New Shroud of Turin discovery only a few days ago!

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BryanH
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Re: New Shroud of Turin discovery only a few days ago!

Post by BryanH »

There were multiple, unique events that took place during Jesus' resurrection, the least of which was leaving markings on a piece of burial cloth
Unfortunately those events are mentioned only in the Bible and there is no other historical source for that.

When I say this it doesn't mean that Jesus wasn't real. He was a real very intelligent person and there is proof of that . His death is real and there is historical proof for that. But from this to resurrection and miracles there is a still long way to walk. Maybe one day we will have more clear evidence. :)
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Re: New Shroud of Turin discovery only a few days ago!

Post by Stu »

BryanH wrote:Unfortunately those events are mentioned only in the Bible and there is no other historical source for that.

When I say this it doesn't mean that Jesus wasn't real. He was a real very intelligent person and there is proof of that . His death is real and there is historical proof for that. But from this to resurrection and miracles there is a still long way to walk. Maybe one day we will have more clear evidence. :)
Of course.

I was simply responding to your assumption that: "If our technology resembles God's modus operandi, soon enough we will be able to resurrect people."

But as to your other point; remember, the Bible as a historical document has proven to be infallible in terms of it's accuracy.
That being said, if you accept that Jesus lived as a man, then you more than likely accept there were also 12 men who followed Jesus around as he walked, talked and performed his miracles?

So you have 12 men following Jesus around, documenting his movements through towns and the people that followed him. Given the accuracy of the rest of the Bible, and acceptance that Jesus, as a man, existed, it certainly offers a compellingly accurate account of human history up to around 3 000 years ago.

So it seems that final step of accepting Jesus as the Son of God is up to the individual, just as it would be in 2000 years time accepting that Sir Edmund Hillary & Norgay in fact were the first to summit Everest, on nothing but the word of himself and Tenzing Norgay.
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Re: New Shroud of Turin discovery only a few days ago!

Post by BryanH »

the Bible as a historical document has proven to be infallible in terms of it's accuracy.
The bible is one of the best literature creations of all time and it has a high number of metaphors used.
So you might not want to use the words "infallible" and "accurate". There is no person yet to have understood all the metaphors of the bible. So as I said in our previous debate: the bible is not the best source from where to try and squeeze something out and promote as a general truth. There may have been 12 people following Jesus and he might have done miracles, but the history is somehow foggy on that. I prefer facts rather than bible stories. As I have said to you in the story with emperor Constantine, the bible was edited and written by some people who probably had personal interests and might have distorted some stories just to make it more interesting and supernatural than it actually is. Keep that in mind.
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Re: New Shroud of Turin discovery only a few days ago!

Post by Kurieuo »

Have you even considered treating the books that comprise what we call the Bible as historical texts in their own right. Are you familiar with any form of historical criticism, or are you just giving your opinion on what you think is metaphor, storeys without justification?
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Re: New Shroud of Turin discovery only a few days ago!

Post by Stu »

BryanH wrote:The bible is one of the best literature creations of all time and it has a high number of metaphors used.
Well hang on, as Kurieuo alluded to, when reading the Bible it is quite obvious when something is referred to in a metaphorical context and when it's one of factual reference.
The Bible is not a one-dimensional text.
It details many things ranging from morals, codes of conduct and straight ol run-of-the-mill historical dates, events and lineages. It is that that I refer to; not these metaphors that your refer to.
So you might not want to use the words "infallible" and "accurate". There is no person yet to have understood all the metaphors of the bible. So as I said in our previous debate: the bible is not the best source from where to try and squeeze something out and promote as a general truth. There may have been 12 people following Jesus and he might have done miracles, but the history is somehow foggy on that. I prefer facts rather than bible stories.
Again, you're dismissing the Bible in totality, dismissing the historical accuracy along with everything else.
What other historical texts are we to dismiss then?
All I'm saying is, do not set double standards, or much of human history must then be relegated to nothing more than "stories".

Do you not agree that as a historical document (miracles aside) the Bible has proven to be one of the best documentations of human history?
As I have said to you in the story with emperor Constantine, the bible was edited and written by some people who probably had personal interests and might have distorted some stories just to make it more interesting and supernatural than it actually is. Keep that in mind.
Are you suggesting that the individual books of the disciples have been altered after they wrote them?

Anyway I'm actually spending too much time on this stuff, I've got work to do :)
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Re: New Shroud of Turin discovery only a few days ago!

Post by BryanH »

Do you not agree that as a historical document (miracles aside) the Bible has proven to be one of the best documentations of human history?
Is that supposed to be a joke? Human history? What are you talking about? Human history goes back to at least 100,000 years ago, the proof for this being archeological discoveries.
http://www.livescience.com/16538-oldest ... tudio.html

And let's not forget "Lucy" who is 3.2 million years old. Of course she is not an advanced specimen as humans are today, but just saying.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... midus.html

The texts of the bible aren't that old even if you stretch them 10 times.
Are you suggesting that the individual books of the disciples have been altered after they wrote them?
Yes of course:)) Look at how the media is manipulated today. At the times the bible was written it was much easier to control what is printed and what reaches the public. So if media is manipulated today, do you think that people back then had a problem with doing this?
Have you even considered treating the books that comprise what we call the Bible as historical texts in their own right. Are you familiar with any form of historical criticism, or are you just giving your opinion on what you think is metaphor, storeys without justification?
I'm just saying the the final version of the Bible we have today was edited and written by people who had their own agenda and might have distorted history willingly or not, but probably willingly. That's all. I do not question the fact that SOME facts in the Bible are part of history and actually happened.
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Re: New Shroud of Turin discovery only a few days ago!

Post by jlay »

It was fortunate that the stone bowl was inscribed on the bottom, "made in 98,000 B.C."

Do you have any testable, observable proof that Lucy was human?
Lucy was certainly not advanced. Well, no more advanced than a Bonobo.
Yes of course:)) Look at how the media is manipulated today. At the times the bible was written it was much easier to control what is printed and what reaches the public. So if media is manipulated today, do you think that people back then had a problem with doing this?
I presume you are familiar with textual analysis and how ancient literature is examined?
I'm just saying the the final version of the Bible we have today was edited and written by people who had their own agenda and might have distorted history willingly or not, but probably willingly. That's all. I do not question the fact that SOME facts in the Bible are part of history and actually happened.
Chronological snobbery. This is just prejuducial bias ignoring the facts of how we examine reliablity for ancient texts.

It is funny that you criticize modern media, yet then site two media sources. I guess everyone has their 'faith' so to speak. National Geo is the infallible word now. Have you ever examined or handled any raw data as it relates to these things, or are you placing your faith in what is written in as you say, "maniplated" media?
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

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Re: New Shroud of Turin discovery only a few days ago!

Post by BryanH »

Chronological snobbery. This is just prejuducial bias ignoring the facts of how we examine reliablity for ancient texts.
You haven't examined anything or have you? You just believe in what others already examined... So how does that make you different from me?
Did you analyze the original scriptures? Do you even know the language of those scripts? If I came tomorrow to your door and I would give you the old scriptures would you know how to read them? You just believe in what others tell you to believe in. Hope I made things clear.

And again jlay you just talk and analyze only the things you like. I said that 100,000 years ago we had people on this planet who had enough intelligence and skill to draw, be creative. So yes, the bible is just a small part of our history, nothing more.
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Re: New Shroud of Turin discovery only a few days ago!

Post by jlay »

You haven't examined anything or have you? You just believe in what others already examined... So how does that make you different from me?
Essentially nothing. Again, you missed my point entirely. This is about consistency within your own argument.
I think the impression many have, (And I sense this from you) is that because the Bible is old, it is altered and unreliable. These are common objections. Objections that have been answered since long before either of us were born. As a believer, I want to know that my faith isn't blind. I would like to know if the text, which I believe to be inspired by God, is reliable. When I began to investigate this for myself I was blown away at just how much this is really looked in to. The New Testament alone is considered to be 99.5% textually pure. The .5% is pretty much left to copying errors, such as spelling, repeating a word, omitting a letter or word. However, because of the vast number of available copies, (6,000 in Greek and 21,000 in other languages) these errors were easily spotted. So amongst 27,000 documents in different languages, on different countries and continents, there was a .5% textual variance. It's important to note that of these variances, none effect the doctrinal truth or the words and deeds recorded. This is just one of many techniques used.

If you recall, a number of years back, the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered. Many of these were dated to before Christ, and they confirmed that the modern translations we have match the oldest documents. It was a huge discovery that pretty much slammed the door on many objections.

I've been blessed to have friends who read both ancient Greek and Hebrew. Also, many of the ancient texts are actually available to view on-line in photo. http://www.biblepicturegallery.com/pict ... cripts.htm I also have a program that allows me to translate ancient Greek. Fortunately I have an English translation. Also, I know that the English translation I use is faithful to the earliest text. How? Because I've actually taken the time to investigate the translation of the Bible into English. The amazing thing about the Bible I use is it is translated from the oldest manuscripts. Groups such as the Wycliffe bible translation group translate from the earliest manuscripts. http://www.wycliffe.org/ A transliteration is translated from a modern language into a more common dialect. The NLT is an example. So, the KJV, NASV and others are translated from the original language into English.

My point is that you are making accusations about the text, yet not holding yourself or your sources to the same standard. Your post would indicate too me that you are not familiar with the methods used to determine the historical realiabitlity of ancient literature. If you are interested, here is a link that deals with many of the common objections. http://carm.org/bible All I would ask is that before you jump on a Christian discussion forum and start throwing out objections that you actually take the time to research for yourself. What happens a lot is that pro-atheist groups will put out any kind of information trying to discredit the reliability of the Bible. They know that the average joe is NOT going to investigate to see if their claims have real merit. I would hold those groups to the same standard. As you can imagine, we get this a lot. And more times than not, it is someone regurgitating arguments that they've picked up from some anti-Christian source.

The Bible is verified through some of the most exhaustive literary standards known to man. Josh McDowell has exhaustive research on the reliability of the biblical text. If you really want to sink your teeth into this, His book, "Evidence that demands a verdict," is one of the best. It is not easy reading, and is a text book format with a lot of academic speak. He was an atheist who set out to do research to disprove the Bible as superstitious myth.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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Re: New Shroud of Turin discovery only a few days ago!

Post by Kurieuo »

BryanH wrote:
Chronological snobbery. This is just prejuducial bias ignoring the facts of how we examine reliablity for ancient texts.
You haven't examined anything or have you? You just believe in what others already examined... So how does that make you different from me?
Ad hominems are kind of grasping at the last straw. I wonder how you know what jlay has/has not examined, but are you here admitting you haven't examined anything?
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Re: New Shroud of Turin discovery only a few days ago!

Post by Murray »

Soo... how bout that shroud :ebiggrin:
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Re: New Shroud of Turin discovery only a few days ago!

Post by BryanH »

The New Testament alone is considered to be 99.5% textually pure. The .5% is pretty much left to copying errors, such as spelling, repeating a word, omitting a letter or word. However, because of the vast number of available copies, (6,000 in Greek and 21,000 in other languages) these errors were easily spotted
Do you you happen to have a link to a website where I can have access to this study which analyzed variance? I will do research myself, but I'm just asking if you can speed things up for me. Analyzing variance between non-homogeneous groups is a very tricky job.
The Bible is verified through some of the most exhaustive literary standards known to man. Josh McDowell has exhaustive research on the reliability of the biblical text. If you really want to sink your teeth into this, His book, "Evidence that demands a verdict," is one of the best. It is not easy reading, and is a text book format with a lot of academic speak. He was an atheist who set out to do research to disprove the Bible as superstitious myth.
Thank you jlay for a very nice post. I apologize if I was unclear on some of my statements, but as I said, we are debating and I'm learning while doing that. Let's say that I agree with you since you have provided me with statistical proof that the Bible was translated correctly and it has no important errors. As we have already discussed on the other topic, neither you and I can prove that God actually exists, that he is moral or immoral. We simply can't prove that in an acceptable way with real facts. So nobody can actually prove that the Bible is God's word. As some literature specialists have said, the Bible is quite a masterpiece in terms of literature. Lots of people that are Christian and not only claim that the Bible is God's word based on mere assumptions. You might even say that the Bible presents history. I don't understand: does the Bible relate to God's words or history? So where does that leave the Bible? Can it be considered a trustworthy source for moral values? Maybe...
Soo... how bout that shroud
Somebody said here that the Bible does describe a light coming from Jesus when resurrected. I'm just saying that the Bible in terms of historical sources, it is not accurate.
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Re: New Shroud of Turin discovery only a few days ago!

Post by jlay »

Bryan,

As I mentioned before, proving and convincing are two different things. There is a lot of proof. You could go into a variety of arguments. Some of them natural/evidential, and some presuppositional.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze0shXucArA
here is a link to a video by Josh McDowell. The video is very layman in its presentation. McDowell's book is very academic with exhaustive research and reference. It's really just a matter of how deep you want to go.

McDowell actually set out to disprove the Bible. Obviously because of copyright laws, I can't just provide links to protected material. But here is an excerpt that is used with permission. McDowells work is tedious and in his book, The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict, he walks through this in exhausting detail. Obviously the literary and historical areas are covered, but then too are the resurrection, and the prophetic claims.
http://www.pinpointevangelism.com/Bible_Manuscripts.pdf
I'm just saying that the Bible in terms of historical sources, it is not accurate.
And I would have to ask your source for this. The Bible, historically and archeologically is unmatched. The Bible deals with real people in real places.
It is really beyond question that the Bible is historically reliable. But does that make its claims true? No, the historical reliability is just one step. It allows us to go on to the next. If you won't conceed to the historical reliability, then there is no point moving beyond.

I'll give you a brief example. For years historians pointed out that the Bible was innacurate because there was never any evidence for the existance of the Hittite nation. Then around 1900 archeological discoveries were made that verified a Hittite nation. Prior, the ONLY source for the existance of the Hittites was the Old Testament.
I don't understand: does the Bible relate to God's words or history
Yes. Why must it be an either or? That is a false dilema. If the history in the Bible were not trustworthy, then there would be no need to explore any further. If there is no historical Jesus, then the miracles and the resurrection become moot.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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Re: New Shroud of Turin discovery only a few days ago!

Post by Murray »

Bryan are you familiar with the old testament? More accurate than many history textbooks.

The OT is widely considered a historical document because of its' incredible accuracy.
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Re: New Shroud of Turin discovery only a few days ago!

Post by StMonicaGuideMe »

Murray wrote:Soo... how bout that shroud :ebiggrin:

:pound:
To sustain the belief that there is no God, atheism has to demonstrate infinite knowledge, which is tantamount to saying, “I have infinite knowledge that there is no being in existence with infinite knowledge".
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