Jesus is YHVH??

[1stjohn0666]

nested quotes. [/quote]

[1stjohn0666]

well that didn't work .... can I have instructions

[Byblos]

looks right?

Hallelujah. It's a start. Next step is nested quotes.

well that didn't work .... can I have instructions

See the quotes above? This is how they will look like when you click the QUOTE button (note that I replaced brackets with parentheses so the text is not actually quoted):

(quote="Byblos")(quote="1stjohn0666")looks right?(/quote)

Hallelujah. It's a start. Next step is nested quotes. (/quote)

Notice that for every '(quote)' there should be a closing '(/quote)'. This way any text appearing in between those will be displayed as a separate block. If there are quotes within quotes then there should be an outer (quote)...(/quote) and an inner (quote)...(/quote). The inner text will then appear as a separate box inside the outer box.

In order to quote the user name of the person then you should have in the opening quote the following (quote="user name") where after the word 'quote' it is followed by = sign, double quote symbol ", the user name, and double quote symbol again followed by the right bracket so it will look like this:

I now know how to quote. Thanks.

.

If you're not totally confused please let me know if that helped.

[Thwarp]

Wow...........I've glimpsed over this thread a bit and I've come to the conclusion that a few of us are missing some important items that need careful thought.
We must understand Daniel 7:13-14
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Ok.....this doesn't seem to hard to understand that The Son of Man (Jesus) was given dominion and glory and a kingdom that will last forever.
Jesus himself laid claim to the title Son of Man tons of times in the New testament alone.
John 8:28
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Who gave him all this? The Ancient of Days. God the father. Can we assume by this that there was a point when Christ didn't have dominion, and authority? You bet because prior to the giving he didn't have these things. But when were these things given? Prior to the creation of the universe or shortly thereafter? Does it matter?

It seems Jesus was given the dominion and authority over everything from the beginning.

Check this out . Yeshua is revealed throughout the Bible from Genesis to Revelation as both God and man. At times Yeshua appears in a glorified form, emphasizing His divinity. At other times, He appears in an earthly form, emphasizing His humanity.

Hebrews 13:8
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. So yes he was active in the Old testament quite clearly. How was he active?
His claim to divinity is without question in many verses of the Bible. Yeshua (Jesus) is revealed throughout the Bible from Genesis to Revelation as both God and man. At times Yeshua appears in a glorified form, emphasizing His divinity. At other times, He appears in an earthly form, emphasizing His humanity. But he wasn't given the name Yeshua until his birth in Bethlehem. In fact his name (Yeshua) was never revealed until then. If I remember correctly he actually refused to give it out somewhere in the OT.

There's also a scripture that I just can't recall most of the wording to do a word search effectively in which Jesus uses the claim "I Am" in reference to himself. In any case.... WOW. A mind Blower indeed.

The belief that is impossible to see God is partially true and partially not true. John 1:18 John 5:37 1John 4:12
Since Yeshua is the same - yesterday, today and forever (Hebrews 13:8), so His nature as both God and man is the same - yesterday, today and forever. Therefore He will be both human and divine in the future millennium and the new creation; and His dual nature already existed in the past.

Genesis 12:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 And Adonai (The Lord) appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.

The word for Lord here is Adonai, which is the plural form of "The Lord" from what I can gather so far, Most often used in reference to the name Yehovah. Plural form? Think about that. Sure its not meant to denote 1 Yehovah and 2 angels. It seems to me that if Adonai is the plural form of Yehovah then its denoting the nature of the the name itself. Woah, Deep.

Genesis 18:1
And Yehovah appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day
And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

Wow........three men and one of them was? Well........read through the conversation. Its all over the place just before Sodom and Gomorrah get destroyed.
22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before Yehovah .

Wow 3 visitors 1) Yehovah and 2) two angels. But through out Gen 18 there is not one indication that Abraham does not recognize to who he is speaking. He treats him as someone he already knows. The three figures of the group are called men 3 times in Gen 18. The central figure is refered to as Yehovah 4 times!

At this point one can reasonably argue that Yeshua is not the figure in Gen 18.(but its still him anyway) However it cannot be reasonably argued the Gen 18 text DOES NOT describe the appearance of Yehovah in bodily form. It most certainly does. Too cool.

Not lets skip quickly over to the NT.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Its easy to grasp why people think its impossible to see God but when taken in context we have to force ourselves to look differently at the picture. The fact that people do not normally see God does not mean the He is un-seeable. Rather because we are sinners we are not able to see him. If we were to seem him in his FULL POWER (Glory) it would kill us dead as a post.
Exodus 33:17-20
17 And Adonai (The Lord) said to Moses, “This very thing that you have spoken I will do, for you have found favor in my sight, and I know you by name.” 18 Moses said, “Please show me your glory.” 19 And he said, “I will make all my goodness pass before you and will proclaim before you my name ‘The Lord.’ And I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”

Yet we see Abraham survived several times and apparently Moses did too. Only here Moses pleads with the Lord to Show him his Glory. It seems that Moses wants to see the face of God with the Glory turned up to full power. But that cannot be because he could not handle it and thus DIE. Moses spends 40 days on the mountain in Yehovah's presence enjoying his company and talking about many things. Even with the little amount of Glory revealed to Moses he wants more and can't have it....YET. But he still comes down from the mountain , his face and glowing and his hair ....well read it. I have had brothers walk out of 1st service on Sunday Morning as I was walking in for 2nd only to see them glowing and stoney eyed. Yeah buddy....they've been in the presence of The Lord this morning.

Now to answer if Yeshua and Yehovah are the same.
Lets look at John John 8:56-57
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Whoah Nelly........here it is in Black and white and words of Christ in red ! Here's Jesus claiming to have been face to face with Abraham. Even those Jewish teachers to whom he was speaking recognised exactly what he was saying and angered them so much they sough to stone him. Obviously they didn't think he was mental but a heretic blasphemer. Without giving any thought to Hebrew law in bringing him up to trial they thought themselves above the law enough to stone him on the spot !! They must have been royally put off indeed!

So yes............if Jesus is claiming to be Jehovah then you have two options. 1. He's a nut and needs serious psychiatric help or 2. He is Jehovah too. But Not the father. Because if he was the father then whom would he have approached and stood before in Dan 7:13-14? Also given that issue alone I think I can safely assume that when Yehovah approached the ancient of Days , that it also happened prior to creation of life or shortly thereafter. (hard to say and seemingly irrelevant) What a mind bender to say the least but quite excellent more so.



So to answer some folks dissertation that God cannot be seen. Yes you can and no you can't. Its all in the level that he chooses to reveal himself it seems.
If I recall I think Stephen got to see The Lords Full Glory as he was dying. I mean why not? He was dying anyway right? Good for him.

Moses eventually got his hearts desire when he appeared with Yeshua in the ascension.

There's much more on that topic alone with tons of more ground to cover.

I'm personally just beginning to study the claims of Jesus also being Yehovah . But to grasp it you also have to grasp the teachings on the Lords Triune nature and its kinda of difficult to grasp right now but seemingly within reach.

You pretty much have to learn the ways he revealed himself in the Torah and then the way he reveals himself in the New Testament. It also seems like a long study too. Not that it can't be fully fathomed in our lifetime. But it most certainly can be grasped though. As I can see from it so far its extremely difficult to summarize in one book let alone a forum.

But so far I have received much understanding from "Who Ate Lunch with Abraham"(I like the catchy title) by Asher Intrater who is a well studied Messianic Jew who in this book writes about how even The Torah and Old Testiment teaches about the triune nature of God and reveals Jesus as Yehovah .

I have had that book less than 2 days and I'm half way through it. Just a very engrossing book full of great stuff I've read before but I either never fully understood or just didn't consider some of the implications of whats being said. Its truely and eye opener once you begin to understand. I'm also enjoying the fact that Judaism and Christianity are also both one in the same.

[B. W.]

Here is a short answer:

As for Daniel 7 – please note that John 1:1-14 and Revelation 19 speaks of the Lord conquering all rebellion and reestablishing His Kingdom on Earth. That is what Daniel 7:13-15 is referring too.

For Gen 18 - Please go to this link and read Post 15 through 18 as it addresses Genesis 18 in greater detail:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 203#p63203
-
-
-

[Thwarp]

Here is a short answer:

As for Daniel 7 – please note that John 1:1-14 and Revelation 19 speaks of the Lord conquering all rebellion and reestablishing His Kingdom on Earth. That is what Daniel 7:13-15 is referring too.

For Gen 18 - Please go to this link and read Post 15 through 18 as it addresses Genesis 18 in greater detail:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 203#p63203
-
-
-

Well I think regarding Dan 7 you may have miss my 2 points. (Maybe I didn't communicate it well enough, which I'm prone to) and that is we see 1. The ancient of Days and 2. The Son of Man approaching him while in the NT reference we see Jesus saying many times that he is The Son of Man as spoken of in the OT. That's pretty much all I meant to communicate. Two distinctly separate entities.

However regarding Gen 18 Yes I considered that as well when when I saw the three and the Plural use of his name there somewhere. However I must consider the fact that in Gen 18:22 we see the two men head towards Sod and Gomorrah leaving Abraham and Adonai behind to talk. In the following verses we see Abraham talking to "THE LORD. (referenced more than twice used) From 18:1 through the end of the chapter we never see Abraham conversing with the other to "men" just the one who was seemingly in charge of the situation as you will note in the private talks after the other two left.

Then we get to 19:1 where I think we see the identity of the other two "men" revealed as they are referred to as angels (lowered case). However whenever theres a reference in the OT to the Angel of the Lord used in upper case we know to whom the reference belongs. All references to angels in the lower case are references to angels or messengers on a mission. Not of devine nature (sorry if thats a bad use of the term devine nature. I seem to lack knowlege grossly) .

So on one hand while I considered the possibility of the 3 being one in the same , the reference in 19:1 throws me off to the point where I have serious doubt about them being part of the trinity. I'm almost certain they were part of the mission to the twin cities as you'll notice in 18:22 that both men had already turned and headed for Sodom before Abraham begain pleading with the Lord to not destroy the cities for the sake of any righteous folks there. So the men (angels) were already on their way to get Lot and family out before the cities destruction.

On a cool thought (slightly off topic)
Oh yeah......... The Lord had this mapped out long before the 3 appeared at Abrahams home as well. If he didn't have it all planned why else would the angel have gone on ahead without getting instructions following the talk between Abraham and the Lord? Seems he already knew there was less than 10 righteous folks in town. So rather than spare the town as he agreed to with Abraham he got Lot and family out and leveled the cities by charging the 2 angels to get them out. Obviously they were given a little bit of power to accomplish their task. Blinding the reprobates with light. Oh dear......seems to me they may have used the Glory of The Lord here. But txt is non-specific. so why would I assume to this? Can't angels be given limited power to attain a specific task? It would be like giving special ops team a special too during a specific mission type.

Oh dear I'm babbling again. I'm sorry my brother. Seems my thoughts can carry on a bit.

Shalom

[B. W.]

Here is a short answer:

As for Daniel 7 – please note that John 1:1-14 and Revelation 19 speaks of the Lord conquering all rebellion and reestablishing His Kingdom on Earth. That is what Daniel 7:13-15 is referring too.

For Gen 18 - Please go to this link and read Post 15 through 18 as it addresses Genesis 18 in greater detail:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 203#p63203
-
-
-

Well I think regarding Dan 7 you may have miss my 2 points. (Maybe I didn't communicate it well enough, which I'm prone to) and that is we see 1. The ancient of Days and 2. The Son of Man approaching him while in the NT reference we see Jesus saying many times that he is The Son of Man as spoken of in the OT. That's pretty much all I meant to communicate. Two distinctly separate entities.

However regarding Gen 18 Yes I considered that as well when when I saw the three and the Plural use of his name there somewhere. However I must consider the fact that in Gen 18:22 we see the two men head towards Sod and Gomorrah leaving Abraham and Adonai behind to talk. In the following verses we see Abraham talking to "THE LORD. (referenced more than twice used) From 18:1 through the end of the chapter we never see Abraham conversing with the other to "men" just the one who was seemingly in charge of the situation as you will note in the private talks after the other two left.

Then we get to 19:1 where I think we see the identity of the other two "men" revealed as they are referred to as angels (lowered case). However whenever theres a reference in the OT to the Angel of the Lord used in upper case we know to whom the reference belongs. All references to angels in the lower case are references to angels or messengers on a mission. Not of devine nature (sorry if thats a bad use of the term devine nature. I seem to lack knowlege grossly) .

So on one hand while I considered the possibility of the 3 being one in the same , the reference in 19:1 throws me off to the point where I have serious doubt about them being part of the trinity. I'm almost certain they were part of the mission to the twin cities as you'll notice in 18:22 that both men had already turned and headed for Sodom before Abraham begain pleading with the Lord to not destroy the cities for the sake of any righteous folks there. So the men (angels) were already on their way to get Lot and family out before the cities destruction.

On a cool thought (slightly off topic)
Oh yeah......... The Lord had this mapped out long before the 3 appeared at Abrahams home as well. If he didn't have it all planned why else would the angel have gone on ahead without getting instructions following the talk between Abraham and the Lord? Seems he already knew there was less than 10 righteous folks in town. So rather than spare the town as he agreed to with Abraham he got Lot and family out and leveled the cities by charging the 2 angels to get them out. Obviously they were given a little bit of power to accomplish their task. Blinding the reprobates with light. Oh dear......seems to me they may have used the Glory of The Lord here. But txt is non-specific. so why would I assume to this? Can't angels be given limited power to attain a specific task? It would be like giving special ops team a special too during a specific mission type.

Oh dear I'm babbling again. I'm sorry my brother. Seems my thoughts can carry on a bit.

Shalom

Hi Thwarp,

I only added another aspect to your other two points regarding Daniel 7. It is also part of John 3:16 is why the Lord will set up his Kingdom on earth to unite with Heaven.

Anyway, keep on babbling - you write good post

Shalom
-
-
-

[RickD]

More scriptural proof that Jesus is God:
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/s ... FXcUDx5mc0

[1stjohn0666]

More scriptural proof that Jesus is God:
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/s ... FXcUDx5mc0

I read the article and this statement was among the list:
Who is our Father? Isaiah 9:6
According to the doctrine of the trinity Jesus (the son) is not the Father. If Jesus is the Father then the doctrine becomes "the oneness doctrine" ..... correct?

[B. W.]

More scriptural proof that Jesus is God:
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/s ... FXcUDx5mc0

I read the article and this statement was among the list:
Who is our Father? Isaiah 9:6
According to the doctrine of the trinity Jesus (the son) is not the Father. If Jesus is the Father then the doctrine becomes "the oneness doctrine" ..... correct?

Isaiah 9:6- “everlasting Father” please note John 10:30; John 14:9

One divine essence…

No contradiction here is it?

Next the word translated from Hebrew comes from a compound word. A Hebrew word made up by joining two words together. The word order is important and reads ‘father eternal’ – however, the word translated eternal is not the word normally translated as eternal in Hebrew but rather the word actually means: dwelling place for a continuing throne. Since it continues is how translators came up with everlasting.

As for the word father in Hebrew means the originator/creator/author. Therefore the texts reads and means Originator of a continual never ending dwelling place. God the Father is not being mentioned in the text at all but rather the preincarnate Christ as revealed in the OT who worked in concord with the Father and Holy Spirit to create… John 10:30; John 14:9 backs this up as well.

You know not God of the bible…

You need Jesus Christ, the real Christ who can save you… not the created being named jesus you believe in but rather the Real Jesus who saves...

Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

Isaiah 43:10, 11 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. 11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.

Isaiah 45:21, 22, 23 Declare what is to be, present it-- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. 22 "Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. 23 By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.

John 1:1-4, 14, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind…. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Bible quotes from NIV and NASB
-
-
-

[RickD]

John, let's make this simple. If Jesus is God, then he deserves worship and can be prayed to. If Jesus is NOT God as you say, then it would be idolatry to pray to him, correct?

In light of your belief that Jesus is not God, how do you explain these verses?

John 14:13-14: 13 Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

Jesus is saying we are to pray to him. Notice the verse says "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it." Jesus is saying to ask Him directly. Not ask the Father in Jesus' name.

Acts 7:54-59: 54 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the quick, and they began gnashing their teeth at him. 55 But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; 56 and he said, “Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.” 57 But they cried out with a loud voice, and covered their ears and rushed at him with one impulse. 58 When they had driven him out of the city, they began stoning him; and the witnesses laid aside their robes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!”

Stephen, who was full of the Holy Spirit, PRAYED to Jesus. He didn't pray to the Father through Jesus, he prayed directly to Jesus.

[Thwarp]

All excellent points so far. I would like to add that Jesus himself prayed to his father in the gospels. He even told us no man comes to the father but by me.
If you've seen me you've seen the father.
No Jesus isn't claiming to be the Father. He say's everything the father tells him to say and do. The father is in him and he is in the bosom of the father.

Well..........on and on about the Trinity I cannot fully fathom it yet.

I do know its cool to worship the Lord. The Father is always pointing to him. Look at my Son !
Be ye imitators of Christ. As he is just like his Father so we will be like him too.......eventually.

But it's so hard to grasp.

An excellent Book on beginning to understand the trinity, specifically the God-Yehovah, Angel-Yehovah, God-Man, Son of Man experience. I recommend very highly "Who Ate Lunch with Abraham" by Asher Intrater who does a super job of explaining the complex ways in which Jesus (I prefer Yeshua more now after reading the book) reveals himself from Genesis to Revelation. I even understand "I am the Apha and Omega, the beginning and the End" More now after the reading. He is saying Hey..... I'm the same person from Genesis to Revelation. Look....Its me. Nobody else. The hebrew word for genesis is the same word used for beginning. There is no differentiating it.

But like I said its a good book to begin to grasp it. Its needed for solid footing for even deeper understanding.
Unfortunately the book is out of stock at Amazon or anywhere else for that matter. Some copies can be found for the low price of $100. But thats the cheapest I've found.
But if a digital copy is ok then Amazon has it.
h[url]ttp://www.amazon.com/Who-Lunch-Abraham-Asher- ... M1JXZH29A7[/url]

If you must have a paper back then the only place it can be found that I've seen is from the author's website. You need a paypal account though. But it's only $15.
http://revive-israel.org/books.php I need a couple copies to share.

[PaulSacramento]

I think the first step in understanding this is to accept that everytime God spoke/showed Himself in the OT, it was Jesus.

[RickD]

Hebrews 1:8
NASB:

8 But of the Son He says,

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
And the righteous scepter is the scepter of [a]His kingdom.

KJV:

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

NIV:

8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.

John, that seems pretty clear to me. The Son is God.

[PaulSacramento]

Ah Rick...
Translations...wanna know how the JW's deal with Hebrews 1:8?
Here is THEIR translation:
But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.