Can of worms time.

Discussions on creation beliefs within Christianity, and topics related to creation.
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Silvertusk
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Can of worms time.

#1

Post by Silvertusk » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:39 am

Ok this might be a little contraversial but lets have it then.

What is the reason why YEC's believe that the Universe is 10,000 or 6000 years old apart from a literal interpretation of the Bible? What evidence is there from a general revelation point of view - or from natural theology if you were that shows that the world is only 6000 years old?

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Re: Can of worms time.

#2

Post by RickD » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:54 am

Ussher's chronology is one reason.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Can of worms time.

#3

Post by Silvertusk » Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:02 am

RickD wrote:Ussher's chronology is one reason.

Thanks for that Rick.

But what evidence from natural theology / general revelation or science is there?

Silvertusk.

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Re: Can of worms time.

#4

Post by neo-x » Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:04 am

Silvertusk wrote:Ok this might be a little contraversial but lets have it then.

What is the reason why YEC's believe that the Universe is 10,000 or 6000 years old apart from a literal interpretation of the Bible? What evidence is there from a general revelation point of view - or from natural theology if you were that shows that the world is only 6000 years old?
They have good theological reasons, I have no reason to doubt that the early writers of Genesis thought exactly what was written, and I'm sure Moses held the same view. 6000 years is at least not object-able from within the bible, therefore theologically it has no problems. Science does not agree and they think that science that differs from scriptures is not good science, as long as they can have one valid objection to it, it means its wrong. Though creation scientists often give lectures or books explaining the entire 4 billion part history in a span of 6000 years. Its hard to do and many questions in between but they do it nonetheless.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: Can of worms time.

#5

Post by RickD » Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:07 am

Silvertusk wrote:
RickD wrote:Ussher's chronology is one reason.

Thanks for that Rick.

But what evidence from natural theology / general revelation or science is there?

Silvertusk.
Silver, I'm afraid I can't help you there, because I believe that evidence points to Old Earth/Progressive Creationism. I could tell you to go to AIG and see what they say, and come to your own conclusions. That's what I did.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Can of worms time.

#6

Post by Silvertusk » Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:34 am

RickD wrote:
Silvertusk wrote:
RickD wrote:Ussher's chronology is one reason.

Thanks for that Rick.

But what evidence from natural theology / general revelation or science is there?

Silvertusk.
Silver, I'm afraid I can't help you there, because I believe that evidence points to Old Earth/Progressive Creationism. I could tell you to go to AIG and see what they say, and come to your own conclusions. That's what I did.

Let me just state that I am not a YEC but am genuienly curious as to what convinces them that the earth is 6000 years old? Is it one big thing or an accumulation of many evidences.

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Re: Can of worms time.

#7

Post by RickD » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:50 am

Silvertusk wrote:
RickD wrote:
Silvertusk wrote:
RickD wrote:Ussher's chronology is one reason.

Thanks for that Rick.

But what evidence from natural theology / general revelation or science is there?

Silvertusk.
Silver, I'm afraid I can't help you there, because I believe that evidence points to Old Earth/Progressive Creationism. I could tell you to go to AIG and see what they say, and come to your own conclusions. That's what I did.

Let me just state that I am not a YEC but am genuienly curious as to what convinces them that the earth is 6000 years old? Is it one big thing or an accumulation of many evidences.
That would depend upon whom you ask. Jac is a YEC. And I've never known him to believe anything theological without studying it a lot. Maybe you could pm him if you really want to know. I'm sure he has a well thought out reason to be a YEC.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Can of worms time.

#8

Post by theophilus » Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:48 am

Silvertusk wrote:Ok this might be a little contraversial but lets have it then.

What is the reason why YEC's believe that the Universe is 10,000 or 6000 years old apart from a literal interpretation of the Bible? What evidence is there from a general revelation point of view - or from natural theology if you were that shows that the world is only 6000 years old?
YEC stands for Young Earth Creation. It says nothing about the age of the rest of the universe. Perhaps this will clarify what I mean:

http://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2012/0 ... lly-say-2/

The belief that the world is older than the Bible says it is began when people rejected the Bible's account of creation and tried to find an alternative explanation for how it came into existence. They began with the assumption that there has never been any divine intervention in nature and interpreted the evidence to conform to that belief. In fact there is no way to test their conclusion to find out whether or not they are correct. They have been so successful in spreading their beliefs that most people simply accept their conclusions without examining the evidence behind them and even many Christians have been deceived into believing them.

There is evidence that the world is much younger than they say but it is often overlooked or explained away. You can find some of that evidence here:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... s-campaign
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Re: Can of worms time.

#9

Post by neo-x » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:19 am

The belief that the world is older than the Bible says it is began when people rejected the Bible's account of creation and tried to find an alternative explanation for how it came into existence. They began with the assumption that there has never been any divine intervention in nature and interpreted the evidence to conform to that belief.
Theophilus, please backup this claim with any evidence. I haven't come across any such material to suggest what you are saying here.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: Can of worms time.

#10

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:03 am

Nowhere in the bible will you find any dates in the chronological sense.
There is no mention of creation being 6000 or 8000 or 8 billion or anything.
The 6000 is from the "lineage chronology" dating back to Adam.

If our course our scientific dating of the world is inaccurate then, well, we really can't take ANY historical dates as anymore than simple "suggestions".
Considering that multiple lines of evidence are used to get to a date of some sort then most, if not all, of those lines would be incorrect.

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Re: Can of worms time.

#11

Post by RickD » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:33 am

neo-x wrote:
The belief that the world is older than the Bible says it is began when people rejected the Bible's account of creation and tried to find an alternative explanation for how it came into existence. They began with the assumption that there has never been any divine intervention in nature and interpreted the evidence to conform to that belief.
Theophilus, please backup this claim with any evidence. I haven't come across any such material to suggest what you are saying here.
You're right Neo. I don't know how I missed it when I read Theophilus' post.

Theophilus, where exactly(book, chapter, verse) does the bible say how old the earth is?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Can of worms time.

#12

Post by Ivellious » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:38 pm

From a historical perspective, no church or Christian group really had much of an opinion on the age of the Earth/universe until Ussher came along. After his book, lots of Bible printers started printing his chronology in them because it was literally the only chronology that anyone bothered to create using a particular methodology.

I have nothing against him, he was a bright guy, with a ton of time and money. I can see how just using a Bible and counting back in time using its genealogies would be logical to him, it's just that it was really neither theologically good or scientific.

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Re: Can of worms time.

#13

Post by Philip » Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:34 am

The more I contemplate this issue - from a perspective of evangelism and belief in God - I find the AGE of the universe and the precise length of God's time in creating to be FAR secondary in importance to the fact that He did indeed create a universe out of nothing. There was nothingness - nothing moving, nothing alive, and then a universe suddenly begins where there was previously nothing (and most scientists believe this). And from that seemingly early chaos emerges order and purpose. And the physical laws that directed this beginning and continuance were there at the very start. Physical laws don't create themselves!

So all these arguments, about WHEN the universe began and HOW LONG it took God to create it, are all secondary to the key fact that God actually did make it. Despite what some people who have way too much gray matter and yet far too little common sense say, a universe did not create itself. Even a multi-verse would have to have had a beginning event. Evolution questions? Those are WAY down the path (time wise) of questions about how God created or if a God was required for the beginning of the universe and life. Explain how a universe began from nothing, FIRST. We are NEVER going to know precisely how God did God-like things in which only the remaining evidences are available to contemplate. And as for an eternal Being, He must laugh daily at Christians arguing over a mere 13 billion years or so in time - ESPECIALLY as He stands outside of time.
Last edited by Philip on Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Can of worms time.

#14

Post by Silvertusk » Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:45 am

Agree with most of that and well said - except I believe God does not stand outside of time with the creation but is now part of time until time ends (which is probably never will now) - then he will be timeless again.

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Re: Can of worms time.

#15

Post by Philip » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:03 am

Agree with most of that and well said - except I believe God does not stand outside of time with the creation but is now part of time until time ends (which is probably never will now) - then he will be timeless again.
Silvertusk, how about let's just simply say that God is not limited by time - time which HE created. And He can and continuously does interact with man in real time. God is not hindered or controlled by any parameter that exists, as not only did He create them, but if He was limited by them, He could not be God - certainly, not as He is described in Scripture.

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