Jesus is YHVH??

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#31

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:44 am

There is nothing in all of scripture that implies for salvation, that one must believe that Jesus is God. The Athanasian Creed however does state that one must believe that Jesus is God to be saved. The Creed is far from being scripture.

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#32

Post by RickD » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:53 am

There is nothing in all of scripture that implies for salvation, that one must believe that Jesus is God.
John, you have been shown numerous times that one must believe on the Jesus that has the power to save. The only Jesus that fits that bill, is the biblical Jesus who is God incarnate. Any other jesus, and the jesus you put YOUR faith in, is: 1) not God 2) cannot save 3) an idol
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#33

Post by B. W. » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:00 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:There is nothing in all of scripture that implies for salvation, that one must believe that Jesus is God. The Athanasian Creed however does state that one must believe that Jesus is God to be saved. The Creed is far from being scripture.
What does the bible say who Jesus is?

Look what the preincarnate Christ says in


Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.

Isa 45:15 Truly You are God, who hide Yourself, O God of Israel, the Savior!

Isa 45:21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.

Hosea 13:4 "Yet I am the LORD your God Ever since the land of Egypt, And you shall know no God but Me; For there is no savior besides Me.


Look what the writers say in the NT:

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,

Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,


Bible quotes NKJV
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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#34

Post by cheezerrox » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:37 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:There is nothing in all of scripture that implies for salvation, that one must believe that Jesus is God. The Athanasian Creed however does state that one must believe that Jesus is God to be saved. The Creed is far from being scripture.
John 8:23-24
"And He was saying to them, 'You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.'"

So it matters Who we believe He is..
"The prophet is a man who feels fiercely. G-d has thrust a burden upon his soul, and he is bowed and stunned at man's fierce greed. Frightful is the agony of man; no human voice can convey its full terror. Prophecy is the voice that G-d has lent to the silent agony, a voice to the plundered poor, to the profaned riches of the world. It is a form of living, a crossing point of G-d and man."
- Abraham Joshua Heschel

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#35

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:36 pm

I believe what the bible says "believe that I am he" (the Messiah) If salvation is only found by believing that Jesus is God, I certainly want to see that doctrine "FROM" the bible.

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#36

Post by B. W. » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:24 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:I believe what the bible says "believe that I am he" (the Messiah) If salvation is only found by believing that Jesus is God, I certainly want to see that doctrine "FROM" the bible.
Yes it does …

John 17:5, 6, "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. 6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word." NKJV

There are many verses from the bible that substantiate whom 'what Jesus' we are to believe in to be saved. But, however, your POV interprets these verses quite differently and has absolutely NO IDEA what the phrases Son of God or Son of Man, and sent, actually stand for, refer too, or to whom these words properly identifies.

In fact John 3:16 speaks of this as well but again your POV has no idea what begotten really means or what the word Son used in this verse refers too. See quote below from:
Jewish New Testament Commentary

John 3:16

This perhaps most famous and most quoted of verses in the New Testament epitomizes the truth of God that has come to Jews and Gentiles alike in Yeshua the Messiah. It teaches that
(1) God loves his creation, the world;
(2) to love is to give, to love much is to give much, and God loves the world so much that he gave what is most precious to him;
(3) Yeshua was fully aware in advance that he would die as God's own sacrifice;
(4) Yeshua knew that he was uniquely God's son;
(5) the destiny of man when he relies on himself and does not trust in Yeshua is total destruction (Greek apollumi, "be ruined, destroyed, lost")-not cessation of conscious existence, but the eternal suffering that is the inevitable consequence of sin; and
(6) the destiny of an individual who trusts in Yeshua is everlasting life-not only in the future but right now-not just survival beyond the grave, which everyone has (John 5:28-29; Rev 20:4-5, Rev 20:12-15), but positive life "in" Yeshua (John 1:4, John 11:25-26).

Trusting in Yeshua is not mere intellectual acknowledge-ment but adherence to, commitment to, trust in, faith in, reliance upon Yeshua as fully human, completely identified with us, and at the same time fully divine, completely identified with God.
The phrases used in the NT – Son of Man, Son of God refer to, God coming in human form to completely identified with us (Isaiah 7:14 – Isa 9:6 – Gen 3:15 –Isa 43:10 – Isa 45:18c) in order to reconcile us back to Himself. Son of God /son of Man – God and man reconciled.

Therefore - Which is proves agape love more:

Creating a man meat sacrifice – a mere creature – where God remains alone and aloof, far away to appease only a judicial notion of His?

Or…

God coming in the flesh, to die a horrible death that exposes what sin is and does, as well to justly judge and condemn sin, and rescue people from sin? God remains not far away, not aloof from us but rather God coming as one of us to know firsthand what we human beings go through in order to win us back freely - Eph 2:1-10.

Which of the two demonstrates more pure agape Love?

Next,


John 17:5, John 5:37, 42, 43, 44c, Matthew 16:16, 17, 18 speaks of these things but again, your POV trust a mere creature for Salvation that, however, can only come by God’s hand/arm alone (Isaiah 53:1, 2-12c)

...too believe in Jesus means to fully believe in who He is, what He did... that way your belief remains secure in Him and only in Him who can save to the uttermost... (Romans 10:9, 10, 11, 12, 13x - how can he be called lord if he is not the LORD - YHWH - Joel 2:32c.
Isa 48:11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another.

Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.

Isa 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.

Rev 1:17, 18 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,

Isa 43:10, 11 "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. 11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.

Isa 45:21-23 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. 22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath. (note John 1:1, 14c)

Php 2:10-11 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Isa 46:9, "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me…"

Hosea 13:4, "Yet I have been the LORD your God Since the land of Egypt; And you were not to know any god except Me, For there is no savior besides Me."

John 4:42, "and they were saying to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world."

Bible quotes from NASB and NKJV
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#37

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:40 pm

John 17:4 is needed to support John 17:5. Jesus accomplished what his God and Father had commissioned him. Then Jesus asks for the reward. Treasures are stored up in heaven, and "come down" from heaven. There is a big difference between being foreordained or predestined and actually preexisting. We can make a thread for a preexistence discussion. :)

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#38

Post by Byblos » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:37 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:John 17:4 is needed to support John 17:5. Jesus accomplished what his God and Father had commissioned him. Then Jesus asks for the reward. Treasures are stored up in heaven, and "come down" from heaven. There is a big difference between being foreordained or predestined and actually preexisting. We can make a thread for a preexistence discussion. :)
I asked a question a few pages back that I'm not sure you answered. Why was Jesus effective in bringing about salvation when countless other prophets before him like Moses didn't (other than being God's son, which for all intents and purposes we all are)?
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#39

Post by B. W. » Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:20 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:John 17:4 is needed to support John 17:5. Jesus accomplished what his God and Father had commissioned him. Then Jesus asks for the reward. Treasures are stored up in heaven, and "come down" from heaven. There is a big difference between being foreordained or predestined and actually preexisting. We can make a thread for a preexistence discussion. :)
John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was..." NKJV

How could Jesus have the glory he shared before the world was if as only a created being he did not exist before the world was?

As I stated before and now with a bit more edited in:

The phrases used in the NT – Son of Man, Son of God refer to, God coming in human form to completely identify with us (Isaiah 7:14 – Isa 9:6 – Gen 3:15 – Isa 43:10 – Isa 45:18c) in order to reconcile us back to Himself. Son of God /Son of Man terms = God and man reconciled. That explains John 17:3, 4, 5c, John 3:13. John 6:38, 46x, Proverbs 30:4, 5, 6, John 1:1, 14, 18c, John 8:55, 56, 57, 58, 59x

Therefore - Which would prove God's agape love True:

Creating a man meat sacrifice – a mere creature – where God remains alone and aloof, far away to appease only a judicial notion of His?

Or…

God coming in the flesh, to die a horrible death that exposes what sin is and does, as well to justly judge and condemn sin, and rescue people from sin? God remains not far away, not aloof from us but rather God coming as one of us to know firsthand what we human beings go through in order to win us back freely - Eph 2:1-10.

Which of the two demonstrates God's pure agape Love?

Lastly, look at this verse and note what Vincent’s’ Word Studies states about it…

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
Vincent’s’ Word Studies

John 8:42

I proceeded forth - from God (εκ του Θεου εξηλθον)

Rev., came forth. The phrase occurs only here and in Joh_16:28. Εξελθειν is found in John 13:3; John 16:30, and emphasizes the idea of separation; a going from God to whom He was to return (and goeth unto God). Εξελθειν παρά (John 16:27; John 17:8), is going from beside, implying personal fellowship with God. Εξελθειν εκ, here, emphasizes the idea of essential, community of being: “I came forth out of.”
Jesus came forth from the Tri-part nature of the Godhead – came forth from the Tri-part nature of HaElohim – just as the OT teaches about God’s nature of being God – the self existing One. Jesus is the known as the second person of the Divine Trinity - Because of this, John 1:1, 14 makes sense as does Heb 1:3
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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#40

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:06 pm

An image of a thing is not the thing itself. We can look in a mirror and know for certain that our reflection is not "another" me with it's own will.

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#41

Post by Byblos » Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:45 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:An image of a thing is not the thing itself. We can look in a mirror and know for certain that our reflection is not "another" me with it's own will.
I'm sorry but is this in response to someone? Because I can't tell. Please quote the person you are responding to with proper reference.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#42

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:36 am

I don't know how to use the quote thing....

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#43

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:39 am

I love the verse Numbers 23:19

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#44

Post by B. W. » Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:48 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:I love the verse Numbers 23:19
Regarding Numbers 23:19 – context, context, context is all about lying and God did not lie when he said these things: Genesis 3:15, John 17:5, Titus 2:13, Isa 45:21-23, Php 2:10-11. Your quote is out of context and for someone with a PhD to do this speaks volumes about the type of learning that came with attaining the PhD.

Isa 9:6 clearly states God will come in the flesh and save: "For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father (Author of Eternity), Prince of Peace."

Isa 7:14, "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel (God with us)." (Mat 1:23c)

Isa 46:9. "Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me..."

Isa 43:10, 11, "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. 11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior."


Which is proves God's own agape love more:

Creating a man meat sacrifice – a mere creature – where God remains alone and aloof, far away to appease only a judicial notion of His? So that this being would usurp the worship due only to God himself?

Or…

God coming in the flesh, to die a horrible death that exposes what sin is and does, as well to justly judge and condemn sin, and rescue people from sin? God remains not far away, not aloof from us but rather God coming as one of us to know firsthand what we human beings go through in order to win us back freely - Eph 2:1-10.

Which of the two demonstrates God's pure agape Love the most?

Bible quotes from NKJV and NASB
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#45

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:06 pm

First off, I do not have a PhD ...yet. I am in college working for that very degree. The next thing is I do not subscribe to the fact that God can die because he alone has immortality. Jesus is the son of God. Jesus fully died accomplishing which the first Adam could not. Now as Jesus being a "mere man" that to is ludicrous. Jesus is the only human (who was mortal) that did not have a human father. God did not take a three day break from being God. I mean if the trinity is true then for three days the trinity ceased to exist. Numbers 23:19 is talking about God not changing his mind. Context, context, context.
Last edited by 1stjohn0666 on Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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