Did God come to earth in the flesh?

Discussions about the Bible, and any issues raised by Scripture.
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Re: Did God come to earth in the flesh?

#31

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:01 am

Domenic wrote:Paul,
Where did you get the idea God doesn't need anything, or have to (have) anything?
If God NEEDS something or HAS to have something, it means He is NOT God because He would be not only changeable and moveable BUT also incomplete and not whole.

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Re: Did God come to earth in the flesh?

#32

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:05 am

Domenic wrote:
Dude? Let me brake down the scripture for you. I do understand how many people read it. It was written telling two events, and has to be viewed as two events:
God creates Jesus
Through Jesus God creates everything else.

Colossians 1:15
“He is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION; by means of him all other things were created in the Heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordship or governments or authorities. All (other) things have been created through him and for him.

Colossians 1:15

1) THE FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION;
2) by means of him all other things were created

1) We have two words that seem to be in conflict, Born, and Created. Three thing are for certain here...he was either Born, Created, or both.

2) After he was..one or all of the above three...it was by means of him that ALL OTHER things were created.
Since all things were created by God through Jesus...Jesus was there at the beginning of creation with God. This is why Jesus is called the first Born of all Creation to show Jesus was with Father before all other things were created.

That is hard for me to explain, so if you don't understand how I said it, I'll try again...Dude.
Dominci, for the LAST time, the scriptures do NOT read all OTHER things, that is only in the NWT translation where the JW's INSERTED the word "other" to justify their view that Jesus was created.
Again, every text that we have, from the earliest on, does NOT have the word "other" in it.
I have made that clear a couple of times already if you persist in ignoring this then what is the point of discussing this at all ?

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Re: Did God come to earth in the flesh?

#33

Post by Domenic » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:01 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Domenic wrote:
Dude? Let me brake down the scripture for you. I do understand how many people read it. It was written telling two events, and has to be viewed as two events:
God creates Jesus
Through Jesus God creates everything else.

Colossians 1:15
“He is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION; by means of him all other things were created in the Heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordship or governments or authorities. All (other) things have been created through him and for him.

Colossians 1:15

1) THE FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION;
2) by means of him all other things were created

1) We have two words that seem to be in conflict, Born, and Created. Three thing are for certain here...he was either Born, Created, or both.

2) After he was..one or all of the above three...it was by means of him that ALL OTHER things were created.
Since all things were created by God through Jesus...Jesus was there at the beginning of creation with God. This is why Jesus is called the first Born of all Creation to show Jesus was with Father before all other things were created.

That is hard for me to explain, so if you don't understand how I said it, I'll try again...Dude.
Dominci, for the LAST time, the scriptures do NOT read all OTHER things, that is only in the NWT translation where the JW's INSERTED the word "other" to justify their view that Jesus was created.
Again, every text that we have, from the earliest on, does NOT have the word "other" in it.
I have made that clear a couple of times already if you persist in ignoring this then what is the point of discussing this at all ?
I'm sorry Paul, but my King James says the same thing that the NWT says. Colossians 1:15
King James Version ISBN 9789868522312
I suggest you check it out...you are wrong.

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Re: Did God come to earth in the flesh?

#34

Post by B. W. » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:22 am

PaulSacramento wrote:Dominci, for the LAST time, the scriptures do NOT read all OTHER things, that is only in the NWT translation where the JW's INSERTED the word "other" to justify their view that Jesus was created.

Again, every text that we have, from the earliest on, does NOT have the word "other" in it.

I have made that clear a couple of times already if you persist in ignoring this then what is the point of discussing this at all ?
Dominic, for someone claiming to have have left the JW's, you still use the NWT? Again, I challenge to take a few basic Biblical Greek and Hebrew Classes, and you will discover that Paul is correct as well as Jac, others, and myself regarding the text you cite.

As I stated a few frames back...
The Simplicity of the matter is: Only God can save, no other God, therefore, Jesus is God because he saves and is worshiped as well. For Jesus to be God, means he preexisted as God and the doctrine of the Trinty is true, after all, as it is written: "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me?" Jer 32:27 NASB

He most certainly can come in the Flesh. The the 2nd person of the one God most certainly could because there is none like God as Isa 46:9 states,therefore, God's oneness has to be absolutely unlike our concept of oneness for there to be truly none like Him. In fact the preexistence Jesus mentioned this about himself in the OT, as well as the Father and Holy Spirit too. Where?

Isa 43:10 "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me."

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isa 45:21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.

And in the New which matches the Old in Isa 45:22-23 in:

Philippians 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Problem is for oneness folks is that they do not understand monogenese or that the the Messiah spoken of in the Bible (OT) would be God himself, joining with Humanity as a son of man so we can become his adopted sons and daughters of God. Oneness folks do take the bible concerning Jesus illiterately... y:-?

God did say this - "Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.." For that to remain true for the unchanging God who keeps his word and lies not would mean that by creating another in flesh that would be worshiped and extolled as equal with God even in heaven as Rev 5:12-13 would be contradictory to God's own word spoken long ago. It stands to reason that Jesus is God manifest in Human Flesh because only God can save from sins. Jesus spoke of this in Isaiah and the Prophets and even in the Torah...

Bible quotes form NASB and NKJV
For what you say to be true would prove that God made a logical contradiction and thus proves himself false to his own words, oaths, promises and thus not God supreme.

Isaiah 43:10 would not be true: "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." NASB

Nether would Deut 4:35, Deut 4:39, Isa 44:8, Isa 42:8

...Isa 45:6, Isa 46:8,9, Deut 32:4, Deut 32:31, Psa 18:31

...Isa 37:16, Isa 37:20, Isa 43:10-11, Isa 45:6, Isa 45:21-22, Deut 32:39

Please notice this that YHWH Lord is mentioned three times:

Isa 33:22 For the our judge, The LORD is our lawgiver, The LORD is our king; He will save us

It is obvious that the YHWH is speaking in these verses...

Isa 48:16, 17 "Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit." 17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you to profit, Who leads you in the way you should go."

Adoni YHWH (Father) has sent Me (Pre-incarnate Jesus), and His Spirit (Holy Spirit). Then in verse 17, the one speaking, Jesus the Son says: "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you to profit, Who leads you in the way you should go...

He identifies Himself as the only redeemer and YHWH humanities Elohim (the Plural Majestic One). Jesus is known as the Redeemer in Christianity and ancient Yahwist Trinitarian Judaism which the OT was written...

Dominic, your doctrine violates what God says about himself and seeks to pit and play God's own character attributes against each other. This is very dangerous. I would burn your JW NWT and invest in the NASB and take a few classes as I suggested...

Cannot you see how your interpretation of of Col 1:15 and Col 2:9 is in error as it violates what God speaks and says about himself as revealed within the scriptures?

Col 1:15 the word is monogenes - which refers to one of a kind - unique - one and only who has all authority over all the universe because the one and only one created it... as the context says and continuity of the scriptures verify.

You suggest that God made another god, when God himself states clearly that is something he will never do. You cannot escape this, Dominic.

Archaic Biblical Hebrew had approx 8,000 to 10,000 words. Our English uses approx 500,000 words. Ancient Hebrew writers used the same word many times to express different things. Such is the use of gods (Elohim) when refering to human judges, rulers, sent to exercise justice as God representatives. Not that these folks are gods as God is. Not at all. They did not have all the words we use to express certain ideas rather they used the context to indicates this...
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Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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Re: Did God come to earth in the flesh?

#35

Post by Domenic » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:30 am

B. W. wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Dominci, for the LAST time, the scriptures do NOT read all OTHER things, that is only in the NWT translation where the JW's INSERTED the word "other" to justify their view that Jesus was created.

Again, every text that we have, from the earliest on, does NOT have the word "other" in it.

I have made that clear a couple of times already if you persist in ignoring this then what is the point of discussing this at all ?
Dominic, for someone claiming to have have left the JW's, you still use the NWT? Again, I challenge to take a few basic Biblical Greek and Hebrew Classes, and you will discover that Paul is correct as well as Jac, others, and myself regarding the text you cite.

As I stated a few frames back...
The Simplicity of the matter is: Only God can save, no other God, therefore, Jesus is God because he saves and is worshiped as well. For Jesus to be God, means he preexisted as God and the doctrine of the Trinty is true, after all, as it is written: "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me?" Jer 32:27 NASB

He most certainly can come in the Flesh. The the 2nd person of the one God most certainly could because there is none like God as Isa 46:9 states,therefore, God's oneness has to be absolutely unlike our concept of oneness for there to be truly none like Him. In fact the preexistence Jesus mentioned this about himself in the OT, as well as the Father and Holy Spirit too. Where?

Isa 43:10 "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me."

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isa 45:21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.

And in the New which matches the Old in Isa 45:22-23 in:

Philippians 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Problem is for oneness folks is that they do not understand monogenese or that the the Messiah spoken of in the Bible (OT) would be God himself, joining with Humanity as a son of man so we can become his adopted sons and daughters of God. Oneness folks do take the bible concerning Jesus illiterately... y:-?

God did say this - "Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.." For that to remain true for the unchanging God who keeps his word and lies not would mean that by creating another in flesh that would be worshiped and extolled as equal with God even in heaven as Rev 5:12-13 would be contradictory to God's own word spoken long ago. It stands to reason that Jesus is God manifest in Human Flesh because only God can save from sins. Jesus spoke of this in Isaiah and the Prophets and even in the Torah...

Bible quotes form NASB and NKJV
For what you say to be true would prove that God made a logical contradiction and thus proves himself false to his own words, oaths, promises and thus not God supreme.

Isaiah 43:10 would not be true: "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." NASB

Nether would Deut 4:35, Deut 4:39, Isa 44:8, Isa 42:8

...Isa 45:6, Isa 46:8,9, Deut 32:4, Deut 32:31, Psa 18:31

...Isa 37:16, Isa 37:20, Isa 43:10-11, Isa 45:6, Isa 45:21-22, Deut 32:39

Please notice this that YHWH Lord is mentioned three times:

Isa 33:22 For the our judge, The LORD is our lawgiver, The LORD is our king; He will save us

It is obvious that the YHWH is speaking in these verses...

Isa 48:16, 17 "Come near to Me, listen to this: From the first I have not spoken in secret, From the time it took place, I was there. And now the Lord GOD has sent Me, and His Spirit." 17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you to profit, Who leads you in the way you should go."

Adoni YHWH (Father) has sent Me (Pre-incarnate Jesus), and His Spirit (Holy Spirit). Then in verse 17, the one speaking, Jesus the Son says: "I am the LORD your God, who teaches you to profit, Who leads you in the way you should go...

He identifies Himself as the only redeemer and YHWH humanities Elohim (the Plural Majestic One). Jesus is known as the Redeemer in Christianity and ancient Yahwist Trinitarian Judaism which the OT was written...

Dominic, your doctrine violates what God says about himself and seeks to pit and play God's own character attributes against each other. This is very dangerous. I would burn your JW NWT and invest in the NASB and take a few classes as I suggested...

Cannot you see how your interpretation of of Col 1:15 and Col 2:9 is in error as it violates what God speaks and says about himself as revealed within the scriptures?
--[/quote

Well you are wrong again...I did not take Col 1:15 from the NWT..I took it from the King James...ISBN 9789868522312 and it says the same thing that is in the NWT...what you teach violates Gods word.

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Re: Did God come to earth in the flesh?

#36

Post by SeekingSanctuary » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:36 am

Domenic wrote:
SeekingSanctuary wrote:
Domenic wrote:
SeekingSanctuary wrote:You never did get back to me, Dom, so I'll ask you one of my two questions again.

Dom, how do you decide what you think is inspired by God and what do you think isn't?

I ask because before you've mentioned that you do not believe the letters of Paul were inspired by God. Yet, so far, the main thing you're using to support your beliefs is a single verse in one those very letters.

Do you feel that Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, or the Book of Revelations are Inspired Texts?
i don't like to cover the same ground twice...you will find your answer on the thread..."Your time on Patmos"
Yes, and I found out historians have contention over the book of Revelations, that reading prophecies that have already been fulfilled is good for my faith, and that the Bible was badly put together (yet we should still have faith in), nothing that answers my root question.

How do you decide what you think is inspired by God and what isn't?

Also, how do you feel about the other books I mentioned? You say to test everything, but test them against what?
Why do you ask me these questions? Jesus is our teacher...it is him you should be asking. If you are looking to have a Bible study, there are many on this forum that will help you.
I ask because you seem to lack consistency. You claim the letters aren't inspired, but they are your primary sources of verses to back up your religious views. I may be wrong, perhaps there is something about your views you haven't shared that makes everything you've said fit together, but for me to know that you have to actually talk to me.

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Re: Did God come to earth in the flesh?

#37

Post by B. W. » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:37 am

Dominic the evidence is overwhelming - your are in error.

Cannot you see how your interpretation of of Col 1:15 and Col 2:9 is in error as it violates what God speaks and says about himself as revealed within the scriptures?

Col 1:15 the word is monogenes - which refers to one of a kind - unique - one and only who has all authority over all the universe because the one and only one created it... as the context says and continuity of the scriptures verify.

You suggest that God made another god, when God himself states clearly that is something he will never do. You cannot escape this, Dominic.

Archaic Biblical Hebrew had approx 8,000 to 10,000 words. Our English uses approx 500,000 words. Ancient Hebrew writers used the same word many times to express different things. Such is the use of gods (Elohim) when refering to human judges, rulers, sent to exercise justice as God representatives. Not that these folks are gods as God is. Not at all. They did not have all the words we use to express certain ideas rather they used the context to indicates this...
-
-
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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Re: Did God come to earth in the flesh?

#38

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jul 16, 2014 7:41 am

Well you are wrong again...I did not take Col 1:15 from the NWT..I took it from the King James...ISBN 9789868522312 and it says the same thing that is in the NWT...what you teach violates Gods word.
Incorrect, here is the KJV of that verse:


13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


Dominic,
You are obviously trying to get people to follow JW doctrine, it is quite clear regardless of how much you say you are not.
That is unacceptable here and now you try to mislead us with the written word of God.

Here are ALL the versions of Colossians 1:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.c ... es_1108016

NOT ONE of them shows "other" and you will not find it anywhere other than the NWT.

I think we have all had enough of this.

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Re: Did God come to earth in the flesh?

#39

Post by Domenic » Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:04 am

Please explain Paul. what is the difference between every, and all?

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creature:

it is you who are trying to change Gods word. I don't know what they did to you as a JW, but scripture are scripture no matter if a person is a JW, of whatever...All, and Every in this scripture have the same meaning. I gave you the ISBN of the King James...IT SAYS OTHER, but it would not matter if it said ALL...it's the same meaning. What are you trying to do?

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Re: Did God come to earth in the flesh?

#40

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:08 am

Domenic wrote:Please explain Paul. what is the difference between every, and all?

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creature:

it is you who are trying to change Gods word. I don't know what they did to you as a JW, but scripture are scripture no matter if a person is a JW, of whatever...All, and Every in this scripture have the same meaning. I gave you the ISBN of the King James...IT SAYS OTHER, but it would not matter if it said ALL...it's the same meaning. What are you trying to do?
Domenic, it is clear to us that you are trying to peddle JW doctrines here, that is unacceptable.
It has been shown over and over that there is no "OTHER" in Colossians Verse 16.
That you refuse to admit this and try to pass off the KJV as the NWT is unacceptable.

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Re: Did God come to earth in the flesh?

#41

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:13 am

An FYI to all:
Domenic has been banned for trying to cause dissent amongst Us (in another tread), for trying to preach the JW doctrine under false pretenses ( saying he isn't when he clearly is) and for passing off the NWT translations a KJV.

Please understand that we do NOT do this lightly and have one so after quite a few days of discussion over this.
We do this with a heavy heart BUT believe we are correct in our actions.

Thank you for your understanding.

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Re: Did God come to earth in the flesh?

#42

Post by SeekingSanctuary » Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:44 am

Is this a permanent ban or a temporary one?

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Re: Did God come to earth in the flesh?

#43

Post by 1over137 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:17 am

SeekingSanctuary wrote:Is this a permanent ban or a temporary one?
1 month ban
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Did God come to earth in the flesh?

#44

Post by B. W. » Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:18 am

SeekingSanctuary wrote:Is this a permanent ban or a temporary one?
Temporary...
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Re: Did God come to earth in the flesh?

#45

Post by B. W. » Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:33 am

From the AMG word Dictionary concerning the word used in Col 1:15 - every-all - what it means.
Strongs Number - Greek word 3956

πάς

All - every

(I) Includes the idea of oneness, a totality or the whole, the same as hólos (Greek 3650), the whole.
The word following is creation. therefore, He is supreme over all Creation just as the CJB translates: "He is the visible image of the invisible God. He is supreme over all creation...," Col 1:15 CJB (Complete Jewish Bible) as that is a more accurate translation of this text.

Col 1:15-17,
"He is the visible image of the invisible God. He is supreme over all creation, 16 because in connection with him were created all things — in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, lordships, rulers or authorities — they have all been created through him and for him. 17 He existed before all things, and he holds everything together." CJB

Col 2:8-10, "Watch out, so that no one will take you captive by means of philosophy and empty deceit, following human tradition which accords with the elemental spirits of the world but does not accord with the Messiah.

"9 For in him, bodily, lives the fullness of all that God is.

"10 And it is in union with him that you have been made full — he is the head of every rule and authority.
" CJB

Bottom line - the NWT of the JW's is error designed to separate it followers from all friends, family, and all Christian contact from the JW works salvation party line. Please don't fall for it. That is one bible that needs to be burned in my opinion.
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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