Jehovah witnesses

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
1stjohn0666
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#31

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:23 am

PaulSacramento wrote: You do realize that taking Jude 4 and Gen2:4 together you have presented a very big issue:
Jude 4 says that Christ is our ONLY Lord and master
Gen 2:4 says that the Lord God made Heaven and Earth.
So, according to Jude, Christ made Heaven and Earth and is God because there is only ONE Lord, Christ.
Jude 4 does not say "Lord God" it says Lord Jesus Christ or we could say "Lord Messiah"
There is no contradiction present between the two texts.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#32

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:32 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote: You do realize that taking Jude 4 and Gen2:4 together you have presented a very big issue:
Jude 4 says that Christ is our ONLY Lord and master
Gen 2:4 says that the Lord God made Heaven and Earth.
So, according to Jude, Christ made Heaven and Earth and is God because there is only ONE Lord, Christ.
Jude 4 does not say "Lord God" it says Lord Jesus Christ or we could say "Lord Messiah"
There is no contradiction present between the two texts.
You are right, there is NO contridiction at all since Jude is equating Christ with God The Father.
For a Jew like Jude THAT is a huge comment.
For a Jew there is only ONE Lord and Master and that is God.
There is no way around that.
For Jude (or Paul or John or Peter) to make the comments they do about Jesus being Lord, that is a HUGE comment on His "equalness" with the OT God YHWH.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#33

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:38 am

Hosea 13:4 — Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me; for there is no savior beside me.
And yet Jesus is our saviour.
1 Kings 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else
And yet Jesus is Lord.
Psalm 18:31 — For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?
And yet Jesus is the Lord AND the Rock.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#34

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:27 am

PaulSacramento wrote:Hosea 13:4 — Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me; for there is no savior beside me.
And yet Jesus is our saviour.
1 Kings 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else
And yet Jesus is Lord.
Psalm 18:31 — For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?
And yet Jesus is the Lord AND the Rock.
Hosea 13:4 is a nice verse Yaweh no savior beside me... Yaweh gave this authority to Jesus to bring us (Christians) to him Yaweh!!
1 Kings 8:60 Yaweh is God and none other!! It does not say or imply the Messiah is God. I think your reading the English CAPS LORD as Lord.
Psalm 18:31 in my Hebrew bible is vs. 32 (weird) Psalm 18 never implies the son, it is Yaweh.
The answer to the question is in the following verse Psalm 18:32 " the God who equipped me with strength and made my way blameless." In the opening of this Psalm it is Yaweh not Jesus!! Jesus is Lord Psalm 110:1 Davids little letter Lord is the Messiah to come, the CAPS LORD is Yaweh. Scripture presents that there is ONE Lord God and ONE Lord Messiah (Jesus Christ) Davids Rock is Yaweh!! In the NT, presupposition is in play. If one believes the trinity/preexisting son, then Christ was with the Israelites. I do not hold this view as all of the OT presents a looking forward to his coming!! I also do not hold the view because Christ was certainly not a follower of the Israelites, but his Father who is God. Peter is also a "rock" are we then to include an Apostle in this "Jesus is God" equation?

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#35

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:51 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Hosea 13:4 — Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me; for there is no savior beside me.
And yet Jesus is our saviour.
1 Kings 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else
And yet Jesus is Lord.
Psalm 18:31 — For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?
And yet Jesus is the Lord AND the Rock.
Hosea 13:4 is a nice verse Yaweh no savior beside me... Yaweh gave this authority to Jesus to bring us (Christians) to him Yaweh!!
1 Kings 8:60 Yaweh is God and none other!! It does not say or imply the Messiah is God. I think your reading the English CAPS LORD as Lord.
Psalm 18:31 in my Hebrew bible is vs. 32 (weird) Psalm 18 never implies the son, it is Yaweh.
The answer to the question is in the following verse Psalm 18:32 " the God who equipped me with strength and made my way blameless." In the opening of this Psalm it is Yaweh not Jesus!! Jesus is Lord Psalm 110:1 Davids little letter Lord is the Messiah to come, the CAPS LORD is Yaweh. Scripture presents that there is ONE Lord God and ONE Lord Messiah (Jesus Christ) Davids Rock is Yaweh!! In the NT, presupposition is in play. If one believes the trinity/preexisting son, then Christ was with the Israelites. I do not hold this view as all of the OT presents a looking forward to his coming!! I also do not hold the view because Christ was certainly not a follower of the Israelites, but his Father who is God. Peter is also a "rock" are we then to include an Apostle in this "Jesus is God" equation?
As any Jew and he will tell you that the claims made of Jesus are blasphemous because they put Him as God.
The fact is that any 1st century Jew saying the Christ was Lord and Saviour was guilty of Blasphemy for making Christ God.
Regardless of how you try to word it NOW, none of that changes that fact that for a 1dt century Jew, stating that Jesus is Lord, Saviour,, that ONLY in Jesus' name is their salvation, that Jesus is the exact form of God, that all are to worship Jesus, all that equals blasphemy for making Jesus God.
There is no way around that simple fact.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#36

Post by B. W. » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:06 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
1stjohn0666 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Hosea 13:4 — Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me; for there is no savior beside me.
And yet Jesus is our saviour.
1 Kings 8:60 — That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else
And yet Jesus is Lord.
Psalm 18:31 — For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?
And yet Jesus is the Lord AND the Rock.
Hosea 13:4 is a nice verse Yaweh no savior beside me... Yaweh gave this authority to Jesus to bring us (Christians) to him Yaweh!!
1 Kings 8:60 Yaweh is God and none other!! It does not say or imply the Messiah is God. I think your reading the English CAPS LORD as Lord.
Psalm 18:31 in my Hebrew bible is vs. 32 (weird) Psalm 18 never implies the son, it is Yaweh.
The answer to the question is in the following verse Psalm 18:32 " the God who equipped me with strength and made my way blameless." In the opening of this Psalm it is Yaweh not Jesus!! Jesus is Lord Psalm 110:1 Davids little letter Lord is the Messiah to come, the CAPS LORD is Yaweh. Scripture presents that there is ONE Lord God and ONE Lord Messiah (Jesus Christ) Davids Rock is Yaweh!! In the NT, presupposition is in play. If one believes the trinity/preexisting son, then Christ was with the Israelites. I do not hold this view as all of the OT presents a looking forward to his coming!! I also do not hold the view because Christ was certainly not a follower of the Israelites, but his Father who is God. Peter is also a "rock" are we then to include an Apostle in this "Jesus is God" equation?
As any Jew and he will tell you that the claims made of Jesus are blasphemous because they put Him as God.
The fact is that any 1st century Jew saying the Christ was Lord and Saviour was guilty of Blasphemy for making Christ God.
Regardless of how you try to word it NOW, none of that changes that fact that for a 1dt century Jew, stating that Jesus is Lord, Saviour,, that ONLY in Jesus' name is their salvation, that Jesus is the exact form of God, that all are to worship Jesus, all that equals blasphemy for making Jesus God.
There is no way around that simple fact.
Been pointing this out to 1stjohnny for some time now...

Do you get it 1stjohnny?
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#37

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:11 am

Indeed, One could see how a gentile may have been more lackadaisical in such matters but not a jew, especially not one like Paul.
That christian-jews were thrown out of the synagogues because of this, stoned and killed even, makes it clear that the accusers had no doubts and that the christian-jews accept the accusations shows they had no doubts either.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#38

Post by B. W. » Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:13 am

PaulSacramento wrote:Indeed, One could see how a gentile may have been more lackadaisical in such matters but not a jew, especially not one like Paul.
That christian-jews were thrown out of the synagogues because of this, stoned and killed even, makes it clear that the accusers had no doubts and that the christian-jews accept the accusations shows they had no doubts either.
Excellent point!
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#39

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:23 pm

PaulSacramento wrote: As any Jew and he will tell you that the claims made of Jesus are blasphemous because they put Him as God.
The fact is that any 1st century Jew saying the Christ was Lord and Saviour was guilty of Blasphemy for making Christ God.
Regardless of how you try to word it NOW, none of that changes that fact that for a 1dt century Jew, stating that Jesus is Lord, Saviour,, that ONLY in Jesus' name is their salvation, that Jesus is the exact form of God, that all are to worship Jesus, all that equals blasphemy for making Jesus God.
There is no way around that simple fact.
Jesus said his Dad was God, the Jews did not like that!!
We can follow the words of Jesus or we can follow the words of the Jews. Jesus was "given" all things and power. Jesus cannot be both giver and receiver. If Jesus is truly God , why does God give himself "stuff?"

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#40

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:48 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote: As any Jew and he will tell you that the claims made of Jesus are blasphemous because they put Him as God.
The fact is that any 1st century Jew saying the Christ was Lord and Saviour was guilty of Blasphemy for making Christ God.
Regardless of how you try to word it NOW, none of that changes that fact that for a 1dt century Jew, stating that Jesus is Lord, Saviour,, that ONLY in Jesus' name is their salvation, that Jesus is the exact form of God, that all are to worship Jesus, all that equals blasphemy for making Jesus God.
There is no way around that simple fact.
Jesus said his Dad was God, the Jews did not like that!!
We can follow the words of Jesus or we can follow the words of the Jews. Jesus was "given" all things and power. Jesus cannot be both giver and receiver. If Jesus is truly God , why does God give himself "stuff?"
If Jesus' Dad was God, then that would make Him God too, just as your Dad being human makes you human.
Jesus did NOT rebuke anyone that called Him God directly ( Thomas) or anyone that accused Him of claiming to be God.
You are having issues because you seem to continue in the notion that Jesus being God = Jesus being the Father and that is NOT correct.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#41

Post by RickD » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:56 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
1stjohn0666 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote: As any Jew and he will tell you that the claims made of Jesus are blasphemous because they put Him as God.
The fact is that any 1st century Jew saying the Christ was Lord and Saviour was guilty of Blasphemy for making Christ God.
Regardless of how you try to word it NOW, none of that changes that fact that for a 1dt century Jew, stating that Jesus is Lord, Saviour,, that ONLY in Jesus' name is their salvation, that Jesus is the exact form of God, that all are to worship Jesus, all that equals blasphemy for making Jesus God.
There is no way around that simple fact.
Jesus said his Dad was God, the Jews did not like that!!
We can follow the words of Jesus or we can follow the words of the Jews. Jesus was "given" all things and power. Jesus cannot be both giver and receiver. If Jesus is truly God , why does God give himself "stuff?"
If Jesus' Dad was God, then that would make Him God too, just as your Dad being human makes you human.
Jesus did NOT rebuke anyone that called Him God directly ( Thomas) or anyone that accused Him of claiming to be God.
You are having issues because you seem to continue in the notion that Jesus being God = Jesus being the Father and that is NOT correct.
John, this is actually pretty simple to understand. You just don't want to. "God" is not His name. "God" is who He is. Just like "human" is not my name. "Human" is what I am. Paul has explained this so anyone who is willing to understand it, can understand it. You are just unwilling to understand the truth. The more you refuse to understand the truth, the more you are hardened. And you make it more and more difficult to see what is plainly right in front of you.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#42

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:15 pm

PaulSacramento wrote: You are having issues because you seem to continue in the notion that Jesus being God = Jesus being the Father and that is NOT correct.
I think it is plainly revealed with simple words "For to us there is but one God, the Father" <---- the Father is God
Luke 1:35 because of this he will be the son of God
I don't believe God is a species like arachnids or humans. God is One. I do agree the son is not the Father. If God was "species" then everything that comes from God (including you and I) can run around claiming to be God. That would be totally false on our parts.
Shema yisrael adonai elonayhoo adonai e (clearing throat) add

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#43

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:20 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote: You are having issues because you seem to continue in the notion that Jesus being God = Jesus being the Father and that is NOT correct.
I think it is plainly revealed with simple words "For to us there is but one God, the Father" <---- the Father is God
Luke 1:35 because of this he will be the son of God
I don't believe God is a species like arachnids or humans. God is One. I do agree the son is not the Father. If God was "species" then everything that comes from God (including you and I) can run around claiming to be God. That would be totally false on our parts.
Shema yisrael adonai elonayhoo adonai e (clearing throat) add
Jesus was begotten, we were created, what is begotten shares the same nature, what is created has it's own nature.
You are throwing out or ignoring all the Paul and John wrote about Jesus' nature being the same as Gods.
Not sure why because there is nothing wrong with believing that Jesus and His Father have the same nature.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#44

Post by RickD » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:20 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote: You are having issues because you seem to continue in the notion that Jesus being God = Jesus being the Father and that is NOT correct.
I think it is plainly revealed with simple words "For to us there is but one God, the Father" <---- the Father is God
Luke 1:35 because of this he will be the son of God
I don't believe God is a species like arachnids or humans. God is One. I do agree the son is not the Father. If God was "species" then everything that comes from God (including you and I) can run around claiming to be God. That would be totally false on our parts.
Shema yisrael adonai elonayhoo adonai e (clearing throat) add
John, have you actually prayed about this? I mean earnestly prayed that God would show you the truth in this? Pray that God would open your eyes to the truth. It is a matter of your salvation. There is nothing more important in your life than this. If you earnestly pray, and you're open to the truth, God will show you. It's up to you John. Do you want to see the truth about who Jesus is?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#45

Post by jlay » Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:42 am

RickD wrote: John, have you actually prayed about this? I mean earnestly prayed that God would show you the truth in this? Pray that God would open your eyes to the truth. It is a matter of your salvation. There is nothing more important in your life than this. If you earnestly pray, and you're open to the truth, God will show you. It's up to you John. Do you want to see the truth about who Jesus is?
Let me jump in the fray.
Rick, is it a requirement to accept the Trinity to be saved? Now, I say this as one who accepts the Trinity. Of course, no one can really explain the Trinity. In fact, men are said to have gone mad just from intense study of it. John says, But these are written, that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you might have life through his name. John 20:31.
Nowhere in the books of the Bible is the Trinity presented as a doctrine. The doctrine is formed by a systematic study of the scriptures. So, does 1stjohns salvation depend on accepting a Trinitarian view?
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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