going to hell?

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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B. W.
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Re: going to hell?

#286

Post by B. W. » Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:35 pm

Butterfly wrote:
B. W. wrote:
Butterfly wrote:Does it not seem odd that for all the Bible has to say about unity, its ultimate message is if one does not in this short life connect with "God" through salvation, one is to be forever separated (in hell) without hope of unification. Where is restoration? How can what started as a whole "God" be reconciled if some of the parts are forever separated? Isn't the whole now less than the whole?
I Find it odd that you posted this on another thread:
Butterfly wrote:
jlay wrote:
Butterfly wrote:
I would choose to give the murderer a life sentence. Taking a life does not bring back the life of the victim, so if perchance the murderer can in someway do something with his life that could benefit humanity no matter how small, I would choose that. A life for a life benefits no one.
So you would send him to prison even though he would not have you do that unto him?
You, see, if the GR is taken subjectively, even objectively in the weak sense, one will have to import other moral values. And so then, how do we decide which one's to follow and when? It can't be the GR itself, because it just insists that we follow our desire how we would be treated.
I'm not quite sure what your getting at, but I think if I were a murderer I would rather have life in prison than execution.
jlay wrote:What's best for society? What's best for the victim's family? Those are all just personal values.
Yes, those are just personal values, just like the decision of whether to execute the murderer, or give him life in prison.
Butterfly wrote:I'm not quite sure what your getting at, but I think if I were a murderer I would rather have life in prison than execution.
Oh the glory of God - eternal life sentence in God's eternal prison - which you prefer according to your statement

And you calling God unjust for granting you what you prefer?
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I find it odd that you didn't answer my questions:

1."Where is restoration?"
2."How can what started as a whole "God" be reconciled if some of the parts are forever separated?"
3."Isn't the whole now less than the whole?"
I equally find it odd that your questions make absolutely no sense... for the subject matter of this thread

These question sound like they came from someone smoking too much of something... :violin: y@-)
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Re: going to hell?

#287

Post by B. W. » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:05 pm

Butterfly wrote:
Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Butterfly wrote:I know the ex nihilo theory is very popular, but what bugs me about it is if god is all in all then there was nothing outside of god from which to create...
This isn't Christianity. God being all in all is a panentheistic vue, in that all reality is in - and generated by - god. God being all is a pantheistic vue, in that god is real but every thing is an illusion.

FL
I was responding to Dan's post on ex nihilo, where I said IF god is all in all. I did not say that is what I believe. As I responded to RickD, I'm leaning toward the idea of being part of a universal collective consciousness, not pantheism.
Collective consciousness was a term coined in psychology by the French sociologist Émile Durkheim (1858–1917) to refer to the shared beliefs and moral attitudes which operate as a unifying force within society. One might recommend collective conscience as a superior translation of Durkheim's concept, in part due to the busy association of the word "consciousness" with both Marxist and Freudian thought, but also as "a conscience for Durkheim is pre-eminently the organ of sentiments and representations; it is not the rational organ that the term consciousness would imply."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_consciousness
How can the Collective Consciousness survive when two conflicting human derived Golden Rules collide – Sadomasochism verses those who don’t practice it?

It does not surprise me that you believe in the Collective Consciousness (see bellow). Next, as for Universal Collective Consciousness spiritualism, it follows the same guidelines of the Collective Consciousness - sameness:
Louis Althusser, an avid Marxist, specifically concerned himself with the "making" of the individual as a process of external coercion. In his formulation, the subject is created via a top-down network of “Ideological State Apparatuses,” or ISAs, which “present themselves to the immediate observer in the form of distinct and specialized institutions”(Althusser 143). At the top of the structure is The State, which aims to control the bottom (the individual subjects) through a series of institutional mediations.

ISAs present all forms of communication and information to the public. They are every imaginable institution: Education, The Media, Law, Religion, etc. These ISAs direct power onto the subject at all times, honing her from the outside into the subjective (and subjected) body that will uphold and reproduce the power of The State.

In Althusser’s formulation, the inwardness of an individual member of the public is born from a lifetime bombardment of external coercion-- individuals come to fulfill certain common duties, have common aspirations, follow common life-trajectories, etc. The “consciousness” of each individual is not something which originates from a singular interior spirit, but rather is pressured into being by the external devices of the State. Thus, collective consciousness again represents the individual’s relationship to a larger group or structure, but marks the sameness (the same set of ISAs applies to all subjects) among members of that group, which act to make that group a cohesive whole.

http://csmt.uchicago.edu/glossary2004/c ... usness.htm
If you wish to discuss this Universal Collective Consciousness spiritualism further - please start another thread on a appropriate Forum genre...
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Re: going to hell?

#288

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:18 pm

Butterfly wrote:I'm leaning toward the idea of being part of a universal collective consciousness, not pantheism.
Universal collective consciousness? That sounds Jungian...and pantheistic. Or maybe it's a form of deism? You would have to elaborate. I must say that I am a little disappointed! You must be in your 50s - based on your name - and you are evidently smart (I read your blog) so why have you adopted such a bizarre worldview?

y~o) FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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Re: going to hell?

#289

Post by B. W. » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:21 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Butterfly wrote:I'm leaning toward the idea of being part of a universal collective consciousness, not pantheism.
Universal collective consciousness? That sounds Jungian...and pantheistic. Or maybe it's a form of deism? You would have to elaborate. I must say that I am a little disappointed! You must be in your 50s - based on your name - and you are evidently smart (I read your blog) so why have you adopted such a bizarre worldview?

y~o) FL

Most likely a form Hegelian dialectic at work here salted with a bit of Jung to fit everyone's taste...

Universal Collective Consciousness Spiritualism to replace existing concepts of God/religion to fit the sameness of collective will of the mob. Through the three step model of Hegel:

Step 1 - First you create a problem (in this case for this Forum - can be anything perceived about the bible – male dominance, Heaven and Hell teachings, Biblically based Morality, etc…)

Step 2 -Then you generate opposition to the problem (create a disturbance of thought, motivate opposition by means of manipulating human induce repulsion, fear, sympathy to bind with the oppositional movement with the goal to build up a mob, etc – in our case here on this Forum – biblical opposition to foundational truths of right and wrong, morality, heaven and hell, eternal judgment, etc)

Step 3 -After this you offer the solution to the problem created by step one after having a mob to back you – you force universal collective social/religious change by skilled agitators…

This type of change would be impossible to impose without proper psychological conditioning of the masses by means of interjection of thought (such as doubt, fear, stereotyping, class envy, etc and etc) accomplished within the first two stages to gain the mob needed for collective change.
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Old Polish Proverb:
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Re: going to hell?

#290

Post by Butterfly » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:16 am

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Butterfly wrote:I'm leaning toward the idea of being part of a universal collective consciousness, not pantheism.
Universal collective consciousness? That sounds Jungian...and pantheistic. Or maybe it's a form of deism? You would have to elaborate. I must say that I am a little disappointed! You must be in your 50s - based on your name - and you are evidently smart (I read your blog) so why have you adopted such a bizarre worldview?

y~o) FL
Since this isn't the appropriate thread to discuss my spiritual beliefs I will leave it at saying don't be so quick to judge my beliefs as "bizarre", until you know exactly what I mean by the term Universal Collective Consciousness (yes, I got a lot of my ideas from Jung), and it's not Pantheism. As far as being bizarre...don't you think Christianity has some pretty "bizarre" aspects to it? What about a garden with a talking serpent, and killing animals to forgive sins, or being cursed for the desire to have wisdom? Those are just a few of the pretty strange beliefs that Christians hold to if they are Bible believers.
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Re: going to hell?

#291

Post by RickD » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:41 am

Universal collective consciousness is new-age. Belief that we are gods. The problem is, that new-age isn't so new. It has its roots in the garden with the fall of man. Adam and Eve wanted to be as God, so they believed Satan's lie, and ate the fruit.
Genesis 3:1-5 3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”



Oh wait, I'm sorry. Please forgive me. It wasn't Adam and Eve who were deceived. It was Eve who was deceived, and convinced Adam to eat of the fruit. Now why do I get the feeling of deja vu? Let's see...Butterfly an Spock, sitting around a campfire...

Spock, I think you need to take the role of spiritual leader here, and get you and your wife out of this new age garbage, and get back to the loving God who is waiting for you to come to Him through faith in Christ.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: going to hell?

#292

Post by Byblos » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:01 am

RickD wrote:Oh wait, I'm sorry. Please forgive me. It wasn't Adam and Eve who were deceived. It was Eve who was deceived, and convinced Adam to eat of the fruit. Now why do I get the feeling of deja vu? Let's see...Butterfly an Spock, sitting around a campfire...

Spock, I think you need to take the role of spiritual leader here, and get you and your wife out of this new age garbage, and get back to the loving God who is waiting for you to come to Him through faith in Christ.
You go on with your unabashedly biased self Rick. :mrgreen:
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: going to hell?

#293

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:37 am

Butterfly wrote:Since this isn't the appropriate thread to discuss my spiritual beliefs I will leave it at saying don't be so quick to judge my beliefs as "bizarre", until you know exactly what I mean by the term Universal Collective Consciousness (yes, I got a lot of my ideas from Jung), and it's not Pantheism. As far as being bizarre...don't you think Christianity has some pretty "bizarre" aspects to it? What about a garden with a talking serpent, and killing animals to forgive sins, or being cursed for the desire to have wisdom? Those are just a few of the pretty strange beliefs that Christians hold to if they are Bible believers.
Well, you have a point when you mention the talking serpent: that does seem really bizarre when taken out of context. The term I originally wanted to use was hocus pocus, as in ''why have you adopted such a hocus pocus worldview?'' I then felt that it sounded condemning, so I changed it to ''bizarre''. My wife says I lack tact and I'm trying to reform...(I wish I had some of that male bias to put her in her place!)

At first I thought you were an atheist. I am disappointed that you have adopted New Ageism as I think it is an even more secure prison than atheism.

FL :crying:
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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Re: going to hell?

#294

Post by RickD » Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:08 am

Byblos wrote:
RickD wrote:Oh wait, I'm sorry. Please forgive me. It wasn't Adam and Eve who were deceived. It was Eve who was deceived, and convinced Adam to eat of the fruit. Now why do I get the feeling of deja vu? Let's see...Butterfly an Spock, sitting around a campfire...

Spock, I think you need to take the role of spiritual leader here, and get you and your wife out of this new age garbage, and get back to the loving God who is waiting for you to come to Him through faith in Christ.
You go on with your unabashedly biased self Rick. :mrgreen:
Sorry Byblos, biblegod has me brainwashed. :wave:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: going to hell?

#295

Post by Butterfly » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:05 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Butterfly wrote:Since this isn't the appropriate thread to discuss my spiritual beliefs I will leave it at saying don't be so quick to judge my beliefs as "bizarre", until you know exactly what I mean by the term Universal Collective Consciousness (yes, I got a lot of my ideas from Jung), and it's not Pantheism. As far as being bizarre...don't you think Christianity has some pretty "bizarre" aspects to it? What about a garden with a talking serpent, and killing animals to forgive sins, or being cursed for the desire to have wisdom? Those are just a few of the pretty strange beliefs that Christians hold to if they are Bible believers.
Well, you have a point when you mention the talking serpent: that does seem really bizarre when taken out of context. The term I originally wanted to use was hocus pocus, as in ''why have you adopted such a hocus pocus worldview?'' I then felt that it sounded condemning, so I changed it to ''bizarre''. My wife says I lack tact and I'm trying to reform...(I wish I had some of that male bias to put her in her place!)

At first I thought you were an atheist. I am disappointed that you have adopted New Ageism as I think it is an even more secure prison than atheism.

FL :crying:
I do not call myself an atheist, nor have I adopted New Ageism (which you should know if you read my blog). After being freed from the biblical box that narrowed my vision to one perspective, I now am free to look at everything from all angles. I mentioned I was leaning toward the idea of Universal Collective Consciousness in response to your saying I was a Pantheist, but I did not elaborate on it any further. If anyone would like to know more I have written extensively about my journey out of Christianity on my blog...here are links to a couple of those articles Progress Report and Second Progress Report.

Please don't be too sad, I am exceedingly happy experiencing life to its fullest with my wonderful husband right by my side. :mrgreen:
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Last edited by Butterfly on Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: going to hell?

#296

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:22 pm

Butterfly wrote:I am not an atheist, nor have I adopted New Ageism (which you should know if you read my blog).
You're right. By way of explanation, I thought you were an atheist when I read some of your comments in various topics here. I also remember reading something about two Christian cults you & Spock were involved in. I don't spend much time with atheists because I know it is pointless, so since I thought you were an atheist, I never followed your posts. I just read them now & then. Now you know.

I will read your blog about your journey out of nominal Christianity.

FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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Re: going to hell?

#297

Post by Butterfly » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:37 pm

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Butterfly wrote:I am not an atheist, nor have I adopted New Ageism (which you should know if you read my blog).
You're right. By way of explanation, I thought you were an atheist when I read some of your comments in various topics here. I also remember reading something about two Christian cults you & Spock were involved in. I don't spend much time with atheists because I know it is pointless, so since I thought you were an atheist, I never followed your posts. I just read them now & then. Now you know.

I will read your blog about your journey out of nominal Christianity.

FL
Richard (Spock) and I were never involved in any cults together. The only cult I was ever involved in was Christian Science and that was only for a few years in my late teens. I don't call myself an atheist, but I do reject the biblegod and all the gods of other religions...I'm still looking...
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Re: going to hell?

#298

Post by RickD » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:01 pm

Butterfly wrote:
but I do reject the biblegod
Is this rejection beyond the point of no return? Or, are you still open?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: going to hell?

#299

Post by Butterfly » Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:25 pm

RickD wrote:
Butterfly wrote:
but I do reject the biblegod
Is this rejection beyond the point of no return? Or, are you still open?
Yes, I'm still open to listen to any new idea, insight, or evidence. Remember, I got to the point where I'm at by having an open mind to look at other perspectives. :mrgreen:
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Re: going to hell?

#300

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:06 pm

Butterfly wrote:If anyone would like to know more I have written extensively about my journey out of Christianity on my blog...here are links to a couple of those articles Progress Report and Second Progress Report.
Both links you provided are for the Progress Report dated March 21, 2011. Ooops!
Butterfly wrote:Richard (Spock) and I were never involved in any cults together.
Sorry! I thought Word of Faith was also a cult.

FL yp**==
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

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