attention to the nature of Jesus' physical body except that it was human and therefore not eternal.

Edit: From the other thread: "God sending His Son does not mean one person sending another person equal too Himself. The Father's Son, is His Human Form. This means the Father became Man. The Divine and Human or Father and Son are one in Jesus Christ. They are not two, but one Divine Person."

I actually agree and yet I consider myself a trinitarian. I think your definition of 'person' is possibly creating a semantic issue when in fact there is no real inconsistency.

I'm wondering if anyone remembers those posts of early Christian writers who contemplated the nature of the Trinity. There were a few in particular that related God's nature to that of a fountain or the sun... In the sense that the water coming from a fountain is of the same essense as the fountain itself - in fact it is part of a whole. If anyone knows what I'm talking about, please post it.

Bob,

The Human part of Jesus became Divine, because of these words said by the Lord, Father glorifiy your Son, so that your Son may glorifiy you. To glorifiy means to make Divine. Through temptations and battles against hell, had cause the Human part of God to come Divine.

Jesus went through the samething as any baby did. Jesus was born in time, not from eternity. Jehovah God the Father came from eternity to be His Soul. Jesus was not without the Father in Him.

Jehovah God cause the virgin Mary to have a baby, and became His Soul. He was that child, as in Isaiah 9:6,Unto us a Child. He was called the everylasting Father. Jehovah God was that Child because the angels said to Mary. The Holy Spirit is the Divine Truth. Divine Good and Divine Truth are the Divine Essence of God, and is what God is. All creation was by God's Divine Good, by means of Divine Truth. Creation was not created out of nothing. but by Divine Good, by means of Divine Truth.

The Father became Man as to these words said by the angel:
The Holy Spirit, which came upon Mary signifies Divine Truth. The power of the most high, which overshadowed her, signifies Divine Good. These are the Divine Essence of Jehovah God the Father..

The Holy Spirit is the Divine going forth, thus the Divine Truth teaching, reforming, regenerating, and making alive.

This is the Divine Truth, which Jehovah God spoke through the prophets, and after He came into the world under the name Jesus Christ, He spoke from His own mouth when He was in the world.

This Divine Truth, which also is "the Word", was in the Lord from His birth as a result of His conception. Afterwards it was increased beyond all measure, that is, infinitely, and this is meant by the Spirit of Jehovah having been put upon Him. [Isa. xlii l; Matt. 3 16.]

The Spirit of Jehovah is called the Holy Spirit inasmuch as "holy" in the Word is said of Divine Truth. It is because of this that the Lord's human born in Mary is said to be "Holy" (Luke i); and the Lord Himself is said to be the "Only Holy" (Rev. 15 4); and that others are said to be holy, not from themselves, but from Him.

In the Word, Divine Good is termed "the Highest"; and so the "Power of the Highest" [Luke 1: 35] signifies Power proceeding from Divine Good.

These two things, therefore, "the Holy Spirit coming upon" and "the power of the Highest overshadowing" signify both, namely, Divine Truth and Divine Good-the latter making the soul and the former the body-and their being communicated.

Consequently, in the Lord when newly-born those two were distinct, as soul and body are, but afterwards they were united.

In the same way as takes place in a man, who is born and afterwards regenerated.

Jesus Christ is Jehovah God the Father because of these words:
It shall be said in that day, THIS IS OUR GOD; we have waited for Him that He may deliver us; THIS IS JEHOVAH, we have waited for Him; we will rejoice and be glad in His salvation (Isa. 25:9).

Harry

Kurieuo · Post by **Kurieuo** » Mon Aug 08, 2005 7:23 pm

bob2010 wrote:http://lightandlamp.com/god_is_one_person.htm
thats the original.

Thanks. I was expecting such a piece to have been plagarised, but I am still suprised that SpiritualSon quoted so much verbatim and than signed his name at the end as though such words were his.

SpiritualSon, please in future reference your sources and do not try to claim other people's words as your own. It is only the fair thing to do, not just for the original author, but also for those who spend time responding to your posts.

SpiritualSon wrote:The Human part of Jesus became Divine, because of these words said by the Lord, Father glorifiy your Son, so that your Son may glorifiy you. To glorifiy means to make Divine. Through temptations and battles against hell, had cause the Human part of God to come Divine.

Was Jesus therefore only human before being "divine"? It seems you are now also advocating Adoptionism—that Jesus rather than being the Son of God (divine) by nature, at some time during his ministry was adopted as the Son of God—a position also rejected as unorthodox by mainstream Christianity.

Such a position also causes salvational problems with Christ, for if Christ lost His humanity, then Christ is no longer associated with us and therefore cannot act as the bridge between us and God. Only someone who is both associated with humanity and God can be mediator between the two. For a 'holy' God can't directly mix with humanity unless He becomes accepting of unrighteousness, in which case He would lose His 'holiness' characteristic. Yet, a way with Christ was made who is directly associated with sinful humanity in His human nature, and directly associated with Holy God in His divine nature. It was also through Christ God was able to meet the legal requirements for maintaining His 'holiness' characteristic, and thus is able to accept humanity and directly associate with us. You drop Christ's humanity and this is no longer the case.

Kurieuo.

SpiritualSon · Post by **SpiritualSon** » Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:59 am

The Human part of Jesus became Divine, because of these words said by the Lord, Father glorifiy your Son, so that your Son may glorifiy you. To glorifiy means to make Divine. Through temptations and battles against hell, had cause the Human part of God to come Divine.
Was Jesus therefore only human before being "divine"? It seems you are now also advocating Adoptionism—that Jesus rather than being the Son of God (divine) by nature, at some time during his ministry was adopted as the Son of God—a position also rejected as unorthodox by mainstream Christianity.

The Lord made His Human Divine from the Divine in Himself called the Father. This was done by means of temptations He took on to Himself.
Jesus Christ was not fully God until all His doings was accomplish.

Redemption itself throught temptations was a subjugation of the hells, a restoration of order in the heavens, and by means of these a preparation for a new spiritual church. It is evident from many passages of the Word, of which those shall be here adduced which confirm:
That this was done by successive steps:
Jesus grew and waxed strong in spirit and in wisdom, and the grace of God was upon Him (Luke 2:40).

Jesus increased in wisdom, in age, and in grace with God and men (verse 52). He wasn't taught by another person or person #1. He was taught by the Divinity in Himself called the Father. From the Father means, from the Divine in Himself called the Father, especially when sending the Holy Spirit.

That the Divine operates through the Human, as the Soul does through the Body:
The Son can do nothing from Himself, but what He seeth the Father doing (John 5:19).

I do nothing of Myself, but as My Father hath taught Me, I speak these things and He that hath sent Me is with Me He hath not left Me alone (John 8:28, 29; 5:30). The Lord was taught by the Divine in Himself called the Father. The Father was His inner and He was the outer. The Father can not be seen. No one has seen the form of the Father. No one can comes to the Father, only by Him, which means you can only know a person's soul by seeing them in action or seeing the behavior of the person.

I have not spoken of Myself, but the Father who sent Me, He hath given Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak (John 12:49). His own Divine in Him had sent Him

The words that I speak unto you I speak not of Myself, but the Father that dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works (John 14:10). Jesus is the Father. What else is in a person, but the soul.

I am not alone, because the Father is with Me (John 16:32). The Divine in the Lord called the Father does the work through the Human. Therefore they are one and the same. This means Jesus is the Father.

Harry

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:53 am

SpiritualSon wrote:Jesus Christ was not fully God until all His doings was accomplish. ...

The Divine in the Lord called the Father does the work through the Human. Therefore they are one and the same. This means Jesus is the Father.

I'm ok with the second part, namely that Jesus IS Lord! But it's contradictory to the first part. You seem to be claiming that is was Jesus' works that made him God - which is ludicrous in my mind. God is not Holy because of what He does (or has done), but rather because of who He is. Jesus' works didn't make Him God, but rather demonstrated that He IS God.

An evidence of Jesus' divinity at birth is that He was not born into Sin - had He been, He could not have been righteous and His sacrifice would mean nothing. This is the importance of the Virgin Birth.

SpiritualSon · Post by **SpiritualSon** » Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:31 pm

Felgar wrote:
SpiritualSon wrote:Jesus Christ was not fully God until all His doings was accomplish. ...

The Divine in the Lord called the Father does the work through the Human. Therefore they are one and the same. This means Jesus is the Father.
I'm ok with the second part, namely that Jesus IS Lord! But it's contradictory to the first part. You seem to be claiming that is was Jesus' works that made him God - which is ludicrous in my mind. God is not Holy because of what He does (or has done), but rather because of who He is. Jesus' works didn't make Him God, but rather demonstrated that He IS God.

An evidence of Jesus' divinity at birth is that He was not born into Sin - had He been, He could not have been righteous and His sacrifice would mean nothing. This is the importance of the Virgin Birth.

The whole life of Jesus Christ was representative so that He might be in ultimate things, and thus from first things might subjugate the hells through ultimates and reduce all things into order. In ultimates is all strength. It is that even by all things of His passion there was represented the state of the Church, and how it was contrary to the Divine and to the truths and goods of heaven and the Church. It is an arcanum that spirits do not see a man but only his affections, also that the evil are entirely opposed to the affections of truth and good, holding them in hatred and attempting to destroy them altogether. Therefore by the Human He admitted temptations into Himself, because He was at the same time in ultimates. So also it is to be understood that He fulfilled all things of the Law.

Concerning the temptations of Jesus, with which may be compared the temptations with man. Temptations with man cause the hells to be removed, and man to become spiritual. What then was done by the temptations of the Lord, who from conception was God, and who brought them to their completion from His own Divine in Himself called the Father? Does it not follow that He subjugated all the hells, and glorified His Human? The glorification of His Human, uniting it with the Divine in Himself called the Father, took place by the passion of the cross. The cross was His last temptation. He didn't die for our sin, He bored them. Man's sins are not remove until he undergoes temptation, and this is done by repentance and good works in the name of Jesus Christ. That by means of temptations and continual victories in them, and by the passion of the cross which was the last of the temptations, the Lord completely conquered the hells, and fully glorified His Human, making it Divine.

Harry