Rapture timing?

Discussions on Christian eschatology including different views pertaining to Jesus' second coming, rapture and tribulation, the millennium, and so forth.
Zionist
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Rapture timing?

#1

Post by Zionist » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:26 am

Now i know this is a touchy subject for most believers out there but i always have felt that it is important to talk about and quite frankly i find it sad that this subject has pretty much gotten to the point with believers where it is agree to disagree. what does God's word say? why is it important to know the timing of this event? How does it affect us to know the timing of this event? how did we come to the belief that we hold to now concerning this topic and why? thanks everyone in advance for their answers :)
Our rightousness is of filthy rags and in the eyes of God all have gone astray and nobody is justified under the Law. We are saved by the Grace of God through our faith in Him and in Him who he has sent Jesus Christ alone. There is no other way.

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Re: Rapture timing?

#2

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:33 am

Lets hear what the Son of God has to say on the matter:
ACTS 1:6-8
6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

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Re: Rapture timing?

#3

Post by narnia4 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:23 am

Personally I just don't know. Being a sci-fi/futuristic literature fan anyway I always enjoyed Revelation (maybe not always in the way you're supposed to, frankly), but I don't know what the solution is. It always was a little puzzling to me that huge division occurred over pre-, mid-, and post-trib positions. I wonder understand if it were pre-mil vs. preterist or something, but for some people to have huge splits and lost friendships and lost churches over something like that when we're explicitly told that its not for us to know, it strikes me as silly.
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Re: Rapture timing?

#4

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:33 am

Pretty much.
We have Christ in his incarnate form telling Us that HE doesn't now.
We have Christ in his resurrected form telling us that we are NOT suppose to know.
You'd think that would be enough eh?

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Re: Rapture timing?

#5

Post by Zionist » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:12 am

i never said to predict when it was going to happen. what im trying to say is if you believe in the rapture when do you think it'll be meaning pre, mid or post trib/pre wrath ect...i also will disagree with the fact that you guys say it is not important because Christ doesn't know when. sure he may not know the exact timing as far as the date is concerned but he did take the time to explain in great detail the order of events that would occur and told us to know by season. the way you guys responded is the exact thing i was describing in my original post. people feel it's a taboo topic but is it really? did God really want us to be unaware of this event? does the bible paint a clear picture that we can all see and understand? i honestly think so.
Our rightousness is of filthy rags and in the eyes of God all have gone astray and nobody is justified under the Law. We are saved by the Grace of God through our faith in Him and in Him who he has sent Jesus Christ alone. There is no other way.

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Re: Rapture timing?

#6

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:45 am

Zionist wrote:i never said to predict when it was going to happen. what im trying to say is if you believe in the rapture when do you think it'll be meaning pre, mid or post trib/pre wrath ect...i also will disagree with the fact that you guys say it is not important because Christ doesn't know when. sure he may not know the exact timing as far as the date is concerned but he did take the time to explain in great detail the order of events that would occur and told us to know by season. the way you guys responded is the exact thing i was describing in my original post. people feel it's a taboo topic but is it really? did God really want us to be unaware of this event? does the bible paint a clear picture that we can all see and understand? i honestly think so.
Not really a taboo topic.
It's just that we are warned NOT to focus on the TIMING of it.
And we see so many doing just that.
Look at the "great disappointment" of the 19th century of the Adventist movement and all the denominations that come from it.
Look at the JW's and their ( many failed)attempts to predict the parousia.
Jesus warned us that there would be many saying "here it is" and "here is the Christ", etc.
It's very clear that we are to keep watchful because IT WILL happen, but that we are NOT to focus on WHEN.

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Re: Rapture timing?

#7

Post by Ivellious » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:40 am

Let me put it this way: It seems clear to me that the Bible is absolutely NOT clear on when Revelations will come to fruition, based solely on the fact that Christians have thought it was "close" ever since Revelations was written. Most things in the Bible have been at least somewhat consistent on how they have been interpreted throughout history, but Revelations is almost always interpreted as if it is imminent.

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Re: Rapture timing?

#8

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:49 am

Ivellious wrote:Let me put it this way: It seems clear to me that the Bible is absolutely NOT clear on when Revelations will come to fruition, based solely on the fact that Christians have thought it was "close" ever since Revelations was written. Most things in the Bible have been at least somewhat consistent on how they have been interpreted throughout history, but Revelations is almost always interpreted as if it is imminent.
Indeed, of course imminent for one person is eventually for another, LOL !
Of course the issue is that the desire for the end to come tends to blind us to the fact that WHEN was never stated, just that it will.
Apocolyptic writings tended to follow a certain pattern because there was more to them than just revelation, they were also to teach and to strengthen faith.
There is a concrete pattern with apocolyptic writings ( Revelation, Daniel, Isaiah, Enoch, etc) and that is, much like Jesus' view on the kingdom of God- Here and not yet here.
We are to inaugurate that the Kingdom is here (at hand) but not yet here (to come), a work in progress if you will.
So, in some ways, the end is imminent and here already and still to come at the patience of God ( for our sakes).

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Re: Rapture timing?

#9

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:04 pm

Ivellious wrote:Revelations is almost always interpreted as if it is imminent.
PaulSacramento wrote:Indeed, of course imminent for one person is eventually for another, LOL !
Ahem... imminent does not mean soon. In the context of the Bible, imminent means that the conditions for its occurance have been fulfilled. An analogy may be helpful here: If I've been cheating on my wife all throughout our marriage and am an inveterate womanizer, my divorce is imminent. My wife may file for divorce tomorrow, next year or in twenty years; in all of these cases, my divorce is imminent.

Get it?

FL
Last edited by Furstentum Liechtenstein on Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rapture timing?

#10

Post by RickD » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:58 pm

FL, do Canadians spell imminent differently? Because after your last post, my grammar police siren was going berserk. :mrgreen:
Immanent, imminent, eminent
Imminent means (1) very near or (2) impending. Immanent means (1) existing within or (2) inherent. The adjectives are easily confused, for obvious reasons. Immanent in particular is almost never used correctly because it’s so rarely useful. A third word, the near-homophone eminent, is also in the mix.  
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Re: Rapture timing?

#11

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:51 pm

RickD wrote:FL, do Canadians spell imminent differently? Because after your last post, my grammar police siren was going berserk.
Ooops! You're right! I'll edit my divorce-analogy post accordingly. FlawedIntellect must be foaming at the mouth over this.

FL
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Re: Rapture timing?

#12

Post by Zionist » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:19 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Zionist wrote:i never said to predict when it was going to happen. what im trying to say is if you believe in the rapture when do you think it'll be meaning pre, mid or post trib/pre wrath ect...i also will disagree with the fact that you guys say it is not important because Christ doesn't know when. sure he may not know the exact timing as far as the date is concerned but he did take the time to explain in great detail the order of events that would occur and told us to know by season. the way you guys responded is the exact thing i was describing in my original post. people feel it's a taboo topic but is it really? did God really want us to be unaware of this event? does the bible paint a clear picture that we can all see and understand? i honestly think so.
Not really a taboo topic.
It's just that we are warned NOT to focus on the TIMING of it.
And we see so many doing just that.
Look at the "great disappointment" of the 19th century of the Adventist movement and all the denominations that come from it.
Look at the JW's and their ( many failed)attempts to predict the parousia.
Jesus warned us that there would be many saying "here it is" and "here is the Christ", etc.
It's very clear that we are to keep watchful because IT WILL happen, but that we are NOT to focus on WHEN.
@paul
AGAIN please read and know THAT i never said to predict when it'll happen as far as date is concerned. that is wrong to do just as you pointed out how people have done in the past. i am talking on the premise that by believing in the rapture what position do you take MEANING do you believe in pre trib, mid trib, post trib/pre wrath, ect, ect...? most of the time i enjoy reading your posts and agree with things you say paul so please could you answer my questions instead of giving answers that do not pertain to what i am talking about. i will say this again when do you think the rapture will be MEANING pre trib, mid trib, post trib ect..? why is it important to know the timing of this event timing MEANING pre trib, mid trib, post trib, ect, ect..? How does it affect us to know the timing of this event? how did we come to the belief that we hold to now concerning this topic and why?

@Ivellious
revelations is actually quite clear on what is to transpire during the time leading to Christ's return to the earth and events that occur after. what people do is they try to predict when all these things will occur which only God knows but he did give us warning as to what signs we can be on the lookout that helps us to understand when we are getting closer. paul gave you a pretty good answer summing up a lot in a little now if only he'll properly answer what i am asking.
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Re: Rapture timing?

#13

Post by Ivellious » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:26 pm

Oh I know that it gives specifics, but those specifics have been matched up to various points in time repeatedly. As in, the signs have been "seen" over and over and over again by believers, only to actually not really be the signs of the end times. Every time things happen that even kind of sound like the signs in revelations, people jump on the bandwagon and proclaim that those are in fact the signs...but to this point every time they have been wrong.

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Re: Rapture timing?

#14

Post by Danieltwotwenty » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:30 pm

Ivellious wrote:Oh I know that it gives specifics, but those specifics have been matched up to various points in time repeatedly. As in, the signs have been "seen" over and over and over again by believers, only to actually not really be the signs of the end times. Every time things happen that even kind of sound like the signs in revelations, people jump on the bandwagon and proclaim that those are in fact the signs...but to this point every time they have been wrong.

Since when did they rebuild the temple on the mount?
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.

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Re: Rapture timing?

#15

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Jul 20, 2012 6:54 am

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Ivellious wrote:Revelations is almost always interpreted as if it is imminent.
PaulSacramento wrote:Indeed, of course imminent for one person is eventually for another, LOL !
Ahem... imminent does not mean soon. In the context of the Bible, imminent means that the conditions for its occurance have been fulfilled. An analogy may be helpful here: If I've been cheating on my wife all throughout our marriage and am an inveterate womanizer, my divorce is imminent. My wife may file for divorce tomorrow, next year or in twenty years; in all of these cases, my divorce is imminent.

Get it?

FL
Isn't that what I said ?

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