Answers for B.W.

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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1stjohn0666
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Answers for B.W.

#1

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:16 pm

Answers for B.W.

What do the Christadelphians Teach?
Quote From: http://carm.org/christadelphianism

by Matt Slick
Though they acknowledge many truths found in the Bible, they deny many others.
1. They believe the Bible is the infallible and inerrant word of God. (The Christadelphians: What They Believe and Preach, p. 82) I believe that in the sense of doctrine.
2. They teach there is only one God. (Isaiah 43-45) YES
3. They teach that Jesus had a sin nature (What They Believe, p. 74) NO
4. They teach that Jesus needed to save himself, before he could save us. (Christadelphian Answers, p. 24) NO
5. They teach that Jesus will return and set up his kingdom on earth. (What They Believe , p. 268) YES
6. They believe that there has been an apostasy and that Christianity is a false religious system. (A tract titled “Christendom Astray Since the Apostolic Age, Detroit Christadelphian Book Supply) NO
7. They believe annihilation of the wicked. (What They Believe, p. 187). YES
8. They believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. (What They Believe , p. 71,72, 207-210) NO
9. They believe that it is possible to lose one’s salvation. (What They Believe , p. 212) NO
10. They deny the doctrine of the Trinity. (What They Believe, p. 84-87) YES
11. They deny that Jesus is God in flesh. (Answers, p. 22) YES
12. They deny that Jesus existed prior to his incarnation. (What They Believe , p. 85,86) YES
13. They deny the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit. (What They Believe , p. 115) NO
14. They deny the substitutionary atonement of Christ. (Answers, p. 25; What They Believe, p. 71) WHICH VERSION OF substitutionary atonement
15. They deny salvation by grace through faith alone. (What they Believe, p. 204) NO
16. They deny immortality of the soul. (What They Believe , p. 17). YES
17. They deny that a person exists after death. (What They Believe, p. 17) YES
18. They deny the existence of hell and eternal punishment. (What They Believe, p. 188-189) NO
19. They deny the existence of the fallen angel Lucifer as the devil. (Answers, p. 100) NO
As you can see, the Christadelphians deny some essential doctrines of Christianity; namely, the deity of Jesus and salvation by grace.
Like so many other cult groups that claim to be the restored truth, they have their own interpretations of the Bible that deviate greatly from orthodox Christianity.
AS YOU CAN PLAINLY SEE I AM NOT "ONE OF THOSE" :lol:

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#2

Post by B. W. » Sun Jul 22, 2012 10:26 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:Answers for B.W.
AS YOU CAN PLAINLY SEE I AM NOT "ONE OF THOSE" :lol:
Let's see what you agree with so far in from you prior postings...it is evident that you believe and agree with the following numbers...from the article...

What do the Christadelphians Teach?
Quote From: http://carm.org/christadelphianism

by Matt Slick
Though they acknowledge many truths found in the Bible, they deny many others.

2. They teach there is only one God. (Isaiah 43-45)

6. They believe that there has been an apostasy and that Christianity is a false religious system. (A tract titled “Christendom Astray Since the Apostolic Age, Detroit Christadelphian Book Supply)

7. They believe annihilation of the wicked. (What They Believe, p. 187).

10. They deny the doctrine of the Trinity. (What They Believe, p. 84-87)

11. They deny that Jesus is God in flesh. (Answers, p. 22)

12. They deny that Jesus existed prior to his incarnation. (What They Believe , p. 85,86)

13. They deny the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit. (What They Believe , p. 115)

16. They deny immortality of the soul. (What They Believe , p. 17

17. They deny that a person exists after death. (What They Believe, p. 17

18. They deny the existence of hell and eternal punishment. (What They Believe, p. 188-189)

John666 should we add to the list as well - do you hold these views? Do you deny these???

14. They deny the substitutionary atonement of Christ. (Answers, p. 25; What They Believe, p. 71) WHICH VERSION OF substitutionary atonement

15. They deny salvation by grace through faith alone. (What they Believe, p. 204)
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#3

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:01 am

2. They teach there is only one God. (Isaiah 43-45) John 17:3 "only true God"

6. They believe that there has been an apostasy and that Christianity is a false religious system. (A tract titled “Christendom Astray Since the Apostolic Age, Detroit Christadelphian Book Supply) NO

7. They believe annihilation of the wicked. (What They Believe, p. 187). YES

10. They deny the doctrine of the Trinity. (What They Believe, p. 84-87) WHERE IS THAT IN THE BIBLE? YES

11. They deny that Jesus is God in flesh. (Answers, p. 22) JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD. NOT GOD, JESUS HAS A GOD OR DID YOU MISS THAT PART

12. They deny that Jesus existed prior to his incarnation. (What They Believe , p. 85,86) INCARNATION WHERE IS THAT IN THE BIBLE? YES

13. They deny the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit. (What They Believe , p. 115) NO

16. They deny immortality of the soul. (What They Believe , p. 17 YES, PLATO TAUGHT THAT THING "INTO" CHRISTIANITY CHECK SOME EARLY CHURCH FATHERS

17. They deny that a person exists after death. (What They Believe, p. 17 NOT IMMEDIATELY, BUT AFTER THE RESURRECTION

18. They deny the existence of hell and eternal punishment. (What They Believe, p. 188-189) NO

John666 should we add to the list as well - do you hold these views? Do you deny these???

14. They deny the substitutionary atonement of Christ. (Answers, p. 25; What They Believe, p. 71) WHICH VERSION OF substitutionary atonement?

15. They deny salvation by grace through faith alone. (What they Believe, p. 204) NO

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#4

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:25 am

Through frustration I was wrong in describing "Nowhere in the bible is the Spirit a conscious entity apart from the body" it is the soul that is not a conscious entity apart from the body. If you have questions please ask them one at a time as responses are easier to reply to. I don't need to post a novel of rebuttals.

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#5

Post by RickD » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:02 am

Let's start with #12
12. They deny that Jesus existed prior to his incarnation. (What They Believe , p. 85,86) INCARNATION WHERE IS THAT IN THE BIBLE? YES
It's in John 1:14 here:

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Word became flesh, means incarnation.

in·car·na·tion/ËŒinkärˈnāSHən/

(in Christian theology) The embodiment of God the Son in human flesh as Jesus Christ.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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1stjohn0666
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#6

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:51 pm

To support John 1:14 we need to find out what "the word" is. As Genesis puts it "And God spoke" thus "the word" Now John 1:1 "in the beginning was the word... Deut 18:18 "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him." ESV. Note "And I (the Father) will put my words in his (Jesus) mouth" John 1:14 in my understanding is that "word" is not a person. If we go back to the OT of all the prophecies "davar" which is the Hebrew language or "word" in English never was described as a person. "The word became flesh" goes like this (for me), God the Father put his words in the mouth of Jesus, thus becoming flesh. Ezekiel 2:2 is quite compelling, he heard the Holy Spirit and wrote what he heard. Ezekiel became "the word" of the Holy Spirit. Does that make sense?

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#7

Post by RickD » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:30 am

Does that make sense?
No, 1john. It makes no sense. Word with a capital W, means Jesus Christ. You posted John 1:1, and John 1:14, erroneously with a small w. Here's just one explanation from Strong's Concordance:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 3056&t=KJV
From the link:
3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Answers for B.W.

#8

Post by wazatron » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:46 am

I can see a problem here.... :)
Christians disagreeing? This is unheard of. So who is right?

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#9

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:49 am

To deny the incarnation of Jesus is to deny the Gospel of John.
All of Chapter 1 of the GOJ is a comment on the divinity of Jesus and His Incarnation.

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#10

Post by RickD » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:02 am

wazatron wrote:I can see a problem here.... :)
Christians disagreeing? This is unheard of. So who is right?
Wazatron, I am right, of course! Because, as a moderator god, I have the power to zap anyone who disagrees with me, into virtual non-existence. So, even if I'm wrong, I have the power to make myself right. :twisted: :pound:
But seriously, if you stick around here long enough, you'll see Christians disagreeing quite often. We're not robots, you know. y#-o
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#11

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:38 am

I can say the word "word" but that does not mean that when I spoke it means my word is a person. To me that makes no sense at all. When God spoke in Genesis things were created. In John 1:1 I see the parallel. When getting to 1:14 Gods (the Father) "words" were in the mouth of Jesus "and dwelt among us" I do not capitalize the "word" to denote a person. Of all of the OT does the word "davar" mean a person? NO

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#12

Post by RickD » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:49 am

1stjohn, this link explains "Logos":
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Jesus_Christ
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#13

Post by RickD » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:56 am

1stjohn, this, from the book of John, speaks clearly of the deity of Christ:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God — 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
. John 1:1-18
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#14

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:05 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:I can say the word "word" but that does not mean that when I spoke it means my word is a person. To me that makes no sense at all. When God spoke in Genesis things were created. In John 1:1 I see the parallel. When getting to 1:14 Gods (the Father) "words" were in the mouth of Jesus "and dwelt among us" I do not capitalize the "word" to denote a person. Of all of the OT does the word "davar" mean a person? NO
It is quite clear in the context of John's writing that the "word" is an individual, a person.
You really can't deny that.
no where more than here:
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

This speaks clearly of the incarnation ( became flesh) of the word of God who is the one and only Son of The father.

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#15

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:34 pm

I still see Deut 18:18 harmonizing John 1:14. The Father put his words in his sons mouth "to be made known" to us. Jesus only spoke the words of his Father, who put them very "words" there. I have never ran across the "incarnation" in the bible.

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