There is no Trinity

Discussions about the Bible, and any issues raised by Scripture.
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vanquish29
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There is no Trinity

#1

Post by vanquish29 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 2:27 am

Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethic, James Hastings, Trinity, p.461 "At first the Christian faith was not Trinitarian . . . It was not so in the apostolic and sub-apostolic ages, as reflected in the N[ew] T[estament] and other early Christian writings."-Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics. (ti pp. 6-7)

Origin and Evolution of Religion "Yale University professor E. Washburn Hopkins affirmed: "To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . . they say nothing about it."-Origin and Evolution of Religion." (ti p.6)


Encyclopedia of the Holy Trinity The Catholic work Trinitas-A Theological Encyclopedia of the Holy Trinity, for example, notes that some of Tertullian's words were later used by others to describe the Trinity. Then it cautions: "But hasty conclusions cannot be drawn from usage, for he does not apply the words to Trinitarian theology." (ti pp.5-6)

"The Catholic Encyclopedia also comments: "In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word ????? [tri´as] (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180. . . . Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian."" (ti p.5)


"The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the fourth century. . . . Among the apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective." -New Catholic Encyclopedia." Should You Believe in the Trinity? p.7


The Triune God, Edward Fortman "Jesuit Fortman states: "The New Testament writers . . . give us no formal or formulated doctrine of the Trinity, no explicit teaching that in one God there are three co-equal divine persons. . . . Nowhere do we find any trinitarian doctrine of three distinct subjects of divine life and activity in the same Godhead."" (ti p.6)


e Encyclopedia Americana "The Encyclopedia Americana notes that the doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be 'beyond the grasp of human reason." (ti p.4)

New Catholic Encyclopedia - p.306 "And the New Catholic Encyclopedia also says: "And the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the O[ld] T[estament]."" (ti p.6)

History of the Trinity
development of the Trinity when giving the impression it was not believed by early Christians, but introduced centuries later by Constantine.

"Another fabrication, concocted centuries later, is the doctrine of the so-called holy Trinity." Watchtower 2006 Dec 1 p.6

"Also, whereas several Eastern churches were inclined to follow Arius, who denied the Trinity doctrine, Rome quickly adopted this pagan idea of a triune god. On both of these matters, Emperor Constantine came out in favor of Rome. This he did by making a Sunday observance law in 321 C.E. and by imposing the Trinity at the Council of Nicaea in 325 C.E. He fused apostate Christianity with the pagan Roman cult and made this "universal" or "catholic" form of worship the state religion." Watchtower 1983 Sep 15 pp.7-8


Justin Martyr, who died about 165 C.E., called the prehuman Jesus a created angel who is "other than the God who made all things." He said that Jesus was inferior to God and "never did anything except what the Creator . . . willed him to do and say."
Irenaeus, who died about 200 C.E., said that the prehuman Jesus had a separate existence from God and was inferior to him. He showed that Jesus is not equal to the "One true and only God," who is "supreme over all, and besides whom there is no other."
Clement of Alexandria, who died about 215 C.E., called God "the uncreated and imperishable and only true God." He said that the Son "is next to the only omnipotent Father" but not equal to him.
Tertullian, who died about 230 C.E., taught the supremacy of God. He observed: "The Father is different from the Son (another), as he is greater; as he who begets is different from him who is begotten; he who sends, different from him who is sent." He also said: "There was a time when the Son was not. . . . Before all things, God was alone."
Hippolytus, who died about 235 C.E., said that God is "the one God, the first and the only One, the Maker and Lord of all," who "had nothing co-eval [of equal age] with him . . . But he was One, alone by himself; who, willing it, called into being what had no being before," such as the created prehuman Jesus.
Origen, who died about 250 C.E., said that "the Father and Son are two substances . . . two things as to their essence," and that "compared with the Father, [the Son] is a very small light."
Thus, the testimony of the Bible and of history makes clear that the Trinity was unknown throughout Biblical times and for several centuries thereafter." Should You Believe in the Trinity? p.7

Justin Martyr, who died about 165 C.E., called the prehuman Jesus a created angel who is “other than the God who made all things.” He said that Jesus was inferior to God and “never did anything except what the Creator…willed him to do and say.”

Irenaeus, who died about 200 C.E., said that the prehuman Jesus had a separate existence from God and was inferior to him. He showed that Jesus is not equal to the “One true and only God,” who is “supreme over all, and besides whom there is no other.”

Clement of Alexandria, who died about 215 C.E., called Jesus in his prehuman existence “a creature” but called God “the uncreated and imperishable and only true God.” He said that the Son “is next to the only omnipotent Father” but not equal to him.

Tertullian, who died about 230 C.E., taught the supremacy of God. He observed: “The Father is different from the Son (another), as he is greater; as he who begets is different from him who is begotten; he who sends, different from him who is sent.” He also said: “There was a time when the Son was not….Before all things, God was alone.” (The word “tri'as” appears in its Latin form of “trinitas” in Tertullian. While these words do translate to “Trinity,” this is no proof in itself that Tertullian taught the doctrine of the Trinity.)

Hippolytus, who died about 235 C.E., said that God is “the one God, the first and the only One, the Maker and Lord of all,” who “had nothing co-eval [of equal age] with him….But he was One, alone by himself; who, willing it, called into being what had no being before,” such as the created prehuman Jesus.

Origen, who died about 250 C.E., said that “the Father and Son are two substances…two things as to their essence,” and that “compared with the Father, [the Son] is a very small light.”

The testimony of history makes clear that the Trinity was unknown for several centuries after biblical times. Thus, those who believe in the Trinity are not “holding God in accurate knowledge.”

Soon, when God brings this present wicked system of things to its end, Trinitarian Christendom will be called to account. And she will be judged adversely for her God-dishonoring actions and doctrines. By honoring God as supreme and worshiping him on his terms, can u avoid the judgment that he will soon bring on apostate Christendom.

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Re: There is no Trinity

#2

Post by neo-x » Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:46 am

hmm, so you don't believe that Christ is God?
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


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Re: There is no Trinity

#3

Post by RickD » Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:38 am

neo-x wrote:hmm, so you don't believe that Christ is God?
Neo,
From vanquish's post on this thread, it seems vanquish does hold to the trinity.

Maybe vanquish is just playing(devil's advocate) with himself. :lol:
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

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Re: There is no Trinity

#4

Post by vanquish29 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:59 pm

ha ha ha ha yes i do believe in the trinity rickd called me on on it im just playing lol but there are anti trinity quotes that people will use to tell christians that the trinity is false, im waiting for a angry christian to get all of these quotes refuted if they in fact love christ and his deity, i have several more anti trinity quotes, which focus on christ human side and not his divine side as the word, some of these quotes do come from early church fathers i think as christians we should address them.

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Re: There is no Trinity

#5

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:31 am

vanquish29 wrote:ha ha ha ha yes i do believe in the trinity rickd called me on on it im just playing lol but there are anti trinity quotes that people will use to tell christians that the trinity is false, im waiting for a angry christian to get all of these quotes refuted if they in fact love christ and his deity, i have several more anti trinity quotes, which focus on christ human side and not his divine side as the word, some of these quotes do come from early church fathers i think as christians we should address them.
The Trinity does NOT make the statement that Son and Father are EQUAL in authority, only in Nature.
My father and I are both human, but as my Father, He has authority over me ( to a certain degree).

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Re: There is no Trinity

#6

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:33 am

And the Ancient writers that suggest that there was a point "in time" where God was alone, without THE SON, suggest that based on their incorrect understanding.
They are simply wrong when they say this and there is no passage in Scripture that states there was a time when Father, Son and HS did NOT co-exist.
"In the beginning there was the Word..."

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Re: There is no Trinity

#7

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:38 am

Here is my issue with a "lone" God.
If there was only God in the sense of only The creator God, then there was a time when he was NOT a creator or Father.
If He was a lone and solitary being, then, for some reason, He decided to beget a Son AND then create the universe, yes?
WHY?
If He was truly God he would have no need or want to do that, if he had a need or want, then he was not God.
If he was God then He must have been the absolute expression of LOVE, but He was alone and had no one to love, then his love would have been a selfish love a self-centered love and that would make him inferior and not God ( self-centered love is inferior to other-centered love).

Anything other than a relational God would NOT be God.

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Re: There is no Trinity

#8

Post by Gman » Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:27 pm

If you don't believe in the Trinity, then you are going to have problems with the Bible. Jesus IS G-d...

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/trinity.html
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Re: There is no Trinity

#9

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:00 am

Gman wrote:If you don't believe in the Trinity, then you are going to have problems with the Bible. Jesus IS G-d...

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/trinity.html
The issue with that statement for non-trinitarians has always been what does that mean? Jesus is God?
How can Jesus be God if Jesus says that He is returning to His father and our father, His God and our God?
If Jesus is God, then is he return to himself ??

The above is a typical of the kind of issue a non-trinitarian would raise to the statement that Jesus is God.

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Re: There is no Trinity

#10

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:02 am

And answering with "proof texts" doesn't work because for every text that implies that Jesus is God, there is a text that implies that God is not Jesus, as the one above does.

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Re: There is no Trinity

#11

Post by Revolutionary » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:49 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
vanquish29 wrote:ha ha ha ha yes i do believe in the trinity rickd called me on on it im just playing lol but there are anti trinity quotes that people will use to tell christians that the trinity is false, im waiting for a angry christian to get all of these quotes refuted if they in fact love christ and his deity, i have several more anti trinity quotes, which focus on christ human side and not his divine side as the word, some of these quotes do come from early church fathers i think as christians we should address them.
The Trinity does NOT make the statement that Son and Father are EQUAL in authority, only in Nature.
My father and I are both human, but as my Father, He has authority over me ( to a certain degree).
A true teacher/father only seeks to offer it's knowledge to it's pupil/child, in the knowledge that they will expand upon it within their individual vision that the teacher/father could have never fathomed.... Their is no authority in such a gift of expression, with the simple knowledge that the individual that it is given to, will return the given inspiration by expanding the scope of it's vision.

Love does not need to indulge in a position of authority, it pushes an individual to see it's unequaled beauty!

If you see your father as having authority over you, he has failed to show you what it is to be humbled by the expression of beauty, yours included!

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Re: There is no Trinity

#12

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:59 pm

Revolutionary wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
vanquish29 wrote:ha ha ha ha yes i do believe in the trinity rickd called me on on it im just playing lol but there are anti trinity quotes that people will use to tell christians that the trinity is false, im waiting for a angry christian to get all of these quotes refuted if they in fact love christ and his deity, i have several more anti trinity quotes, which focus on christ human side and not his divine side as the word, some of these quotes do come from early church fathers i think as christians we should address them.
The Trinity does NOT make the statement that Son and Father are EQUAL in authority, only in Nature.
My father and I are both human, but as my Father, He has authority over me ( to a certain degree).
A true teacher/father only seeks to offer it's knowledge to it's pupil/child, in the knowledge that they will expand upon it within their individual vision that the teacher/father could have never fathomed.... Their is no authority in such a gift of expression, with the simple knowledge that the individual that it is given to, will return the given inspiration by expanding the scope of it's vision.

Love does not need to indulge in a position of authority, it pushes an individual to see it's unequaled beauty!

If you see your father as having authority over you, he has failed to show you what it is to be humbled by the expression of beauty, yours included!

Honestly....I must be writing in German or something...sheesh !

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Re: There is no Trinity

#13

Post by RickD » Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:23 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Revolutionary wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
vanquish29 wrote:ha ha ha ha yes i do believe in the trinity rickd called me on on it im just playing lol but there are anti trinity quotes that people will use to tell christians that the trinity is false, im waiting for a angry christian to get all of these quotes refuted if they in fact love christ and his deity, i have several more anti trinity quotes, which focus on christ human side and not his divine side as the word, some of these quotes do come from early church fathers i think as christians we should address them.
The Trinity does NOT make the statement that Son and Father are EQUAL in authority, only in Nature.
My father and I are both human, but as my Father, He has authority over me ( to a certain degree).
A true teacher/father only seeks to offer it's knowledge to it's pupil/child, in the knowledge that they will expand upon it within their individual vision that the teacher/father could have never fathomed.... Their is no authority in such a gift of expression, with the simple knowledge that the individual that it is given to, will return the given inspiration by expanding the scope of it's vision.

Love does not need to indulge in a position of authority, it pushes an individual to see it's unequaled beauty!

If you see your father as having authority over you, he has failed to show you what it is to be humbled by the expression of beauty, yours included!

Honestly....I must be writing in German or something...sheesh !
No, but I'm guessing you don't speak new age mumbo jumbo.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: There is no Trinity

#14

Post by B. W. » Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:25 pm

RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Revolutionary wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
vanquish29 wrote:ha ha ha ha yes i do believe in the trinity rickd called me on on it im just playing lol but there are anti trinity quotes that people will use to tell christians that the trinity is false, im waiting for a angry christian to get all of these quotes refuted if they in fact love christ and his deity, i have several more anti trinity quotes, which focus on christ human side and not his divine side as the word, some of these quotes do come from early church fathers i think as christians we should address them.
The Trinity does NOT make the statement that Son and Father are EQUAL in authority, only in Nature.
My father and I are both human, but as my Father, He has authority over me ( to a certain degree).
A true teacher/father only seeks to offer it's knowledge to it's pupil/child, in the knowledge that they will expand upon it within their individual vision that the teacher/father could have never fathomed.... Their is no authority in such a gift of expression, with the simple knowledge that the individual that it is given to, will return the given inspiration by expanding the scope of it's vision.

Love does not need to indulge in a position of authority, it pushes an individual to see it's unequaled beauty!

If you see your father as having authority over you, he has failed to show you what it is to be humbled by the expression of beauty, yours included!

Honestly....I must be writing in German or something...sheesh !
No, but I'm guessing you don't speak new age mumbo jumbo.
All da wurld needs is Love - luv -- wuv

What kind though? Eros - Storge - Phileo - Agape???

All different kinds of Love out there in the world - how would Revolutionary define his concept of love?
-
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

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Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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Re: There is no Trinity

#15

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:36 am

Nope, me no habla new age mumbo-jumbo.

The point, which I thought was obvious, is that position of authority has nothing to do with the divine nature that The Father and The Son shared.

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