Free will and All loving vs. Predestination and Devine ****

[RickD]

Dom, you still haven't answered my question directly. In your interpretation of scripture, if I haven't been baptized by water, am I saved, or not? According to your interpretation, do I have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Yes or No? Simple questions. please give a direct answer.

[Philip]

Call it what you will - whatever theological identification, whatever term. But the bottom line is that it's an enormous mistake to believe that God has not put a choice before EVERYONE (whether to follow him, to repent, to accept Jesus, etc), that they can ALL choose to obey - or not.

In Acts 17:30 ("... now He COMMANDS ALL people EVERYWHERE to repent..."), did God give the world a command that He does not desire ALL men obey? Does God DESIRE rebellion of some men? As God expects His word to be obeyed, would He create some so that they could not obey it? Either God expects His commands to be obeyed or not!

But no one can obey God's commands on their OWN, within their own power. God must help and guide us to belief. A contradiction? NO! As ALL men are BORN able to either be WILLING to embrace God's overtures and proactive initiatives - OR to REBUFF them. God knows exactly who will reject all approaches He will make to them (and certainly through the General Revelation, already HAS; Some He has provided much more - the Gospel). So He knows that Person A will be positively receptive to His initiatives and that they will listen to and obey the promptings of His Spirit, so that HE can LEAD them to belief and salvation - but this can only be accomplished by God, Who made this possible through the Cross, ALONG WITH a person so WILLING to allow God to do what only HE can do (save us). God knows that Person B will remain UNWILLING to positively respond to His initiatives and that this UNWILLINGNESS will be permanent. God knows that no matter how much He tries to reach Person B, He will ultimately be rejected.

It has ALWAYS been God's desire that those He knew would be WILLING to be led and enlightened, BY HIM, who HE could accomplish salvation for, through 1) what He would provide them (a free, unearned choice made possible only by Jesus' sacrificial death and resurrection) AND 2) their WILLINGNESS to respond as HE would lead them. ALL men are born either able to be WILLING or UNWILLING (Acts 7:51: "... you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.") to embrace God's promptings. He leads ALL SO WILLING - all the way to belief and salvation. Thus, God chose the eternal fate of ALL men, before they were born, as He foreknew those who would be WILLING to respond as He desired them to - and those who would NOT. THIS is the basis of His choice. He set the criteria for His people and chose all who He foreknew would meet it (WILLINGNESS to embrace His prompting and leadership). All we can do, as mere beggars, be either WILLING to accept what God wants to make possible for us - or UNWILLING. But HE created the choice, and He gave us the free will to embrace or reject WHAT HE WANTS TO ACCOMPLISH in us (salvation), He approaches us FIRST, and it is HE Who accomplishes HIS saving work! But He does not make our choice for us.

[Byblos]

I don't think there is a contradiction between 2 and 3 - I Think 3 because of 2 if that makes any sense.

Ok, granted.

I don't see how the fact that you might have something within you that is independant of God that allows you to choose, amounts to a works based salvation at all. I really do not see the connection there at all. Although you could even say that you would not have freewill if it wasn't for God in the first place - so in a way it is not independant anyway.

It is a works-based salvation because it is precisely that something within you that you possess which makes you get saved, that others evidently do not possess and remain reprobate.

What is special about those who have heard and accepted - nothing - they made a free choice (the right one - but free nonetheless). Why are some saved and others not - because they chose.

And again, their ability to exercise their free choice makes them somehow being able to save themselves, while others who supposedly have the same free choice (and the same information upon which to make a decision) could not exercise that free choice to save themselves as well. So why do some free choices work and others don't?

If God is choosing who will come to him then like I said before that makes God very cruel because he is denying the others a chance and in fact creating them sorely for hell. I just personally think the theology of "the elect" is a total contradiction to an all loving God and a dangerous theology.

As I said, I do believe we have some measure of choice but it is not totally independent of God's.

Maybe I am looking at it from too human a view (which is the only way i can) but if you wanted the perfect relationship - wouldn't you create a being that chose you completely freely, physically independent from you. Sure you might influence that person - but not preprogram them to make the choices that you would want. That makes that person no better than a robot and the relationship is tainted.

Our human view is without a doubt limited, hence why some things will remain a mystery. No matter where we stand vis-a-vis free will (or lack thereof), what is crystal clear is that without faith in Christ we are dead in our sins. Scripture tells us to become like Christ, not to second guess God as to our final destination, and that is good enough for me.

[zacchaeus]

BUT... lol, these topics are quite serious and vital to SALVATION, (Heaven or hell)... if were predestined then well it doesn't matter if we chose God or not, or if we live how we want to, at the end of the day GOD is Ruler and will choose, or because of His calling and influence and the work of the Holy Spirit working within us and at our conscious we choose (feewill) Him then we are saved, not of our own works but its His works within us, just like we don't work to get saved but we work because we are saved.

[RickD]

John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

For those reading this thread, that want to see what this verse really means, in proper context, here's a link from the home site.
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/baptism.html

[neo-x]

by DannyM on Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:02 pm

Silvertusk wrote:
Not at all. If you did not have the gift of salvation given to you in the first place then you would not be able to choose it would you. But it is still your choice whether to accept that gift - therein lies your freewill. If you have been ordained from the beginning that you would never choose salvation and were built for hell then this view is no better than the materialists who state that we are no better than the sum of our parts and our whole life is determined by our genetic makeup. If we are made in Gods image then we have that unique gift of total freewill, anything less then we are just puppets made for God's sadistic pleasure considering the amount of people he created just to go to hell.


Silver, is the gift of salvation something God just puts out there, not knowing who will accept and who will scoff?

Although this is between silver and Danny, i'd like to say

Yes brother Danny, this is what I believe really happens. God puts it out there, its all on us now, either we accept or we do not. I personally think that middle knowledge is just a cop out to the main problem. God does not make guesses, he either knows or he doesn't. To God there would be no probability. Probability goes in the face of omniscience (no offence to anyone, just my opinion)

Danny worte

Ephesians 2:1-5
1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,

5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions— it is by grace you have been saved.

What happened when we were dead in our sins? "

the Holy spirit convicted us in our hearts, and thus we had the choice to turn to God or remain in our life, the holy spirit did not automatically made that choice for us rather he gave us the opportunity to see ourselves through the eyes of God.

Regeneration must precede faith-

Yes but only when regeneration is accepted through wilful submission to the call of repentance. The prodigal son remembered his father and decided to go back. His father never took him back himself. Going back was his choice. What his father did, was to wait for him, and through grace accept him back. So even when God had already enabled (I used this word cuz you mentioned it in your post, which I would quote down later, and then perhaps you can join the context , bro ) his son to come back without his knowledge, God did not automatically made his choice for him. He was to be well received whenever he choose to come. What God did was to enable him to enter once he comes back, which I think precisely is the work of Christ on the cross.

John 6:63-65
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

65 He went on to say, This is why I told you that no-one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.

First brother Danny, the words "For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him." are placed in brackets by some bible translations, which tells me that the text is not a literal part of the writing but a "theological reflection" to a certain view which the translator or the editor put in to clarify a certain meaning. I would not be surprised if this was added by someone who thought likewise and just supported the idea.

Second, "

This is why I told you that no-one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

when Jesus said this, had he died on the cross? No. Then how does the father enable someone? I think by grace, love and mercy. through Holy spirit. nonetheless the choice remains there. Also this particular instance may be credited to the call of being a disciple of Jesus, specifically. in the day and age.

Third, after Jesus died on the cross, his atonement and his blood is all that is needed to enable someone to come to Christ, and this is the work of the Father, is it not? It is that atonement now, which enables us to receive grace without any given works or criteria. In this way, God enables everyone who hears the gospel. Some are brave enough to venture on the narrow path, those who refuse, go on the easy path. Yet, the act the father enabling them, means not that they are automatically chosen on some unknown criteria and hence can not be lost or saved, one way or the other. I think the father enables us by the work of the holy spirit who convicts us of our guilt and shows us the love of Christ, even when we are dead in our sins. But we must accept that or reject that. When God enables us, the enabling part is just the part where we see how we have been wrong. Through the blood of Christ and his atonement we are now eligible carry out what we couldn't, by our own actions. So God's enabling is really what he has already done on the cross through his son.

About that choice which we talked, is also in John 6: 66-68

"66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.”
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)"

Jesus asks them to make up their minds, the choice is there and if it is, then it must be open and not predestined in God's knowledge.

I think God puts it out for everyone. So John 3:16 remains in effect all the time. It is really for all the world and if so, then surely it would be most unfair of God to just choose some people and enable them. If the father has only enabled some people to believe then this would be a direct opposition to John 3:16. If you say that the gospel is for everyone as John 3:16 says, then I really can't see how the above verse affects it. This is the heart of the matter, God's knowledge must have nothing to do to with our choice or else it is not our choice and by implication we don't have any. At least this is what I think brother Danny.

[Silvertusk]

I don't think there is a contradiction between 2 and 3 - I Think 3 because of 2 if that makes any sense.

Ok, granted.

I don't see how the fact that you might have something within you that is independant of God that allows you to choose, amounts to a works based salvation at all. I really do not see the connection there at all. Although you could even say that you would not have freewill if it wasn't for God in the first place - so in a way it is not independant anyway.

It is a works-based salvation because it is precisely that something within you that you possess which makes you get saved, that others evidently do not possess and remain reprobate.

What is special about those who have heard and accepted - nothing - they made a free choice (the right one - but free nonetheless). Why are some saved and others not - because they chose.

And again, their ability to exercise their free choice makes them somehow being able to save themselves, while others who supposedly have the same free choice (and the same information upon which to make a decision) could not exercise that free choice to save themselves as well. So why do some free choices work and others don't?

If God is choosing who will come to him then like I said before that makes God very cruel because he is denying the others a chance and in fact creating them sorely for hell. I just personally think the theology of "the elect" is a total contradiction to an all loving God and a dangerous theology.

As I said, I do believe we have some measure of choice but it is not totally independent of God's.

Maybe I am looking at it from too human a view (which is the only way i can) but if you wanted the perfect relationship - wouldn't you create a being that chose you completely freely, physically independent from you. Sure you might influence that person - but not preprogram them to make the choices that you would want. That makes that person no better than a robot and the relationship is tainted.

Our human view is without a doubt limited, hence why some things will remain a mystery. No matter where we stand vis-a-vis free will (or lack thereof), what is crystal clear is that without faith in Christ we are dead in our sins. Scripture tells us to become like Christ, not to second guess God as to our final destination, and that is good enough for me.

I disagree with you Byblos on the works thing - we still need the grace of God in the first place and we can't earn that - but we can choose that. I personally think you are making a very teniuos link between our ability to choose and it being a works based salvation.

I get the impression that you think I have a special power that made me freely choose God. I don't. I just made a decision based on my reasoning of the logic of it all. If I do have that special power - then why didn't he give it to my brother (someone who makes Dawkins look like a pussy cat) or my Dad, or my Uncle, or my Father-In-Law. Why doesn't he give them that power??? Because I want them to have it if that is the case. Otherwise it is plainly not fair. In the end it comes down to fact that God does not send people to hell - People do. The Holy Spirit convicts us and God brings revelations to us but we choose to heed it or ignore it. I can only pray that God brings further revelations to my family.

Silvertusk.

[DannyM]

What moves us in order to repent and respond?

Danny -Just to make my life easier - please answer your own questions as well in the same post otherwise this goes back and fore and unfortunately I don't have as much time on these forums as some of you and working the editing of all these quotes is doing my head in. I presume you are talking about the Holy Spirit - but I wont know until you respond. If that is the case then yes the HS does move everyone - but some choose to ignore it consistantly. I suppose this could be seen as the unforgivable sin. Some people need a bit more time for barriers to be broken down first but everyone has to be given the same chance.

John 6:44-45
44 No-one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

Are all men regenerated?

Don't understand what you are getting at here.

Regarding middle knowledge, if acts of the will are antecedent to God’s decree then we have a big problem here. But John can clear this up-

John 6:63-65
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

65 He went on to say, This is why I told you that no-one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.

None of these phrases are infringing on a persons freewill to choose. It is true that no one can come to salvation unless the "Father has enable him" but I believe God has enabled everyone - just some choose not to take it.

Of course there’s no infringement on the free will. I’m showing you that God knows who are His and who are not His.

So we agree - but still God wants everyone to be saved and still offers salvation to everyone so everyone is without excuse.

Who can teach God knowledge?

Isaiah 40:12-14
12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, or with the breadth of his hand marked off the heavens? Who has held the dust of the earth in a basket, or weighed the mountains on the scales and the hills in a balance?

13 Who has understood the mind of the LORD, or instructed him as his counsellor?

14 Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge or showed him the path of understanding?

Who says anything about teaching God Knowledge

You are, Silver. You said:

but I think due to his middle knowledge he certainly has a good idea what we will choose because he knows us so intimately.

In my opinion, Silver, this is all double-speak for “God knows.”

You said teaching God Knowledge - I did not state that at all - I state that God has the knowledge - I said nothing about teaching God - Have no clue where you got that from.

He predicts. He’s accurate. In other words, God knows you will be saved?

Agreed. I thought that was what I was implying in the first place.

Anything less, then God starts to contradict his benevolent nature by creating people just for hell.

How so? That’s a hell of a charge, Silver. At creation, did God foreknow that some would go to hell?

God would predict that some would not accept his Gift - but the fact here is that he offered it to them in the first place. This is what I mean - so no it is not a "hell of a charge" as you put it. If God did not offer salvation to them - then they have an excuse which contradicts Pauls declaration in Romans.

To be honest - i have kinda lost sight of what we are agreeing or disagreeing against now. Maybe if I put it out again in points what I believe.

1) God offers the gift of salvation to everyone because he wants all to be saved
2) God with his middle knowledge can predict the future with viritually 100% accuracy
3) God Knows what we will do - including our acceptance or rejection of his gift of salvation
4) We therefore have complete freewill and have not been predestined to do anything
5) We have no excuse when we are judged.

One more thing - The reason I was frustrated with you at the beginning at this post Danny is I cannot work out how to arrange these bloody quotes - so the less I have to try an insert comments inbetween mutiple lines the better I am - so I would prefer that you would put your point across in its full just to help me out - I appreciate the level of my muppetism here.

Silver, I'm going to take this quote into a new thread a little later on, as this thread has turned into a theological train wreck, a complete and utter mess. Speak to you in a while.

[Silvertusk]

Thanks Danny. You are probably right.

[DannyM]

Silver, I‘m sorry if my quoting is off-putting, but it‘s the only way I know how in order to be clear.

If that is the case then yes the HS does move everyone - but some choose to ignore it consistantly. I suppose this could be seen as the unforgivable sin. Some people need a bit more time for barriers to be broken down first but everyone has to be given the same chance.

Can you show me where the Spirit moves everyone?

Don't understand what you are getting at here.

Regeneration is the spiritual change wrought in the heart of man by the Holy Spirit in which his/her inherently sinful nature is changed so that he/she can respond to God in Faith, and live in accordance with His Will (Matt. 19:28; John 3:3,5,7; Titus 3:5). It extends to the whole nature of man, altering his governing disposition, illuminating his mind, freeing his will, and renewing his nature.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/regenera.htm

Ephesians 2:3-5
3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,

5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions— it is by grace you have been saved.

We are made alive while we are dead, Silver. How is that? The Spirit enters the heart before we believe.

John 6:65
He went on to say, This is why I told you that no-one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.

How does the Father enable us? Is it just by throwing the offer out there and see who grabs it? Or is it that we are made alive in Christ prior to our faith?

Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honoured the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

The Bible doesn’t say “all who believe were appointed for eternal life,” it says “all who were appointed for eternal life believed.”

No predestination, Silver? No election?

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Jesus will never drive away the sheep. There are some who are not, and never can be His sheep:

John 10:26
you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

John 8:47
He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.

So we agree - but still God wants everyone to be saved and still offers salvation to everyone so everyone is without excuse.

No, I disagree.

You said teaching God Knowledge - I did not state that at all - I state that God has the knowledge - I said nothing about teaching God - Have no clue where you got that from.

Brother, you said God makes something resembling an educated guess. That means uncertainty, and therefore means God is waiting for knowledge to be imparted to Him. Hence God is being “taught knowledge” in the eyes of those who want to hold to this middle knowledge.

He predicts. He’s accurate. In other words, God knows you will be saved?

Agreed. I thought that was what I was implying in the first place.

I’m confused, Silver, since it seems you are saying two opposite things.

God would predict that some would not accept his Gift - but the fact here is that he offered it to them in the first place. This is what I mean - so no it is not a "hell of a charge" as you put it. If God did not offer salvation to them - then they have an excuse which contradicts Pauls declaration in Romans.

Paul says all sinners and without excuse. But more to the point, on your view we have a God who knowingly creates people who will go to hell no matter what he does to try to save them. Couldn’t I lay the same bogus charge back at you here, Bro? If I were to take the kind of stance you are, then why does your God get off Scott free when the same charge can be thrown back your way?

The point is, no-one deserves God’s grace; the fact He wills that some remain in debt has no bearing on His goodness and good justice. It would be an emotional and very human argument that states otherwise.

1) God offers the gift of salvation to everyone because he wants all to be saved
2) God with his middle knowledge can predict the future with viritually 100% accuracy
3) God Knows what we will do - including our acceptance or rejection of his gift of salvation
4) We therefore have complete freewill and have not been predestined to do anything
5) We have no excuse when we are judged.

1 is unproven
2 is ambiguous
3 agreed, since it is predetermined
4 false and entirely unbiblical
5 not sure what this means

Hope my quoting isn’t too off, Silver, but if it is please forgive me.

God bless

[RickD]

Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace you have been saved through faith; and [a]that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

God's grace is what saves us, through faith. The faith that comes from God. Our sinful nature prohibits us from coming to God. That's why we need faith from God, in order to accept His Grace.

[RickD]

This thread was split. With the baptism posts going to a new threadhttp://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=36520
Sorry for the confusion. In the process of splitting the thread, it seems some of the "baptism" replies got deleted. Most of the deleted replies were mine. So, don't get any ideas that I just deleted the posts I didn't like. This was my first time splitting a thread, so I hope You all will forgive me.

[RickD]

Guys, I butchered the splitting of this thread so badly, that the new thread makes no sense now. I think the best thing to do, is to start a new thread on Water Baptism, beginning with Dom's original post that started it, in the first place. Everyone gets a new start to post in the new thread. Sorry, again>

[Silvertusk]

Silver, I‘m sorry if my quoting is off-putting, but it‘s the only way I know how in order to be clear.

If that is the case then yes the HS does move everyone - but some choose to ignore it consistantly. I suppose this could be seen as the unforgivable sin. Some people need a bit more time for barriers to be broken down first but everyone has to be given the same chance.

Can you show me where the Spirit moves everyone?

Don't understand what you are getting at here.

Regeneration is the spiritual change wrought in the heart of man by the Holy Spirit in which his/her inherently sinful nature is changed so that he/she can respond to God in Faith, and live in accordance with His Will (Matt. 19:28; John 3:3,5,7; Titus 3:5). It extends to the whole nature of man, altering his governing disposition, illuminating his mind, freeing his will, and renewing his nature.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/regenera.htm

Ephesians 2:3-5
3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,

5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions— it is by grace you have been saved.

We are made alive while we are dead, Silver. How is that? The Spirit enters the heart before we believe.

John 6:65
He went on to say, This is why I told you that no-one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.

How does the Father enable us? Is it just by throwing the offer out there and see who grabs it? Or is it that we are made alive in Christ prior to our faith?

Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honoured the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

The Bible doesn’t say “all who believe were appointed for eternal life,” it says “all who were appointed for eternal life believed.”

No predestination, Silver? No election?

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Jesus will never drive away the sheep. There are some who are not, and never can be His sheep:

John 10:26
you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

John 8:47
He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.

So we agree - but still God wants everyone to be saved and still offers salvation to everyone so everyone is without excuse.

No, I disagree.

You said teaching God Knowledge - I did not state that at all - I state that God has the knowledge - I said nothing about teaching God - Have no clue where you got that from.

Brother, you said God makes something resembling an educated guess. That means uncertainty, and therefore means God is waiting for knowledge to be imparted to Him. Hence God is being “taught knowledge” in the eyes of those who want to hold to this middle knowledge.

He predicts. He’s accurate. In other words, God knows you will be saved?

Agreed. I thought that was what I was implying in the first place.

I’m confused, Silver, since it seems you are saying two opposite things.

God would predict that some would not accept his Gift - but the fact here is that he offered it to them in the first place. This is what I mean - so no it is not a "hell of a charge" as you put it. If God did not offer salvation to them - then they have an excuse which contradicts Pauls declaration in Romans.

Paul says all sinners and without excuse. But more to the point, on your view we have a God who knowingly creates people who will go to hell no matter what he does to try to save them. Couldn’t I lay the same bogus charge back at you here, Bro? If I were to take the kind of stance you are, then why does your God get off Scott free when the same charge can be thrown back your way?

The point is, no-one deserves God’s grace; the fact He wills that some remain in debt has no bearing on His goodness and good justice. It would be an emotional and very human argument that states otherwise.

1) God offers the gift of salvation to everyone because he wants all to be saved
2) God with his middle knowledge can predict the future with viritually 100% accuracy
3) God Knows what we will do - including our acceptance or rejection of his gift of salvation
4) We therefore have complete freewill and have not been predestined to do anything
5) We have no excuse when we are judged.

1 is unproven
2 is ambiguous
3 agreed, since it is predetermined
4 false and entirely unbiblical
5 not sure what this means

Hope my quoting isn’t too off, Silver, but if it is please forgive me.

God bless

To be honest Danny I do respect what you are saying - but there are too many other scriptures that point the other way as well - John 3:16 for instance to name one. But for me it is more of an emotional issue - Let me ask you a question - If your boy grew up an atheist and rejected God outright - how could you reconcile yourself with God when he chose not to chose your child as a believer. I have the same issue - Why did God choose me and not my brother, my Dad, my father in-law and my Uncle. What happens if my little girl also grows up also not chosen by God. Could I possibly worship and love a God who didn't give my family the same chance as me - especially my little girl after all the trouble we went through to get a child in the first place. Does that honestly sound fair to you? I think this might be one of those areas where we have to respectfully agree to disagree as I cannot see an all loving God fitting in the other scenario - and I know I am certainly not alone in this view.

God Bless

Silvertusk

[RickD]

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life

Silvertusk, I just can't get past this verse either. I can see many other verses on both sides of the argument, going either way. But this just stands out, to me.