CBM - The Circularity Bogy Man

[DannyM]

Oh there is no way for US to convince ANY skeptic, that is God's place with His Holy Spirit.
I simply try NOT to be a "stumbling block" for any that have questions.
And for many skeptics, "circular logic" is just that ( regardless of we are or not).

Paul, have you ever thought of exposing the atheist's own circular logic?

[RickD]

Katabole,

Excellent post! I want to pick two paragraphs. First, this almost forensic offering:

I, like Dan, cannot understand the position of those who assert and believe that many of the Bible's parts are myths, mistranslations and forgeries, while at the same time they continue to quote it, write commentaries upon it and accept endorsements and dignities for preaching or lecturing about it. The Bible simply claims to be the Word of God. It does not attempt to establish its claim, or seek to prove it. It merely assumes it and asserts it. It is for us to believe it or to leave it. But, by believing it, our aim then is to seek to understand what God has thus written for our learning.

Precisely! If anyone is in any doubt, read this paragraph carefully.

Unfortunately, the church in our generation is drifting from these fundamental convictions and has already begun to embrace postmodern ideas uncritically. Many churches do not teach the Bible anymore and so the sheep, starve. Evangelicalism is quickly losing its footing, and the church is becoming more and more like the world. Fewer and fewer Christians are willing to stand against the trends, and the effects have been disastrous. Subjectivity, irrationality, worldliness, uncertainty, compromise, and hypocrisy have already become commonplace among churches and organizations that once constituted the evangelical mainstream.

What is it with this ‘post-modernism’? As far as I’m aware it says that everybody is right and nobody is wrong. Can you clear this up for me?

Danny, that my friend, is precisely why I'm fed up with the "church scene". It's as if all of a sudden, the bible, and the cross of Christ have lost their power.
People today, need the real Jesus. Not some sugar coated gospel.

[RickD]

Yet Scripture is seen to be inerrant "when the ipsissima verba of the original autographs are ascertained and interpreted in their natural and intended sense."14 Inerrancy is not attributed to copies, much less to our vernacular translations, but to "the original autographic text."15

[Katabole]

What is it with this ‘post-modernism’? As far as I’m aware it says that everybody is right and nobody is wrong. Can you clear this up for me?

Oh, it's because we live in an age of individualistic relativism. Tolerance in Western society presently, for example, is the supreme virtue of the public square. Tolerant people can be broad thinkers, open-minded, and charitable to every worldview—every worldview, that is, except biblical Christianity. The authoritative demands of Jesus Christ are beyond the threshold of postmodern tolerance. As a matter of fact, tolerance may soon be the only virtue secular society will embrace. Many traditional virtues (including humility, self-control, and chastity) have already fallen out of public favor and in some quarters are openly scorned or even regarded as transgressions.

Instead, with the beatification of tolerance, what was once forbidden is now encouraged. What was once universally deemed immoral is now celebrated. Marital infidelity and divorce have been normalized. Profanity is commonplace. Abortion, homosexuality, and moral perversions of all kinds are championed by large advocacy groups and tacitly encouraged by the popular media. The modern notion of “tolerance” is systematically turning morality on its head. Just about the only remaining taboo is the naive and politically incorrect notion that another person’s “alternative lifestyle,” religion, or different perspective is wrong.

One major exception to that rule stands out starkly: it is OK to be intolerant of biblical Christianity. In fact, those who fancy themselves the leading advocates of religious tolerance today are often the most outspoken opponents of evangelical Christianity. A classic example of this is the Web site at religioustolerance.org. Page after page at that Web site lambastes Bible-based Christianity. It is one of the most bitterly anti-Christian sites on the internet.

The question you ask is the same question I ask. Why does authentic biblical Christianity find such ferocious opposition among today’s self-styled champions of “religious tolerance”? For example, the bus adds that read, 'There's probably no god, so stop worrying and get on with your life'. Why is it that they make synonymous belief in God and worry? Are they afraid to meet God as judge? Though these people claim not to be judgmental, they really are quick to judge. And yet they support and fight for liberal rights at any cost? Why?

It is because Christianity is diametrically opposed to the postmodern ideas that have made this an age of “tolerance.”

Truly, it's prophecy in motion, 2Tim 4:3.

[PaulSacramento]

Oh there is no way for US to convince ANY skeptic, that is God's place with His Holy Spirit.
I simply try NOT to be a "stumbling block" for any that have questions.
And for many skeptics, "circular logic" is just that ( regardless of we are or not).

Paul, have you ever thought of exposing the atheist's own circular logic?

Whenever the try to play the "evil" or "suffering" or "morals" card.

[DannyM]

Oh, it's because we live in an age of individualistic relativism. Tolerance in Western society presently, for example, is the supreme virtue of the public square. Tolerant people can be broad thinkers, open-minded, and charitable to every worldview—every worldview, that is, except biblical Christianity. The authoritative demands of Jesus Christ are beyond the threshold of postmodern tolerance. As a matter of fact, tolerance may soon be the only virtue secular society will embrace. Many traditional virtues (including humility, self-control, and chastity) have already fallen out of public favor and in some quarters are openly scorned or even regarded as transgressions.

This is why Christian post-modernists baffle me!

Instead, with the beatification of tolerance, what was once forbidden is now encouraged. What was once universally deemed immoral is now celebrated. Marital infidelity and divorce have been normalized. Profanity is commonplace. Abortion, homosexuality, and moral perversions of all kinds are championed by large advocacy groups and tacitly encouraged by the popular media. The modern notion of “tolerance” is systematically turning morality on its head. Just about the only remaining taboo is the naive and politically incorrect notion that another person’s “alternative lifestyle,” religion, or different perspective is wrong.

I’m pretty sure political correctness was here before post-modernism. Post-modernism only exacerbated this nonsense.

One major exception to that rule stands out starkly: it is OK to be intolerant of biblical Christianity. In fact, those who fancy themselves the leading advocates of religious tolerance today are often the most outspoken opponents of evangelical Christianity. A classic example of this is the Web site at religioustolerance.org. Page after page at that Web site lambastes Bible-based Christianity. It is one of the most bitterly anti-Christian sites on the internet.

Yes, I’ve seen that site … ‘Irony’ is not the word…

The question you ask is the same question I ask. Why does authentic biblical Christianity find such ferocious opposition among today’s self-styled champions of “religious tolerance”? For example, the bus adds that read, 'There's probably no god, so stop worrying and get on with your life'. Why is it that they make synonymous belief in God and worry? Are they afraid to meet God as judge? Though these people claim not to be judgmental, they really are quick to judge. And yet they support and fight for liberal rights at any cost? Why?

I know. The implication in those ads was clear. Typical of the morally bankrupt Dawkins. One wonders why the misrepresentations are so blatant and numerous…

It is because Christianity is diametrically opposed to the postmodern ideas that have made this an age of “tolerance.”

Truly, it's prophecy in motion, 2Tim 4:3.

Yeah, you confirmed my fears about post-modernism. Thanks, Katabole.

[DannyM]

Oh there is no way for US to convince ANY skeptic, that is God's place with His Holy Spirit.
I simply try NOT to be a "stumbling block" for any that have questions.
And for many skeptics, "circular logic" is just that ( regardless of we are or not).

Paul, have you ever thought of exposing the atheist's own circular logic?

Whenever the try to play the "evil" or "suffering" or "morals" card.

Good.

[DannyM]

What is it with this ‘post-modernism’? As far as I’m aware it says that everybody is right and nobody is wrong. Can you clear this up for me?

Danny, that my friend, is precisely why I'm fed up with the "church scene". It's as if all of a sudden, the bible, and the cross of Christ have lost their power.
People today, need the real Jesus. Not some sugar coated gospel.

I agree. It's self-defeating anyway! Makes the mind boggle

[PaulSacramento]

I know. The implication in those ads was clear. Typical of the morally bankrupt Dawkins. One wonders why the misrepresentations are so blatant and numerous…

"Sunday school theology" is a dangerous things in the hands of people like Dawkins, Harris, Dennet and others.
They learn just enough to find the stuff they don't like and to confirm ( to themselves) the truth that they have always known:
Religion is evil and causes hate and intolerance, it drives people to kill, makes good people bad and the bible is a prime example as it shows that God is a genocidal egomaniacal maniac

[DannyM]

I know. The implication in those ads was clear. Typical of the morally bankrupt Dawkins. One wonders why the misrepresentations are so blatant and numerous…

"Sunday school theology" is a dangerous things in the hands of people like Dawkins, Harris, Dennet and others.
They learn just enough to find the stuff they don't like and to confirm ( to themselves) the truth that they have always known:
Religion is evil and causes hate and intolerance, it drives people to kill, makes good people bad and the bible is a prime example as it shows that God is a genocidal egomaniacal maniac

Absolutely. Doesn't it make you wonder why they so blatantly (and surely *knowingly*) distort Christianity and Christian theology?

[PaulSacramento]

I know. The implication in those ads was clear. Typical of the morally bankrupt Dawkins. One wonders why the misrepresentations are so blatant and numerous…

"Sunday school theology" is a dangerous things in the hands of people like Dawkins, Harris, Dennet and others.
They learn just enough to find the stuff they don't like and to confirm ( to themselves) the truth that they have always known:
Religion is evil and causes hate and intolerance, it drives people to kill, makes good people bad and the bible is a prime example as it shows that God is a genocidal egomaniacal maniac

Absolutely. Doesn't it make you wonder why they so blatantly (and surely *knowingly*) distort Christianity and Christian theology?

Well, part of me HOPES it is just ignorance.
The other part fears that it is something far more disturbing than that.

An example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6twSN8ZS_VA

[DannyM]

From the link at the top of the thread:

When arguing for an ultimate criterion; one must use criterion compatible with that conclusion. Vlach notes this as well, “Assuming the truth of Christianity is not a vicious circular argument. As Frame puts it, ‘the rational basis for faith is God’s own rationality. The sequence is: God’s rationality → human faith → human reasoning. The arrows may be read ‘is the rational basis for’ (Frame in Cowan, 210). Thus, the sequence is linear, not circular.”

The sequence: God's rationality (is the rational foundation for) --> human faith (which is the rational foundation for) --> human reasoning.

Linear, not circular...

Not that circularity is an issue, but any thoughts on this bit...

[DannyM]

Absolutely. Doesn't it make you wonder why they so blatantly (and surely *knowingly*) distort Christianity and Christian theology?

Well, part of me HOPES it is just ignorance.
The other part fears that it is something far more disturbing than that.

An example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6twSN8ZS_VA

Oh dear...

[PaulSacramento]

Absolutely. Doesn't it make you wonder why they so blatantly (and surely *knowingly*) distort Christianity and Christian theology?

Well, part of me HOPES it is just ignorance.
The other part fears that it is something far more disturbing than that.

An example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6twSN8ZS_VA

Oh dear...

Indeed.
That is what you get when you combine selective interpretaion with literal readings AND a preconceived notion - all aimed for the negative.

[DannyM]

Danny and Paul,
I know both you know this, so I'm not speaking directly to you. The only way we can reach unbelievers is through prayer. God has to be the one to open them up to His message. That is the only way they can begin to understand anything of God. That is the only way any of us came to understand anything from God. That's the difference between making arguments through the guiding of the Holy Spirit, and making arguments through our own power. The power of the flesh.

Rick, I didn't see this the thread moved so fast!

I'm in complete agreement! God has to move the unbeliever first. And if we do succeed in opening the eyes of the unbeliever, it is because we are guided by the Holy spirit. Thus it is His work, and not ours. Spot on, Rick, in my opinion.

Incidentally, on a side note, this can happen with the evidentialist just as readily as it can with the presuppositionalist.