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Job 38:14 says earth is flat?

Posted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:36 pm
by zackabba1
In Job 38:14, it says :

"The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment. (NIV)"

Now, as far as I know, when you press clay with a seal, it has a flat base and features that stand out; the Earth doesn't look like this. :|

I read somewhere that it was referring to the axis of the Earth, but I can't remember why.

So what is this passage really saying? Was there some other was to make seals back then? And I understand that this book is poetic, but the Lord is the one saying this in the passage.

Re: Job 38:14 says earth is flat?

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:17 am
by B. W.
zackabba1 wrote:In Job 38:14, it says :

"The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment. (NIV)"

Now, as far as I know, when you press clay with a seal, it has a flat base and features that stand out; the Earth doesn't look like this. :|

I read somewhere that it was referring to the axis of the Earth, but I can't remember why.

So what is this passage really saying? Was there some other was to make seals back then? And I understand that this book is poetic, but the Lord is the one saying this in the passage.
Compare with

Isa 40:21, 22 -Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth? 22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. NKJV

Bible does not teach a flat earth

As for Job 38 - look at the context:

Job 38:13 that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it?
Job 38:14 It is changed like clay under the seal, and its features stand out like a garment.
Job 38:15 From the wicked their light is withheld, and their uplifted arm is broken.
ESV

Next look at the book of Revelation 20:11-13 and read what Isa 65:17 as these explain the comments in Job 38:14

Also Note Revelation 5:1,2,5,9 and Rev 6:1, 2 concerning seals...
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Re: Job 38:14 says earth is flat?

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 4:30 pm
by zackabba1
Okay. I think I understand the context a bit better now.

And you're right, the bible doesn't teach that the earth is flat. In fact, a few chapters before this verse, Job correctly stated that the earth is suspended in space, with nothing under it (26:7).

Thank you, and God Bless.

1 Thess: "Test everything. Hold on to the good."

Re: Job 38:14 says earth is flat?

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 7:57 pm
by smiley
zackabba1 wrote:In fact, a few chapters before this verse, Job correctly stated that the earth is suspended in space, with nothing under it (26:7).
And there are also verses that say that the Earth sits upon pillars.

(and if you think I must be an atheist because I said this, don't bother commenting - you're wrong)

Re: Job 38:14 says earth is flat?

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:00 pm
by B. W.
smiley wrote:
zackabba1 wrote:In fact, a few chapters before this verse, Job correctly stated that the earth is suspended in space, with nothing under it (26:7).
And there are also verses that say that the Earth sits upon pillars.

(and if you think I must be an atheist because I said this, don't bother commenting - you're wrong)
Concerning pillars - metaphors!

Nothing else to be said :wave:


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Re: Job 38:14 says earth is flat?

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:07 pm
by smiley
Yes, yes. All scientfically incorrect verses must be metaphors. . . ;)

(even though it was a very common belief in biblical times that the earth did, in fact, sit upon pillars)

I have a much better solution. Although the Bible was inspired by God, not every individual sentence is inerrant. That way you don't run into problems like trying to argue that passages like this are God's words:

Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction...
Blessed are those who seize your infants
and dash them against the rocks
(Psalms 137:8-9)

Re: Job 38:14 says earth is flat?

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:12 pm
by B. W.
smiley wrote:Yes, yes. All scientfically incorrect verses must be metaphors. . . ;)

(even though it was a very common belief in biblical times that the earth did, in fact, sit upon pillars)

I have a much better solution. Although the Bible was inspired by God, not every individual sentence is inerrant. That way you don't run into problems like trying to argue that passages like this are God's words:

Came friom the Hindu's I think... Pillars supported by Elephants if my memory is correct :lol:

Symbolism and metaphors are used world wide.
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Re: Job 38:14 says earth is flat?

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:51 pm
by zackabba1
smiley wrote:Yes, yes. All scientfically incorrect verses must be metaphors. . . ;)

(even though it was a very common belief in biblical times that the earth did, in fact, sit upon pillars)

I have a much better solution. Although the Bible was inspired by God, not every individual sentence is inerrant. That way you don't run into problems like trying to argue that passages like this are God's words:

Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction...
Blessed are those who seize your infants
and dash them against the rocks
(Psalms 137:8-9)

There are many scriptures that can be ripped out of their context to make a case against them. For example the Muslims especially make use of Psalm 137:9 Happy the one who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock!

If we read the Scripture in context and then go to other Scriptures and history we find its true meaning.

Psalm 137:8-9: “O daughter of Babylon, who are to be destroyed, happy the one who repays you as you have served us! Happy the one who takes and dashes your little ones against the rock!

God is not telling Israel to smash the heads of their infants against rocks. Israel was taken captive with their children by the Babylonians in several different invasions.

God is pronouncing judgment upon Babylon for its great sin in showing no mercy when it destroyed Jerusalem and led the Jews captive. God is stating that Babylon will be dealt in the same manner that she treated Israel (according to prophecy). The day is coming when an enemy (will rejoice in its triumph over Babylon, and will be happy in the Slaughter). It was the Medes and Persians that conquered Babylon. She was completely overtaken and ruined by these empires. And just as she rejoiced in destroying Jerusalem and Israel, God says her conquerors will rejoice in destroying her, including her innocent infants.

God is not commanding such barbaric behavior but stating what the future will be for Babylon.. This was a fulfillment of Isaiah 13:15-16: Everyone who is found will be thrust through, and everyone who is captured will fall by the sword. Their children also will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished.”

from http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp7.htm

Pretty good explanation I think :)

Re: Job 38:14 says earth is flat?

Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:21 pm
by smiley
So in the end, despite this painful wall of text, you admit that God did inspire the "those who dash their infants against the rocks will be blessed" verse.

OK. . . so Babylonians took Israelities captive. Therefore, it's perfectly okay to take their babies and kill them by throwing them against the rocks!

Do you realize what you're saying? This is the kind of idiotic argument hyperliteralists are forced to adopt.
B. W. wrote: Symbolism and metaphors are used world wide.
The actual point is that this "metaphor" seems to suspiciously reflect the beliefs of people from the biblical era.

Think what you want, but to me, this is clearly the product of cultural conditioning. As are many other biblical verses.

Re: Job 38:14 says earth is flat?

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:36 am
by August
smiley wrote:So in the end, despite this painful wall of text, you admit that God did inspire the "those who dash their infants against the rocks will be blessed" verse.

OK. . . so Babylonians took Israelities captive. Therefore, it's perfectly okay to take their babies and kill them by throwing them against the rocks!

Do you realize what you're saying? This is the kind of idiotic argument hyperliteralists are forced to adopt.
Smiley, easy on the insults.

Please demonstrate by which historical-exegetical method you arrived at the conclusion that that verse is not inspired text. Your own moral outrage is not proof...you are simply choosing to believe some parts of the Bible is inspired and others not. On what basis do you do that?

Re: Job 38:14 says earth is flat?

Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:44 am
by Rich
Zach,

Sorry about not getting to your question earlier. I just got back from vacation and am behind on emails. So here is my answer:

I think it is important to look at the verse in context. Verse 12 is actually the beginning of the passage. Here it is in context from the NASB:

"Have you ever in your life commanded the morning, And caused the dawn to know its place, (Job 38:12)
That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it? (Job 38:13)
"It is changed like clay under the seal; And they stand forth like a garment. (Job 38:14)
"From the wicked their light is withheld, And the uplifted arm is broken. (Job 38:15)

The reason I cited from the NASB instead of the NIV is the NIV translation actually got verse 14 wrong. The word "earth" is nowhere in the text of verse 14. They assumed it from verse 13. However, from the context, one can easily see that the subject is the dawn or light (verses 12 and 15). So, in verse 14, the subject is the dawn, which reveals the wicked (as opposed to the darkness, which conceals them). So, the light of day reveals the wicked as a seal changes the clay under it and "they stand forth like a garment." So, the passage has nothing to do with a flat earth, but is a reference to the revealing of the wicked by the light of day.

Re: Job 38:14 says earth is flat?

Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:09 pm
by zackabba1
OH, okay. I get it now. It was referring to the light.

I was looking in the context of the NIV, which was wrong in the first place.

Thanks Rich, and God Bless!

Re: Job 38:14 says earth is flat?

Posted: Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:54 pm
by musician
smiley wrote:Yes, yes. All scientfically incorrect verses must be metaphors. . . ;)

(even though it was a very common belief in biblical times that the earth did, in fact, sit upon pillars)
Perhaps its not an issue of errancy but perspective and audience.

- N

Re: Job 38:14 says earth is flat?

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:54 am
by Gabrielus
Sticking clay under a seal produces a flat disc; this is pretty obvious.

Here is the problem for people whom think the earth is globe based on pics we see from NASA, why not go right to the person who creates the pictures of earth at NASA... Robert Simmons: https://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/ab ... immon.html

Here is his exact words copy/pasted from the site:

"Then we wrapped the flat map around a ball. My part was integrating the surface, clouds, and oceans to match people’s expectations of how Earth looks from space"

Created picture people, not a photograph. He tells you right there how it's done; right from the horses mouth, right off the NASA website. Now if you truly are still hard-headed over this, you have to ask yourself the tough question.. why on earth are we paying these people billions of dollars to create a picture when a simple photograph would suffice. Why don't they when there are supposedly thousands of satellites up there? Because there are no satellites, there is no "up there" to place them, that's why we don't have any photos. Again, don't like it, take it up with NASA, they tell you how it's created.

Bible makes it very clear, takes the shape of clay under a seal, aka a flat disc, so if one were to look over head upon us down on a circle, it's because it's a disc.

Re: Job 38:14 says earth is flat?

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:58 am
by RickD
Gabrielus wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:54 am
Sticking clay under a seal produces a flat disc; this is pretty obvious.

Here is the problem for people whom think the earth is globe based on pics we see from NASA, why not go right to the person who creates the pictures of earth at NASA... Robert Simmons: https://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/ab ... immon.html

Here is his exact words copy/pasted from the site:

"Then we wrapped the flat map around a ball. My part was integrating the surface, clouds, and oceans to match people’s expectations of how Earth looks from space"

Created picture people, not a photograph. He tells you right there how it's done; right from the horses mouth, right off the NASA website. Now if you truly are still hard-headed over this, you have to ask yourself the tough question.. why on earth are we paying these people billions of dollars to create a picture when a simple photograph would suffice. Why don't they when there are supposedly thousands of satellites up there? Because there are no satellites, there is no "up there" to place them, that's why we don't have any photos. Again, don't like it, take it up with NASA, they tell you how it's created.

Bible makes it very clear, takes the shape of clay under a seal, aka a flat disc, so if one were to look over head upon us down on a circle, it's because it's a disc.
I agree. When I walk out my door, it all looks flat.