Romans 9:14-30 - God Hardens Hearts?

Discussions about the Bible, and any issues raised by Scripture.
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puritan lad
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#46

Post by puritan lad » Fri Nov 11, 2005 12:00 pm

Fortigurn wrote:As for the quote from Acts, please study the textual issue here, but that aisde surely you don't believe that God literally has blood? The payment figure is simply a metaphor - reading too much into it results in theological absurdity.
Yes, God (Jesus Christ) has blood. He spilt it for full payment (redemption - the words are synonyms) for our sins. God was manifested in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16).

Hebrews 10:4-5
"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “ Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me."

Your desperate attempt to deny Christ His full glory as a member of the Trinity is an abject failure. Metaphor? Please.
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN

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#47

Post by Fortigurn » Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:01 am

puritan lad wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:As for the quote from Acts, please study the textual issue here, but that aisde surely you don't believe that God literally has blood? The payment figure is simply a metaphor - reading too much into it results in theological absurdity.
Yes, God (Jesus Christ) has blood. He spilt it for full payment (redemption - the words are synonyms) for our sins.
I didn't ask if the body of Jesus Christ had blood, I asked if God had blood. And you haven't actually dealt with the textual issue here either.

By the way, redemption is not synonymous with payment.
God was manifested in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16).
You do know that 'manifested' means 'shown'?
Your desperate attempt to deny Christ His full glory as a member of the Trinity is an abject failure. Metaphor? Please.
It is a metaphor unless you can show me that God predicated forgiveness on a bucket of blood. The irony is that you merely turn Christ into a better kind of goat.

What was the aim of the quote from Hebrews by the way?

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#48

Post by Fortigurn » Sat Nov 12, 2005 3:01 am

puritan lad wrote:Redeem: re·deem
Pronunciation: ri-'dEm
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English redemen, modification of Middle French redimer, from Latin redimere, from re-, red- re- + emere to take, buy; akin to Lithuanian imti to take
1 a : to buy back : REPURCHASE b : to get or win back
2 : to free from what distresses or harms: as a : to free from captivity by payment of ransom b : to extricate from or help to overcome something detrimental c : to release from blame or debt : CLEAR d : to free from the consequences of sin
3 : to change for the better : REFORM
4 : REPAIR, RESTORE
5 a : to free from a lien by payment of an amount secured thereby b (1) : to remove the obligation of by payment <the U.S. Treasury redeems savings bonds on demand> (2) : to exchange for something of value <redeem trading stamps> c : to make good : FULFILL
6 a : to atone for : EXPIATE b (1) : to offset the bad effect of (2) : to make worthwhile : RETRIEVE

We have full redemption (Payment). The sins of God's elect were paid in full at Calvary. There is nothing else which needs to be done. It is finished.
You're exegeting the English.

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#49

Post by B. W. » Sat Nov 12, 2005 12:18 pm

Fortigurn,

Jude 4 "For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."

Fortigurn, can you call Jesus Christ your only Master and Lord?

Fortigurn, can you like Thomas says in John 20:28, " My Lord and my God!"

Fortigurn, Do you believe that Jesus was a sacrifice to atone for sins? Or not? I mean a perfect sacrifice that reconciles, covers, cleanses forever!

Fortigurn, Why does God make such a fuss over a sacrifice?

Fortigurn, What importance was Jesus' experience on the cross?

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#50

Post by puritan lad » Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:47 pm

Fortigurn wrote:You're exegeting the English.
That's the second time you've accused me of this without exegeting the Greek for me. You're welcome to do so.
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN

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#51

Post by Byblos » Sat Nov 12, 2005 7:44 pm

puritan lad wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:You're exegeting the English.
That's the second time you've accused me of this without exegeting the Greek for me. You're welcome to do so.
Oh, you're not the only one he's accused of exegeting the English. You only need to go so far as the Holy Trinity thread and find out.

I, as a Catholic, may have a slightly different take on 'It is finished' but in no way does that change the meaning of Jesus' sacrifice and that being that he died for us and for the forgiveness of our sins, then was resurrected for us to have eternal salvation. .

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#52

Post by Fortigurn » Sun Nov 13, 2005 12:42 am

B. W. wrote:Fortigurn,

Jude 4 "For admission has been secretly gained by some who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ."

Fortigurn, can you call Jesus Christ your only Master and Lord?

Fortigurn, can you like Thomas says in John 20:28, " My Lord and my God!"
Yes.
Fortigurn, Do you believe that Jesus was a sacrifice to atone for sins? Or not? I mean a perfect sacrifice that reconciles, covers, cleanses forever!
If you mean a perfect sacrifice that reconciles, covers and cleanses (rather than the propitiation of an angry God who was intent on destroying us), then I agree.
Fortigurn, Why does God make such a fuss over a sacrifice?
Because of what it cost Him, and what He gains from it.
Fortigurn, What importance was Jesus' experience on the cross?
John 3:16; 12:32, Romans 3:25-26, 1 Peter 2:21-25.

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#53

Post by Fortigurn » Sun Nov 13, 2005 1:11 am

puritan lad wrote:
Fortigurn wrote:You're exegeting the English.
That's the second time you've accused me of this without exegeting the Greek for me. You're welcome to do so.
See here.

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