The Law

[Gman]

True to a point, but what really keeps us is G-d's Spirit. Most of our brothers and sisters don't keep Torah, and yet have the Spirit, and G-d does awesome things through them. We can't argue with the Spirit, even if we advocate the view that Torah is still G-d's way of life He wishes us to live by.

Yes, Judging others is ultimately left to G-d Himself.. Not us.

Well, then wouldn't you say, with that way of seeing it, that it'd be a bit misleading to call Him a Jew, considering you see Him as no more of a Jew then He is a Goy?

I'm not talking about someone who is ethnically Jewish. I tend to look at Jewishness that transcends physical boundaries. Of course G-d in heaven doesn't wear a Tallit or Phylacteries or is circumcised. That isn't the point I'm making.

Some may not like the idea of Yeshua being Jewish, but I think we can agree that nobody on this forum has given this impression. Nobody here is anti-semitic.

Most aren't... I never stated that. But there is still much ignorance to the Jewishness of Christ.... Many people are terrified to keep G-d's laws thinking it's some legalistic Jewish curse. Perhaps that will change later when more of us Yeshua Torah freaks like you and me come around and help open peoples eyes..

All I know is that I'm not eating pork ever again..

[RickD]

Gman the Self-proclaimed Yeshua Torah freak wrote:
All I know is that I'm not eating pork ever again..

Real men love bacon. Take off the skirt and grab some delicious bacon.

[Gman]

Gman the Self-proclaimed Yeshua Torah freak wrote:
All I know is that I'm not eating pork ever again..

Real men love bacon. Take off the skirt and grab some delicious bacon.

You can have my portion amigo... Canadian bacon anyone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86KFojFZ7WI

[neo-x]

Of course G-d has Jewish roots... Actually I think it's cool that G-d is a Jew... Amen. I really don't understand what all this fuss is about Yeshua being a Jew. Of course He was Jew... Who cares about that? Big deal.

God has Jewish roots? way to go G.
Explain how God the faher, has Jewish roots?

God is a Jew?

And I do not understand the fuss either, Christ was born in human form, we are told to remember that. Not his Jewishness. And you are making a big deal out of it. I am saying if he was born in a temporary body, which came from Jewish parents. That only makes him Jew on the time he spent on earth. When you say God is Jew, well you are saying something else entirely. G, I get it you love messianic Judaism despite you not being a Jew. I respect that, but that is no license to make false claims. If you are being insistent upon his Jewishness I do not think how that benefits anyone, except those who want to live by and under the Torah.

I have nothing against Jews Cheezrox. But claims like these tend to distract the point which we all are called to be one with that is in Christ, it means nothing to be a Jew or gentile. The point is that God loved us, always.

[RickD]

Gman the Self-proclaimed Yeshua Torah freak wrote:
All I know is that I'm not eating pork ever again..

Real men love bacon. Take off the skirt and grab some delicious bacon.

You can have my portion amigo... Canadian bacon anyone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86KFojFZ7WI

Gman, that's the third time you posted that pig video. I think you have some kind of strange pig fetish. Has anyone seen the movie Deliverance?

[PaulSacramento]

When asked for general guidelines, Yeshua most certainly went to the Big 10 right away, because they're very central to the basic moral ideas of Torah; which is also the reason why He constantly went to the Sh'ma (Deut 6:4 "Hear, Israel, HaShem is our G-d, HaShem is One. And you shall love HaShem your G-d with all your heart, all your soul, and all your might...") and the law to love one's neighbor as himself (Leviticus 19:18). But to say He never mentioned anything outside of (some) of the 10 isn't true.

Matthew 5:18-9
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Torah until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teachs others to do the same, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven."

Matthew 23:23
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the Torah: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others."

Also, in the ruling of the Jerusalem council's ruling, aren't the prohibitions of eating blood and things strangled commandments in the Torah? And don't you think it'd be strange to make those 4 rules the only rules to "burden" the Gentile believers with? Doesn't it make more sense that they were just practical, contemporary rules to ensure fellowship in the new-born Christian family, because as obvious from the believing Pharisees' statement in verse 5, many of the Jewish believers (who were the first believers and the majority at that time) were uncomfortable with all these Gentiles coming to the faith, because their towns were centered around temples where sacrifices were made to idols, and there were temple prostitutes? Yet, these temples were also where the banks were and where business transactions were made, and where meat was bought. So, these 4 laws make MUCH more sense as being a ruling on how to preserve unity and fellowship in the Body, as opposed to the 4 specific commandments given to the Gentiles as opposed to the rest of the laws apparently given only to the Jews. Note also verse 21, which says, "For Moshe from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Shabbat." This certainly gives the impression that they expected these new Gentile believers to get their moralty and guidance from the Scriptures; the Torah; through fellowship with the already existing believers, as opposed to these four, simple rules that don't touch much on morality.

We are on a tricky slope there.
First off, we have internal warning in the bible about the Law being "compromised":
Jeremiah 8:8 and Ezekiel 20:25
Second Christ and his apostles after Him did annul some of the Torah.
In regards to ACTS, that they made it clear WHICH of the Laws that were in question should be followed is clear ( Paul echos this in Romans) and whether or not the anything was read in the synagouges every shabbat was irrelevant to gentiles that were NOT allowed in those synagouges anyways ( as Jews that became Christians afterwards were even expelled from them).

The gentiles were being taught morals BEYOND the ones that already had and they were being taught by the apostles and the representatives of the apostles ( Elders and deacons), if the council didn't touch on morality it was because THAT wasn't an issue ( outside of fornication of course).

[B. W.]

Of course G-d has Jewish roots... Actually I think it's cool that G-d is a Jew... Amen. I really don't understand what all this fuss is about Yeshua being a Jew. Of course He was Jew... Who cares about that? Big deal.

God has Jewish roots? way to go G.
Explain how God the faher, has Jewish roots?

God is a Jew?

And I do not understand the fuss either, Christ was born in human form, we are told to remember that. Not his Jewishness. And you are making a big deal out of it. I am saying if he was born in a temporary body, which came from Jewish parents. That only makes him Jew on the time he spent on earth. When you say God is Jew, well you are saying something else entirely. G, I get it you love messianic Judaism despite you not being a Jew. I respect that, but that is no license to make false claims. If you are being insistent upon his Jewishness I do not think how that benefits anyone, except those who want to live by and under the Torah.

I have nothing against Jews Cheezrox. But claims like these tend to distract the point which we all are called to be one with that is in Christ, it means nothing to be a Jew or gentile. The point is that God loved us, always.

Gal 3:28 NKJV "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Abram was first a gentile, a pagan, whose pagan religion was the moon god religion ... think about it...

John 8:36, "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed." NASB

The Lord is in the business to set captives free...

Col 3:11 NKJV, "...where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. 12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; 13 bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do. 14 But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection. 15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. ."

I find that in the NT, it tells us to put on love as the bond of perfection (teleiótētos - the goal we are to reach). Next - that bond does not come thru the Torah but rather thru Christ alone. The Torah refers 'to the sign that points to light' and not the light itself. That Light has come and that Light is Christ. John 1:5, 14 - John 8:12.

The Torah was only a sign pointing to our need for the Light of Christ... Gal 3:24

Also so note - Rom 3:20 and Gal 2:16
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[KBCid]

Of course G-d has Jewish roots... Actually I think it's cool that G-d is a Jew... Amen. I really don't understand what all this fuss is about Yeshua being a Jew. Of course He was Jew... Who cares about that? Big deal.

God has Jewish roots? way to go G. Explain how God the faher, has Jewish roots? God is a Jew?

Yes. I am not G but I can explain it. Everything that was caused by God has for its root cause... God.

You can follow the logic of this by answering these two questions;

Where did Jews come from?

"According to traditional Jewish Law, a Jew is anyone born of a Jewish mother or converted to Judaism in accordance with Jewish Law."
"Jews are an ethnoreligious group[15] and include those born Jewish and converts to Judaism."
"Judaism claims a historical continuity spanning more than 3,000 years. Of the major world religions, Judaism is considered one of the oldest monotheistic religions.[9][10] The Hebrews / Israelites were already referred to as "Jews" in later books of the Tanakh such as the Book of Esther, with the term Jews replacing the title "Children of Israel"."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism

Why did they come to exist?
They among all the peoples in existence at that time were chosen... by God to be a peculiar people, a light to the nations;

Isa 49:5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
Isa 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Isa 51:1-2 Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged. Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.

Isa 51:4 Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.

sa 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

The Jews became jewish after they began to interact with God. God is the root cause for why they exist. Spiritual israel is Jewish by its inntended meaning. To be Jewish as it was intended was to live in accordance with God and not in opposition. The Jewish people were to exemplify to all the nations around them a message from their maker.

I made you.
I know how to govern you.
I know the only proper way to co-exist
If you believe in me and these truths and you do your best to exist according to them then, I will help you and allow you to continue to exist with me. However, If you don't honor the fact that I made you or you don't honor how I govern you or don't honor how I define you to co-exist then You will cease to exist in time.

Ultimately, a very basic reality between cause and effect. We are an effect and if we don't believe and have faith in our cause then why should our cause continue to allow us to exist?

[neo-x]

They among all the peoples in existence at that time were chosen... by God to be a peculiar people, a light to the nations;
...The Jewish people were to exemplify to all the nations around them a message from their maker.

O they are doing a great job at being the light of the world and especially being an example to follow in the world today... Somehow I am not impressed and I find it least Christian at times.

The Jews became jewish after they began to interact with God. God is the root cause for why they exist. Spiritual israel is Jewish by its inntended meaning. To be Jewish as it was intended was to live in accordance with God and not in opposition. The Jewish people were to exemplify to all the nations around them a message from their maker.

But all of this does not make God Jewish, I hope you can realize at some point later, the theological blunder you guys are making here.

[RickD]

1). Jesus was Jewish
2). Jesus is God
Therefore:
3). God is Jewish

And

1). Mary is Jesus' Mother
2). Jesus is God
Therefore
3). Mary is the Mother of God


This is where the confusion lies. These both seem logical, but are they really?

[cheezerrox]

I'm not talking about someone who is ethnically Jewish. I tend to look at Jewishness that transcends physical boundaries. Of course G-d in heaven doesn't wear a Tallit or Phylacteries or is circumcised. That isn't the point I'm making.

I understand. Jewishness transcends physical boundaries in the sense that it's a culture, and makes someone a member of a nation chosen by G-d to be a light to the nations, but it's still only an attribute that has to do with ethnicity/religion/culture. I don't think these kinds of things can be placed on G-d because G-d's above them.

Most aren't... I never stated that. But there is still much ignorance to the Jewishness of Christ.... Many people are terrified to keep G-d's laws thinking it's some legalistic Jewish curse. Perhaps that will change later when more of us Yeshua Torah freaks like you and me come around and help open peoples eyes..

All I know is that I'm not eating pork ever again..

I guess it sounded like you were claiming Neo and possibly others were antisemitic in some way. I was just pointing out that neither he nor anyone else on the forum has said anything to indicate they have a problem with Yeshua's Jewishness. And lol, I agree that we as followers of Christ and keepers of Torah (or Yeshua Torah freaks, if you prefer, I suppose) have an obligation to share our views with our fellow believers and to do our best to clarify why we believe what we believe and why we do what we do. And as far as eating pork and the like, we must follow our convictions.

God has Jewish roots? way to go G.
Explain how God the faher, has Jewish roots?

God is a Jew?

And I do not understand the fuss either, Christ was born in human form, we are told to remember that. Not his Jewishness. And you are making a big deal out of it. I am saying if he was born in a temporary body, which came from Jewish parents. That only makes him Jew on the time he spent on earth. When you say God is Jew, well you are saying something else entirely. G, I get it you love messianic Judaism despite you not being a Jew. I respect that, but that is no license to make false claims. If you are being insistent upon his Jewishness I do not think how that benefits anyone, except those who want to live by and under the Torah.

I have nothing against Jews Cheezrox. But claims like these tend to distract the point which we all are called to be one with that is in Christ, it means nothing to be a Jew or gentile. The point is that God loved us, always.

I think what G is trying to say is that the fact that G-d chose to be incarnated as a Jewish man was and is significant, and since He was risen again physically and is still in His (now glorified, spiritual) body, He is still Jewish. I personally don't agree with calling G-d a Jew, though, at all.

And Neo, my point was that I was saying you DON'T have anything against Jews. I was trying to make sure G realized that you (and anyone else who doesn't agree with Messianic theology) aren't antisemitic or afraid of Jews or anything like that. Sorry if there was any confusion, I wasn't accusing you of anything, brother.

We are on a tricky slope there.
First off, we have internal warning in the bible about the Law being "compromised":
Jeremiah 8:8 and Ezekiel 20:25
Second Christ and his apostles after Him did annul some of the Torah.
In regards to ACTS, that they made it clear WHICH of the Laws that were in question should be followed is clear ( Paul echos this in Romans) and whether or not the anything was read in the synagouges every shabbat was irrelevant to gentiles that were NOT allowed in those synagouges anyways ( as Jews that became Christians afterwards were even expelled from them).

The gentiles were being taught morals BEYOND the ones that already had and they were being taught by the apostles and the representatives of the apostles ( Elders and deacons), if the council didn't touch on morality it was because THAT wasn't an issue ( outside of fornication of course).

Jeremiah 8:8 doesn't say anything about Torah being compromised, it criticises people for not being true to it. Ezekiel 20:25 on the other hand could possibly be interpreted as Torah being compromised if taken on its own, but that for one would go against the rest of Old Testament Scripture, and for two doesn't make sense in its context, because earlier in that passage G-d says that He ordered the children of Israel not to walk in the statutes and ordinances of their fathers (verse 18), and instead "be careful to observe My ordinances by which, if a man observes them, he will live." So it wouldn't make sense for Him then to say that those very same statutes and ordinances weren't good and by which they could NOT live.

And Yeshua never annulled any of the Torah. I would defy you or anyone else to find an example of that. And the apostles didn't either, unless you can't circumcision, but that was a specific commandment set aside for Gentiles for important theological reasons. It's the only commandment specificly set aside as a requirement.
And in Acts they weren't picking and choosing which laws to follow out of Torah. On the other hand, it says in Acts 21:20 that "thousands" of Jews who were coming to faith in Christ and were still "zealous for the Law," and it goes on to say in verses 21-24 that although some had claimed that Paul was preaching against keeping Torah, there was "nothing to the things which they" said, and that Paul "walk[ed] orderly, keeping the Law."

And Gentiles may have gotten kicked out of synagogues at some point, all of the early believers (who were mostly Jewished) met mainly in the synagogues and Temple for worship. At the beginning, if the Gentile believers first started joining them, there probably wouldn't be much fuss about the Gentiles came to the synagogues, although they weren't allowed in the Temple. Even so, the believers met in their own congregations as well and read the Scriptures (and Torah) together, and some synagogues surely turned Messianic during the rapid spreading of the faith during those times.

The Gentiles were surely taught morals beyond the Scriptures, taking also from the teachings of the Messiah, but they were still rooted in Scripture, and did not replace Scripture; they only supplemented it. The council was about division in the Body between Jews and Gentiles, so it focused on that issue specifically, and whether Gentiles had to become Jews or not. They decided they didn't, and came up with rules for Gentiles to follow to make it clear that they were separated from the pagan element that their culture was so inundated with.

[neo-x]

I think what G is trying to say is that the fact that G-d chose to be incarnated as a Jewish man was and is significant, and since He was risen again physically and is still in His (now glorified, spiritual) body, He is still Jewish. I personally don't agree with calling G-d a Jew, though, at all.

And Neo, my point was that I was saying you DON'T have anything against Jews. I was trying to make sure G realized that you (and anyone else who doesn't agree with Messianic theology) aren't antisemitic or afraid of Jews or anything like that. Sorry if there was any confusion, I wasn't accusing you of anything, brother.

Thank you for your kind words brother. I really appreciate it. And no, I did not take any offence at all. the only thing I found insulting was G's comment that actually got personal "Don't worry.. I know you are frightened by Jews.. There is nothing to get worried about. In the end they will be your best friends..". I just do not think that my convictions here matter anything at all. The point was theological not anti-semitic.

I am tired of arguing on this to be honest. Despite my honest and sincere intentions, I do not believe I am getting through to G or Kb. Calling God Jew may seem right to someone, and if it does I am no one to stop them but claiming to have theological ground on it, would need more than a view, it needs to be consistent and backed up. I find this lacking, it is just not a good theological point.

God bless you Cheez, I hope you don't take my words in the wrong light, I have always said that I have nothing against Jews nor messianic Jews, nor people who follow Torah, but I do not like to be labelled as a sinner when I eat bacon, or do not keep the Sabbath. Being Jew as inherent has no significance other than grace which God showed. Even God said in the old testament that it was not because Israel was good and strong that God chose it, it was because of his promise and grace, period. Following Torah as a life style may not be wrong at all, but insisting upon Jewishness than the message of the Gospel, may become a stumbling block for someone one. I don't think anyone would knowingly do that, but it is our little actions and words that may change lives.

I sincerely apologize to the people here who believe or practice in Torah as a lifestyle or faith, I did not mean any disrespect. I just wanted to put the theological debate straight and it is going nowhere, so I will stop here for the moment.

[PaulSacramento]

And Yeshua never annulled any of the Torah.

So all 600 + Laws are in effect?

[cheezerrox]

Thank you for your kind words brother. I really appreciate it. And no, I did not take any offence at all. the only thing I found insulting was G's comment that actually got personal "Don't worry.. I know you are frightened by Jews.. There is nothing to get worried about. In the end they will be your best friends..". I just do not think that my convictions here matter anything at all. The point was theological not anti-semitic.

I am tired of arguing on this to be honest. Despite my honest and sincere intentions, I do not believe I am getting through to G or Kb. Calling God Jew may seem right to someone, and if it does I am no one to stop them but claiming to have theological ground on it, would need more than a view, it needs to be consistent and backed up. I find this lacking, it is just not a good theological point.

God bless you Cheez, I hope you don't take my words in the wrong light, I have always said that I have nothing against Jews nor messianic Jews, nor people who follow Torah, but I do not like to be labelled as a sinner when I eat bacon, or do not keep the Sabbath. Being Jew as inherent has no significance other than grace which God showed. Even God said in the old testament that it was not because Israel was good and strong that God chose it, it was because of his promise and grace, period. Following Torah as a life style may not be wrong at all, but insisting upon Jewishness than the message of the Gospel, may become a stumbling block for someone one. I don't think anyone would knowingly do that, but it is our little actions and words that may change lives.

I sincerely apologize to the people here who believe or practice in Torah as a lifestyle or faith, I did not mean any disrespect. I just wanted to put the theological debate straight and it is going nowhere, so I will stop here for the moment.

You're welcome, my friend, and I'm tired of arguing on this topic for the same reason. I made this thread because I do love to discuss it, and I want to show other people what we as Messianics believe and why, and do so in a conversational way that allows questions and criticism so that everyone involved may be edified in some way and come out with better-informed position. But, it often ends up turning into argument instead of debate, and it gets personal sometimes, and I find it really sad that the Body for some reason cannot seem to talk about this without it turning heated.

And I understand completely that you don't like it when others label you a sinner for eating pork or not keeping Shabbat. And let me just say, that Messianics as a whole, while individuals may differ, are not out to condemn. We aren't labelling anyone more of a sinner than anyone else, or even more of a sinner than we personally are ourselves. Messianics should not be taking a "holier than thou" position, because it's just completely contrary to the Gospel and the Spirit of G-d.

The only point I would make is that Messianics are not insisting upon "Jewishness," or on the specialness of being a Jew. Many Christian brothers feel this way, and in a way I'm glad you said it because it's something I think needs to be addressed to ensure any kind of fruitful discussion on the topic. One big point that we make as Messianics is that nobody needs to become a Jew to follow Christ, and that there's nothing better about being Jewish than being a Gentile, although those of us Messianics who are Jewish may pride themselves in their Jewishness, which is fine. We stress that the Torah and Torah-living are NOT strictly JEWISH things. The Torah was given to Israel specifically, true, but it was given with the intention to bring it to the nations, the Gentiles. Israel was meant to be a light to the nations, and to draw the nations into the worship of the One G-d of Israel. The Torah is not Jewish, it is G-d's Word. That's a central part of Messianic theology, and one that is often either not communicated well, or misunderstood, or both.

No matter what, blessings to you as well Neo, and I know your heart's with the Lord.

And Yeshua never annulled any of the Torah.

So all 600 + Laws are in effect?

Yes, all commandments are in effect.

[PaulSacramento]

Yes, all commandments are in effect.

Dude...even orthodox Jews don't follow ALL of them, most would say ( and have said to me in discussion) that a large number have been "done away" as obsolete and no longer applicable.
The Torah has always been interpreted by the Jewish community and their leaders as to HOW to apply the Laws and went NOT to.
Starting for the Rabbinic times through the medieval ages, to the Jewish reformists to today.
When was the last time a Jew stoned a homosexual or a son that was rebellious?