1 Corinthians 14:34

[JCSx2]

1 Corinthians 14:34

Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.

What's up with this? I thought that with the coming of Jesus, "the Law" went out the window.

How can a logical argument be made to justify this?

It also says in the Bible not to add to or take away from the word of God. (Forgot the passage)

Someone please help me to understand this. I believe the Bible is the word of God, I believe we should not add to or take away from, or change it to fit our needs.

Thanks

Jim

[Enigma7457]

1 Corinthians 14:34

Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.

What's up with this? I thought that with the coming of Jesus, "the Law" went out the window.

How can a logical argument be made to justify this?

Not sure where i read the following, but it seems to make good sense to me:

Women of Jesus time were not usually educated. They weren't allowed in schools, etc. And, when the church was first beginning to form its foundations, there were a lot of false teachers out there teaching the wrong things. Since women of the time were uneducated, they could be easily lead astray. (I think there is a line later in that section you quoted that talks about women listening to their husbands, or something like that). So, as a defense, women were told not to speak, so that they didn't talk to any of these false teachers. This, in turn, would keep them in the church.

Again, not sure where i read it, but it seems to make sense to me.

It also says in the Bible not to add to or take away from the word of God. (Forgot the passage)

Someone please help me to understand this. I believe the Bible is the word of God, I believe we should not add to or take away from, or change it to fit our needs.

I'm not sure what you're asking here.

[JCSx2]

1 Corinthians 14:34

Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.

What's up with this? I thought that with the coming of Jesus, "the Law" went out the window.

How can a logical argument be made to justify this?

Not sure where i read the following, but it seems to make good sense to me:

Women of Jesus time were not usually educated. They weren't allowed in schools, etc. And, when the church was first beginning to form its foundations, there were a lot of false teachers out there teaching the wrong things. Since women of the time were uneducated, they could be easily lead astray. (I think there is a line later in that section you quoted that talks about women listening to their husbands, or something like that). So, as a defense, women were told not to speak, so that they didn't talk to any of these false teachers. This, in turn, would keep them in the church.

Again, not sure where i read it, but it seems to make sense to me.

It also says in the Bible not to add to or take away from the word of God. (Forgot the passage)

Someone please help me to understand this. I believe the Bible is the word of God, I believe we should not add to or take away from, or change it to fit our needs.

I'm not sure what you're asking here.

In Revelation 22:18-19
18 For[a] I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away[c] his part from the Book[d] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I understand that this is stated for the book of Revelations, BUT in Genisis

Genesis 2:16-17

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

But Eve restated it slightly different saying

Genesis 3:2-3

2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.'

Now did this misinterpretation assist in her mistake? Well that can be up for discussion.

Bottom line I am making is ... Do not change what God has said, And if you believe that the bible is the word of the Lord then Do not change what is written in it and follow its instructions and guidance.

Now back to 1 Corinthians 14:34.

I understand that in the day Women in society were viewed as a lesser status, and now women are equal, and they should be due to the fact they contribute just as much as men.

But how can we argue and back up what it says in this scripture when it is demoralizing and demeaning to women?

[FFC]

1 Corinthians 14:34

Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.

What's up with this? I thought that with the coming of Jesus, "the Law" went out the window.

How can a logical argument be made to justify this?

Not sure where i read the following, but it seems to make good sense to me:

Women of Jesus time were not usually educated. They weren't allowed in schools, etc. And, when the church was first beginning to form its foundations, there were a lot of false teachers out there teaching the wrong things. Since women of the time were uneducated, they could be easily lead astray. (I think there is a line later in that section you quoted that talks about women listening to their husbands, or something like that). So, as a defense, women were told not to speak, so that they didn't talk to any of these false teachers. This, in turn, would keep them in the church.

Again, not sure where i read it, but it seems to make sense to me.

It also says in the Bible not to add to or take away from the word of God. (Forgot the passage)

Someone please help me to understand this. I believe the Bible is the word of God, I believe we should not add to or take away from, or change it to fit our needs.

I'm not sure what you're asking here.

In Revelation 22:18-19
18 For[a] I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away[c] his part from the Book[d] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I understand that this is stated for the book of Revelations, BUT in Genesis

Genesis 2:16-17

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

But Eve restated it slightly different saying

Genesis 3:2-3

2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.'

Now did this misinterpretation assist in her mistake? Well that can be up for discussion.

Bottom line I am making is ... Do not change what God has said, And if you believe that the bible is the word of the Lord then Do not change what is written in it and follow its instructions and guidance.

Now back to 1 Corinthians 14:34.

I understand that in the day Women in society were viewed as a lesser status, and now women are equal, and they should be due to the fact they contribute just as much as men.

But how can we argue and back up what it says in this scripture when it is demoralizing and demeaning to women?

I'm not sure that it is, JCSx2. Paul was big on keeping confusion and outbursts at a minimum in the church. Back in the day, it was the custom for the men and women to sit in their own areas in the temple....separated. so for a woman, who was for the most part less educated, through no fault of their own, to yell a question across the church to their husband would very much be a distraction. That is why Paul said that the women should be silent in the church and to ask their husbands at home if they has any questions.

I believe the issue about women not having authority over men is another separate issue, which doesn't apply here.

Either way I don't see any contradictions here in Gods word.

[B. W.]

1 Corinthians 14:34, "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says." What's up with this? I thought that with the coming of Jesus, "the Law" went out the window. How can a logical argument be made to justify this?It also says in the Bible not to add to or take away from the word of God. (Forgot the passage)

Someone please help me to understand this. I believe the Bible is the word of God, I believe we should not add to or take away from, or change it to fit our needs.

Thanks...Jim

One thing you must never do is forget the contextual flow of the entire letter of 1 Corinthians in exchange for taking one part out of context. To do so leads to a misunderstanding of the verse you cited. This leads to error to justify a claim that Christianity makes women subservient slaves to men's abusive whims — like in the Middle East Muslim world.

Christianity does not do this. It is a sad fact that men use 1 Corinthians 14:34 to justify dominance but this passage does-not teach this as the entire context of 1 Corinthians proves. Let us therefore look:

1 Corinthians 3:3, "For you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? 3:4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not being merely human?" ESV

1 Corinthians 4:21, “What do you wish? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love in a spirit of gentleness?” ESV

First there was strife in the Corinthian church and next there was sexual immorality — read chapters 5 and 6:18. This strife needed to be stopped and next sexual immorality needed to be stopped. Read:

1 Corinthians 7:2-4, “But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does." ESV

This passage expresses how to end this sexual immorality in this church as well as expresses equality between men and women as does 1 Corinthians 11:11-12: “Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; 12 for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God.” ESV -

See the equality? Now next...

There was division in the church caused by people suing each other, misuse of the spiritual gifts, profaning the Lord's Supper, favoritism, exalting human teachers, and sexual immorality. This is expressed in 1 Corinthians 11:18: "For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part, 19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized." ESV

Put this together and you'll see in 1 Corinthians 14 that there was an issue of spiritual gifts and that these gifts were being misused. Causing women and men to turn to others they favored for teaching and neglecting their spouses. This was leading to sexual immorality and to division, strife, suing each other, contention, etc as the book of 1 Corinthians plainly reveals beyond doubt. Now read:

1 Corinthians 14:33-35, "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church." ESV

This is not a put down but rather a restoration of order as things were getting way out of hand. The women were running to other men and sexual immorality ran rampant, of course there would be strife, division, and vindictive people suing each other and profaning the table of the Lord!

The context of 1 Corinthians 14:34 also is clarified in Greek text — the word translated silence means hold one's speech — watch what you say — not complete silence! Next, the phrases 'not to speak' is in reference to not being allowed to run to other men for teaching due to the strife and temptations this was causing. The cure simple: have married couples ask their own spouses. Paul even addresses single men and women in earlier chapters to focus on the Lord and not sex! Get real — there was a problem in this church.

The reference for women not speaking in the Church must be taken in context of the why the letter of 1 Corinthians was written. Both men and women were getting into sin by showing favoritism, causing marriages to split up, sex, and the unity of God's love to be mocked continually.

This does not imply that only women were to blame — men were too by permitting this to happen. The men were exploiting the issues for sex, power, prestige — read the entire letter again. This letter was a rebuke for both men and women in the Corinthian church. Paul reminded men in chapter 11 that men and women were equal, did he not? I earlier quoted the verses for you! In other letters Paul tells men to Love their wives [agape wise] and not be bitter toward them and that each are co-equals in the gift of life.

Paul was trying to restore order to this messed up church and show the more excellent way that chapter 13 and chapter 15 speaks of. Is there a lesson in this for us today? How far does the modern Church reflect the 1 Corinthian church? Any wonder why much of the power of the modern Church has waxed cold? There is a more excellent way and a price to pay: repentance and live the more excellent way.

Lastly, Christianity led to the emancipation of women, abolished slavery, set up a governmental system designed to reflect grace, etc. Is Christianity the great evil of the world or that which sets free? Was the battle easy for any of these to happen? Did it take time to combat cultural norms — even the ones that hijacked the bible to justify abuse? Yes! Was there a cost? Yes! Sin takes many forms. Christianity combats this sin and cleanseth it from where it resides. First in house then outside. It takes time.

From all this there also is a lesson to be learned from it all on the issues of how God governs the universe justly, rightly, with equity…that is for those wise enough to discern this mystery wisely.

1 Corinthians 2:13, “And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.” ESV

1 Corinthians 3:1-3, “But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, 3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?” ESV

1 Corinthians 11:18: "For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part, 19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized." ESV

Which ones are we?
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[Kurieuo]

1 Corinthians 14:34

Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.

What's up with this? I thought that with the coming of Jesus, "the Law" went out the window.

How can a logical argument be made to justify this?

It also says in the Bible not to add to or take away from the word of God. (Forgot the passage)

Someone please help me to understand this. I believe the Bible is the word of God, I believe we should not add to or take away from, or change it to fit our needs.

Thanks

Jim

Do you think we should not respect the moral opinions and beliefs of cultures outside of our own?

[JCSx2]

1 Corinthians 14:34, "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says." What's up with this? I thought that with the coming of Jesus, "the Law" went out the window. How can a logical argument be made to justify this?It also says in the Bible not to add to or take away from the word of God. (Forgot the passage)

Someone please help me to understand this. I believe the Bible is the word of God, I believe we should not add to or take away from, or change it to fit our needs.

Thanks...Jim

One thing you must never do is forget the contextual flow of the entire letter of 1 Corinthians in exchange for taking one part out of context. To do so leads to a misunderstanding of the verse you cited. This leads to error to justify a claim that Christianity makes women subservient slaves to men's abusive whims — like in the Middle East Muslim world.

Christianity does not do this. It is a sad fact that men use 1 Corinthians 14:34 to justify dominance but this passage does-not teach this as the entire context of 1 Corinthians proves. Let us therefore look:

1 Corinthians 3:3, "For you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? 3:4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not being merely human?" ESV

1 Corinthians 4:21, “What do you wish? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love in a spirit of gentleness?” ESV

First there was strife in the Corinthian church and next there was sexual immorality — read chapters 5 and 6:18. This strife needed to be stopped and next sexual immorality needed to be stopped. Read:

1 Corinthians 7:2-4, “But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does." ESV

This passage expresses how to end this sexual immorality in this church as well as expresses equality between men and women as does 1 Corinthians 11:11-12: “Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; 12 for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God.” ESV -

See the equality? Now next...

There was division in the church caused by people suing each other, misuse of the spiritual gifts, profaning the Lord's Supper, favoritism, exalting human teachers, and sexual immorality. This is expressed in 1 Corinthians 11:18: "For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part, 19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized." ESV

Put this together and you'll see in 1 Corinthians 14 that there was an issue of spiritual gifts and that these gifts were being misused. Causing women and men to turn to others they favored for teaching and neglecting their spouses. This was leading to sexual immorality and to division, strife, suing each other, contention, etc as the book of 1 Corinthians plainly reveals beyond doubt. Now read:

1 Corinthians 14:33-35, "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35 If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church." ESV

This is not a put down but rather a restoration of order as things were getting way out of hand. The women were running to other men and sexual immorality ran rampant, of course there would be strife, division, and vindictive people suing each other and profaning the table of the Lord!

The context of 1 Corinthians 14:34 also is clarified in Greek text — the word translated silence means hold one's speech — watch what you say — not complete silence! Next, the phrases 'not to speak' is in reference to not being allowed to run to other men for teaching due to the strife and temptations this was causing. The cure simple: have married couples ask their own spouses. Paul even addresses single men and women in earlier chapters to focus on the Lord and not sex! Get real — there was a problem in this church.

The reference for women not speaking in the Church must be taken in context of the why the letter of 1 Corinthians was written. Both men and women were getting into sin by showing favoritism, causing marriages to split up, sex, and the unity of God's love to be mocked continually.

This does not imply that only women were to blame — men were too by permitting this to happen. The men were exploiting the issues for sex, power, prestige — read the entire letter again. This letter was a rebuke for both men and women in the Corinthian church. Paul reminded men in chapter 11 that men and women were equal, did he not? I earlier quoted the verses for you! In other letters Paul tells men to Love their wives [agape wise] and not be bitter toward them and that each are co-equals in the gift of life.

Paul was trying to restore order to this messed up church and show the more excellent way that chapter 13 and chapter 15 speaks of. Is there a lesson in this for us today? How far does the modern Church reflect the 1 Corinthian church? Any wonder why much of the power of the modern Church has waxed cold? There is a more excellent way and a price to pay: repentance and live the more excellent way.

Lastly, Christianity led to the emancipation of women, abolished slavery, set up a governmental system designed to reflect grace, etc. Is Christianity the great evil of the world or that which sets free? Was the battle easy for any of these to happen? Did it take time to combat cultural norms — even the ones that hijacked the bible to justify abuse? Yes! Was there a cost? Yes! Sin takes many forms. Christianity combats this sin and cleanseth it from where it resides. First in house then outside. It takes time.

From all this there also is a lesson to be learned from it all on the issues of how God governs the universe justly, rightly, with equity…that is for those wise enough to discern this mystery wisely.

1 Corinthians 2:13, “And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.” ESV

1 Corinthians 3:1-3, “But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, 3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?” ESV

1 Corinthians 11:18: "For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part, 19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized." ESV

Which ones are we?
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Thanks a bunch!!!!!!

Context is very important, my mistake is I look at context usually before and after the verse I am reading, This example goes further than a few verses.

[JCSx2]

1 Corinthians 14:34

Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.

What's up with this? I thought that with the coming of Jesus, "the Law" went out the window.

How can a logical argument be made to justify this?

It also says in the Bible not to add to or take away from the word of God. (Forgot the passage)

Someone please help me to understand this. I believe the Bible is the word of God, I believe we should not add to or take away from, or change it to fit our needs.

Thanks

Jim

Do you think we should not respect the moral opinions and beliefs of cultures outside of our own?

Not sure what you are asking? But I will answer.

Some cultures have moral opinions that do not jive with my own. I will not beat a woman, some cultures that is an accepitable practice.

As far a this verse goes, I need to understand it better so that i may be a better witness.

[Kurieuo]

Well... firstly off the bat (pun perhaps intended), this passage is definitely not condoning beating a woman.

However, in order to judge the morality of another culture (which is what is being done with the person who makes a moral challenge on this particular passage), a person needs to base their morality as higher than that other cultures. And if a person does this then a valid question to ask them is what it is they are basing their higher morality in, and then secondly why such a basing matters to be counted as a higher morality. For example, our own culture can not provide a higher morality over another culture in any meaningful sense. Our own culture can provide morality for people within our own culture, but not people within another culture. Without any basing for a morality that transcends cultures any moral challenge on this passage is vacuous.

For Christians however, who is Paul talking to? He makes mention of who he is writing to way back at chapter 1 verse 2 - the Church of Corinth. Paul's words are therefore not a general rule for all Christians to follow, but very specific to the situation at the Church of Corinth. BW does a great job of revealing some of the situations Paul mentions in other areas of his letter.

[B. W.]

Well... firstly off the bat (pun perhaps intended), this passage is definitely not condoning beating a woman.

However, in order to judge the morality of another culture (which is what is being done with the person who makes a moral challenge on this particular passage), a person needs to base their morality as higher than that other cultures. And if a person does this then a valid question to ask them is what it is they are basing their higher morality in, and then secondly why such a basing matters to be counted as a higher morality. For example, our own culture can not provide a higher morality over another culture in any meaningful sense. Our own culture can provide morality for people within our own culture, but not people within another culture. Without any basing for a morality that transcends cultures any moral challenge on this passage is vacuous.

For Christians however, who is Paul talking to? He makes mention of who he is writing to way back at chapter 1 verse 2 - the Church of Corinth. Paul's words are therefore not a general rule for all Christians to follow, but very specific to the situation at the Church of Corinth. BW does a great job of revealing some of the situations Paul mentions in other areas of his letter.

This was a letter to the Church of Corinth addressing specific problems. Paul uses much tact and great restraint born out of genuine love for God to address these issues. If any of us were in Paul shoes, I think none-of-us would not have been so gracious and tactful.

As for cultural norms, in my college days I had several classes on ancient Roman and Greek society. Ancient Roman society and cultural was pragmatic and male dominated — so was pre Roman-Greek cultural. Many of the ancient Middle Eastern Cultures were also extremely patriarchal. Women were treated badly. This is where and how this cultural mindset came about and was diffused into the West through Roman influence. This is turn, sadly crept into the Christian Church in its interpretation of scripture.

The bible teaches that men and women are equal in the sight of God, that both sexes are co-heirs with the gift of life, that men and women are different from each other yet were made for each other, each has roles yet these roles were never for inequality but rather for the simple fact that I cannot, as a man, do things that my wife can do and visa-versa. After 19 years of being married, my wife provides balances for me and I to her — we are a team — a unity. The bible teaches for the sexes to respect and love each other as well as honor their roles each bring to each other.

This is a far cry from the cultural norms of the ancient world. When the Christianity spread, it honored women and this was a threat to the ancient world systems. As a matter of fact, at the end of one of his letters Paul honors two women teachers. Midst the backdrop of the cultural norms, there was the risk of sexual immorality caused by domineering men teachers as well as women teachers when both sexes were mixed.

That is one reason why Paul uses the language he uses — to stop this as well as stop any potential hearsay caused by men teaching only women and visa-versa. This was more for protection of the integrity of the Church and gospel message to keep it from falling into disrepute due to sexual immoral acts by the genders of its leaders.

Toss in the persecution of the early church and the deaths of many. You can see how cultural norms crept in the interpretations of scripture. These male dominated norms were due to a hypothesis I have and it is this: young males are basically afraid of women and transferred this fear into control. Right or wrong — it is an interesting hypothesis.
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[JCSx2]

Well... firstly off the bat (pun perhaps intended), this passage is definitely not condoning beating a woman.

However, in order to judge the morality of another culture (which is what is being done with the person who makes a moral challenge on this particular passage), a person needs to base their morality as higher than that other cultures. And if a person does this then a valid question to ask them is what it is they are basing their higher morality in, and then secondly why such a basing matters to be counted as a higher morality. For example, our own culture can not provide a higher morality over another culture in any meaningful sense. Our own culture can provide morality for people within our own culture, but not people within another culture. Without any basing for a morality that transcends cultures any moral challenge on this passage is vacuous.

For Christians however, who is Paul talking to? He makes mention of who he is writing to way back at chapter 1 verse 2 - the Church of Corinth. Paul's words are therefore not a general rule for all Christians to follow, but very specific to the situation at the Church of Corinth. BW does a great job of revealing some of the situations Paul mentions in other areas of his letter.

Well,

I originally asked my question about this verse so that I may better understand it. To better understand it so I may be a better witness to God.

I really did not mean to be judgmental of other cultures by asking what I did, If it was interpreted as such well sorry did not mean to confuse anyone.

I do appreciate all the answers I received from you and BW.

Thanks

Jim