Christopher Hitchens passed away

[PaulSacramento]

I think it is very sad that Hitchens didn't really know what he was attacking. In others words he didn't really understand that he was attacking the G-d of love. A G-d who truly loved him and died for him.

Unfortunately many many people fail to see this point...

I agree, I think that IF he realized that the god he had issues with is the one we ALL would have issues with, maybe he would have seen things better.
I think that, IF we are right about him that (I hope) God's mercy is on him.

[Stu]

I think it is very sad that Hitchens didn't really know what he was attacking. In others words he didn't really understand that he was attacking the G-d of love. A G-d who truly loved him and died for him.

Unfortunately many many people fail to see this point...

Amen to that.

[Stu]

I think one of the many mistakes atheists make is in thinking Christians take delight in telling folks they might be going to hell.
I was having a very heated debate with someone on another forum surrounding this very topic. Now I know there are some Christians who do get up on their pedestal, but for me it is the exact opposite. No matter how flawed our characters, I wouldn't want to see anyone head down under; but that is God's word and so I accept it as such.
If God had said all you had to do to get into heaven was brush your teeth every morning and be as good as you can be every day, then that would have been his word too. God makes the rules.

[PaulSacramento]

Many viewed Christopher as the enemy and a persecuter, well, Christ told us how to deal with enemies and persecuters:
Love them, pray for them, feel compassion for them.

[wrain62]

I think one of the many mistakes atheists make is in thinking Christians take delight in telling folks they might be going to hell.
I was having a very heated debate with someone on another forum surrounding this very topic. Now I know there are some Christians who do get up on their pedestal, but for me it is the exact opposite. No matter how flawed our characters, I wouldn't want to see anyone head down under; but that is God's word and so I accept it as such.
If God had said all you had to do to get into heaven was brush your teeth every morning and be as good as you can be every day, then that would have been his word too. God makes the rules.

It is this that makes people think we live by blind faith. Hell is not some arbitrary place that God arbitrarily puts people into when reject him. It is the Power given to our creation(Free Will) that is absolutly respectful to us. The choice to submit to God and the choice to reject him must be polar opposites in order to honor the choice. To want somebody to go to heaven against their will is just plain disrespectful. We are to love each other, to make the choice available and give reasons why it is holy.

Why it is holy: this is one of the hardest answers to give and it requires a lot of love and attention on our parts.

My assertion is that it is not holy for arbitrary reasons. If God made us have to brush our teeth every morning and be as good as you can be every day to earn his approval, I would be very confused as to why. The only reason I could think of why would be to have arbitrary rituals to deliberatly set ourselves apart from other mankind-- like the law of the old testament. When we set ourselves apart for God we make a statment that stands in contrast to others-- And this I think was the objective of the law and the prophets Jesus spoke about. But since the laws were already fulfilled by him our duty now is not to only consecrate ourselves but to also to now spread the word to the four corners of the globe. The law of the OT was not important for it being the arbitrary apparent word of God, but for the intent of it all-- to make a statement to love what it stands for. Eating pork is not bad because our families say it is bad, but only if we fail to love what it stands for for that reason. Jesus constantly talked about how bad it is to only follow the laws for arbitrary reasons, but instead to see the point of having the law. For example, when the law says to not fornicate and we decide to have fantasies in our head about it instead of actually doing it, then we commit the sin in our hearts and it destroys the purpose of the law.

So what was the purpose of the law or what does it stand for?

This is what Jesus says: that all the works of the law and the prophets in actuality rest on the two commandments.

We don´t submit to God because he is some random athority that demands so, but because he is the embodiment of everything that is holy and it is good. And we want to submit to such purity in our days on this Earth. God Bless.

[Stu]

It is this that makes people think we live by blind faith. Hell is not some arbitrary place that God arbitrarily puts people into when reject him. It is the Power given to our creation(Free Will) that is absolutly respectful to us. The choice to submit to God and the choice to reject him must be polar opposites in order to honor the choice. To want somebody to go to heaven against their will is just plain disrespectful. We are to love each other, to make the choice available and give reasons why it is holy.

Why it is holy: this is one of the hardest answers to give and it requires a lot of love and attention on our parts.

My assertion is that it is not holy for arbitrary reasons. If God made us have to brush our teeth every morning and be as good as you can be every day to earn his approval, I would be very confused as to why. The only reason I could think of why would be to have arbitrary rituals to deliberatly set ourselves apart from other mankind-- like the law of the old testament. When we set ourselves apart for God we make a statment that stands in contrast to others-- And this I think was the objective of the law and the prophets Jesus spoke about. But since the laws were already fulfilled by him our duty now is not to only consecrate ourselves but to also to now spread the word to the four corners of the globe. The law of the OT was not important for it being the arbitrary apparent word of God, but for the intent of it all-- to make a statement to love what it stands for. Eating pork is not bad because our families say it is bad, but only if we fail to love what it stands for for that reason. Jesus constantly talked about how bad it is to only follow the laws for arbitrary reasons, but instead to see the point of having the law. For example, when the law says to not fornicate and we decide to have fantasies in our head about it instead of actually doing it, then we commit the sin in our hearts and it destroys the purpose of the law.

So what was the purpose of the law or what does it stand for?

This is what Jesus says: that all the works of the law and the prophets in actuality rest on the two commandments.

We don´t submit to God because he is some random athority that demands so, but because he is the embodiment of everything that is holy and it is good. And we want to submit to such purity in our days on this Earth. God Bless.

Thanks for that, you make some good points.

If my reasoning came across as somewhat cavalier, it wasn't meant as such, rather it was in reference to the particular debate I was referring to -- the person in question can't come to terms with a God that would send someone to "hell". As you pointed out, not only is it God's word but the reasoning incorporates far more than simply a worship me or go to hell mentality.

Not to veer too far off-topic, but to me the definition of a "hell" could very well also be an existence (eternity) without God.
From my experiences an existence of eternal loneliness could well be worse than a hell of fire and brimstone.

[StMonicaGuideMe]

I think one of the many mistakes atheists make is in thinking Christians take delight in telling folks they might be going to hell.
I was having a very heated debate with someone on another forum surrounding this very topic. Now I know there are some Christians who do get up on their pedestal, but for me it is the exact opposite. No matter how flawed our characters, I wouldn't want to see anyone head down under; but that is God's word and so I accept it as such.
If God had said all you had to do to get into heaven was brush your teeth every morning and be as good as you can be every day, then that would have been his word too. God makes the rules.

You are a better Christian than I, Stu, because a part of me feels sweet justice whenever I hear something like this happen. Yes, I think it's sad he may never know the glory of God, but he did have free will just like the rest of us, and he chose to live his life as a bigot. Though, I also agree that having such militant hate against us makes me want to know my faith even more.

[PaulSacramento]

If there is a God ( I of course believe there is) then, as Christ said, Christopher will be judged as He judged others.

[cubeus19]

This may be slightly off topic, but since Hitchens was part of the "new atheist four horsemen" who do you think will take his place?

[wrain62]

Thanks for that, you make some good points.If my reasoning came across as somewhat cavalier, it wasn't meant as such, rather it was in reference to the particular debate I was referring to -- the person in question can't come to terms with a God that would send someone to "hell". As you pointed out, not only is it God's word but the reasoning incorporates far more than simply a worship me or go to hell mentality.Not to veer too far off-topic, but to me the definition of a "hell" could very well also be an existence (eternity) without God.From my experiences an existence of eternal loneliness could well be worse than a hell of fire and brimstone.

Thank you. I realized that my first statment could have been startling after I wrote it so thanks for appreciating man.

[wrain62]

This may be slightly off topic, but since Hitchens was part of the "new atheist four horsemen" who do you think will take his place?

ThunderFoot maybe? A lot of people like him.

[Stu]

You are a better Christian than I, Stu, because a part of me feels sweet justice whenever I hear something like this happen. Yes, I think it's sad he may never know the glory of God, but he did have free will just like the rest of us, and he chose to live his life as a bigot. Though, I also agree that having such militant hate against us makes me want to know my faith even more.

Hehe yeah it's a tricky one I've been on both sides of the fence, so find it easy to put myself in the other sides shoes so to speak. I suppose the really militant atheists like Dawkins that not only separate themselves but deliberately try and steer others away from God I don't have much sympathy for. I don't remember the exact passage, but the Bible makes reference to this as well. It says there will be an especially harsh punishment for those who lead children away from God -- Dawkins' latest book is aimed at children really really poor form if you ask me. A kids book aiming at converting them to atheism

[StMonicaGuideMe]

You are a better Christian than I, Stu, because a part of me feels sweet justice whenever I hear something like this happen. Yes, I think it's sad he may never know the glory of God, but he did have free will just like the rest of us, and he chose to live his life as a bigot. Though, I also agree that having such militant hate against us makes me want to know my faith even more.

Hehe yeah it's a tricky one I've been on both sides of the fence, so find it easy to put myself in the other sides shoes so to speak. I suppose the really militant atheists like Dawkins that not only separate themselves but deliberately try and steer others away from God I don't have much sympathy for. I don't remember the exact passage, but the Bible makes reference to this as well. It says there will be an especially harsh punishment for those who lead children away from God -- Dawkins' latest book is aimed at children really really poor form if you ask me. A kids book aiming at converting them to atheism

Indeed I was checking it out. And he has the audacity to use the word "magic" in the title. Special circle of hell for that one, though the best justice would be his conversion before his death. I honestly think that people like Dawkins, with such obvious hatred and propagandists messages, are the pawns of the devil.

[CeT-To]

He made me a better christian a better apologist and I think I speak for many in that regard.
His views made me examine my faith and how to present it and defend it.
I thank him for that.

Likewise, the same can be said with the New Atheism group overall.

[narnia4]

Well first, one of the greatest minds of our times is really, really a stretch. I think some of these people are forgetting that even many atheists admitted that Hitchens was demolished by Craig in their debate, he's been demolished by others. He wasn't a professional in theology and lacked knowledge in many of the areas that you need knowledge in if you want to be taken seriously by people who DO know what they're talking about. Now what he did have was lots of wit and an entertaining writing style and a personality that, while not necessarily coming off as a "great guy" on a lot of levels, made him likeable even to those who vehemently disagreed with him. That's what excellent writing does to you though, I've read his stuff and disagreed with almost every word but still actually enjoyed it as pleasurable reading. I can hardly imagine even those who agree with Dawkins actually enjoying him because he's, frankly, an egotistical, narcissistic, bore and crummy human being (to put it nicely).

But since I'm being honest in this post... I have mixed feelings. On the one hand its true that he may have served to sharpen the minds and get some apologists to wake up and see that's its a hostile mind and learn how to deal with faulty thinking. Its also a tragic event, the death of a person who is going to spend eternity apart from God by his own choice unless he repented in his final days/hours/minutes. But on the other hand, this is a man who has planted seeds in the minds of young Christians (or at least theists raised in Christian homes) who were still on milk and didn't know any better. He spent much of his life fighting to turn people away from God and while there was obviously a choice involved for each individual, he succeeded many times. So I don't want to understate the horrible things he has done, from a Christian perspective it could easily be seen as worse than murder.