Love your enemies - should we even love Satan?

Discussions about the Bible, and any issues raised by Scripture.
User avatar
bizzt
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:11 pm
Christian: No
Location: Calgary
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#16

Post by bizzt » Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:21 am

Another question can you show me that God Loves all of his Creation?

FFC
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1684
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:11 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#17

Post by FFC » Mon Feb 12, 2007 8:07 pm

bizzt wrote:Is Satan the Embodiment of Sin??
I don't think so. I just think he has been around long enough to be pretty good at it.
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

User avatar
bizzt
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:11 pm
Christian: No
Location: Calgary
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#18

Post by bizzt » Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:58 am

FFC wrote:
bizzt wrote:Is Satan the Embodiment of Sin??
I don't think so. I just think he has been around long enough to be pretty good at it.
Was the Devil ever Good in light of this scripture?

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

FFC
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1684
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:11 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#19

Post by FFC » Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:50 pm

bizzt wrote:
FFC wrote:
bizzt wrote:Is Satan the Embodiment of Sin??
I don't think so. I just think he has been around long enough to be pretty good at it.
Was the Devil ever Good in light of this scripture?

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
I would ask from the beginning of what? The beginning of his fall from favor with God? The beginning of mankind? I ask because I always thought he was created perfect before he gave into pride and wanted to be like God.
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

User avatar
bizzt
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:11 pm
Christian: No
Location: Calgary
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#20

Post by bizzt » Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:22 pm

Awesome!!!

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

User avatar
bizzt
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:11 pm
Christian: No
Location: Calgary
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#21

Post by bizzt » Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:24 pm

So on to my Second question then. Can it be shown in scripture that God Loves all of his Creation??

FFC
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1684
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:11 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#22

Post by FFC » Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:50 pm

bizzt wrote:So on to my Second question then. Can it be shown in scripture that God Loves all of his Creation??
That is a tough one if you take verses out of context.

I would say yes because we know that God is love and He demonstrated that love when He sent His son to die for sinners. We are also commanded to love our enemies, which before Christ died for us, we all were to God.

It's true that God hates sin and those that practice it, but to me that speaks more to the attitude of the person who embraces and practices sin then the essence of the person himself. God is able to hate someone who sins and love them at the same time.
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

User avatar
bizzt
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:11 pm
Christian: No
Location: Calgary
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#23

Post by bizzt » Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:44 pm

FFC wrote:
bizzt wrote:So on to my Second question then. Can it be shown in scripture that God Loves all of his Creation??
That is a tough one if you take verses out of context.

I would say yes because we know that God is love and He demonstrated that love when He sent His son to die for sinners. We are also commanded to love our enemies, which before Christ died for us, we all were to God.

It's true that God hates sin and those that practice it, but to me that speaks more to the attitude of the person who embraces and practices sin then the essence of the person himself. God is able to hate someone who sins and love them at the same time.
Did Jesus die for the Angels? Are Angels/Demons in that same boat where God can love and hate them at the same time?

In essence can the Devil be saved?

FFC
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1684
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:11 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#24

Post by FFC » Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:40 pm

Bizzt wrote:Did Jesus die for the Angels? Are Angels/Demons in that same boat where God can love and hate them at the same time?

In essence can the Devil be saved?
Good questions! I don't know. Was there a redemption plan set up for Satan and the fallen angels like there was for mankind? Was there an initial test that they failed and that we don't read about in the scriptures?
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

User avatar
Byblos
Old School
Posts: 5966
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:21 pm
Christian: Yes
Location: NY
Has liked: 96 times
Been liked: 139 times

#25

Post by Byblos » Sat Feb 17, 2007 7:28 am

FFC wrote:
Bizzt wrote:Did Jesus die for the Angels? Are Angels/Demons in that same boat where God can love and hate them at the same time?

In essence can the Devil be saved?


Good questions! I don't know. Was there a redemption plan set up for Satan and the fallen angels like there was for mankind? Was there an initial test that they failed and that we don't read about in the scriptures?


I'm looking for the post from PL where he addressed this very topic but haven't found it yet. He showed from scripture that the redemption plan applies to us, humans only. It does not apply to angels, fallen or otherwise. PL, if you recall where it is, please help me out.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

User avatar
madscientist
Valued Member
Posts: 359
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 5:29 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: St Andrews, Fife, UK / Prievidza, Slovakia
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

satan question..

#26

Post by madscientist » Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:57 am

Hmm very interesting i also wanted to know the answer... well probably God loved him at the beginning and then when he sinned he hated him - to eternal damnation. However why wasnt he given a chance? or was he? Well it was Satan's fault, but if he knew he had no chance and would be damned, then the most natural and obvious thing was to go against his Creator. That is what everyone would do i think. if we are at the hellgate knowing there is no way back we would just hate God and evryone coz loving Him wouldnt save us. Or isnt it? is this the reason he became so evil?
And how long was he good? I dont think Scriptures say anythng about time - how long he lived etc. Was there actually TIME? No space, no time - according to Einstein. But if God can exist without needing energy and space, then probablyt all other angels can also exist... :) So maybe the time qiestion isnt that easy to answer.
And then are we also allowed - or is it a good thinbg to use satans name in vain, swear at him and mock him? just as we thank god and pray to him, can we do the opposite to satan? Sort of anti-pray to him, say how evil is he and how hated is he? Wouldnt taht bring pleasure to us ina similar way praying does?
The whole satan thing is a very hard one to understand. Why did he sin? He was given free will. And why did the other angels go with him? And GOd knew beforehand there would be the FAll so it was part of His will? And would anyone of us, if we were satan int he same situatuon as him, do the same thing? Its prbably hard to explain how free will works - how does it actually work if there is no brain and physical means present? How do the decisions happen?
Also, that about free will and whether it would be possible to change what had happened if more chances were given or whether it is all pre-defined. And why some are angels, some human, some there, some there, etc - why God chooses how he likes and whether the end result would have been the same as if it were different or not.. - does anyone know answer?
I know those may be ahrd questions to asnwer but i am jus curious if anyone knows the answer coz its kinda bothering me... :wink:
"Love is only possible if a choice of either love or rejecting the love is given." One of the most true things id ever heard, not so long ago.

-MMS-

User avatar
puritan lad
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1491
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:44 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: Stuarts Draft, VA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

#27

Post by puritan lad » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:40 pm

Byblos wrote:
FFC wrote:
Bizzt wrote:Did Jesus die for the Angels? Are Angels/Demons in that same boat where God can love and hate them at the same time?

In essence can the Devil be saved?


Good questions! I don't know. Was there a redemption plan set up for Satan and the fallen angels like there was for mankind? Was there an initial test that they failed and that we don't read about in the scriptures?


I'm looking for the post from PL where he addressed this very topic but haven't found it yet. He showed from scripture that the redemption plan applies to us, humans only. It does not apply to angels, fallen or otherwise. PL, if you recall where it is, please help me out.
I think you were referring to the thread on predestination. I can't seem to find it myself.

God's love is a tough study, as there are many attributes of His love. He loves all of His creation, yet hates the wicked and Satan. It is said by some that"God loves the sinner but hates the sin". However, this draws an unbiblical distinction between the sinner and his sin. For what is there in a sinner, except for His sin?

Elect Angels (1 Timothy 5:21) aren't fallen, so they are in no need of redemption. Those who are damned cannot be saved, but God "cast[ed] them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment" (2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6).

Keep in mind, however, that all angels still have "free will", ie. they do what they want to do.

Hope this helps.
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - JOHN OWEN

//covenant-theology.blogspot.com
//christianskepticism.blogspot.com/

User avatar
Turgonian
Senior Member
Posts: 546
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:44 pm
Christian: No
Location: the Netherlands
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: satan question..

#28

Post by Turgonian » Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:45 am

madscientist wrote:And then are we also allowed - or is it a good thinbg to use satans name in vain, swear at him and mock him? just as we thank god and pray to him, can we do the opposite to satan? Sort of anti-pray to him, say how evil is he and how hated is he? Wouldnt taht bring pleasure to us ina similar way praying does?
Don't kick a man (or angel) when he's down. Besides, it's better to focus on God than to focus on His enemies.
madscientist wrote:The whole satan thing is a very hard one to understand.
I fully agree.
madscientist wrote:Why did he sin? He was given free will. And why did the other angels go with him?
We don't know why, but presumably they resented the authority of God.
madscientist wrote:And GOd knew beforehand there would be the FAll so it was part of His will?
Yes, just like the plan of redemption was part of His eternal will. You can't have redemption without fall.
madscientist wrote:And would anyone of us, if we were satan int he same situatuon as him, do the same thing?
If we were satan, we wouldn't be ourselves, would we?
The Bible says they were "willingly ignorant". In the Greek, this means "be dumb on purpose". (Kent Hovind)

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: satan question..

#29

Post by B. W. » Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:38 pm

I do not know how to answer other than use a way out there figure of speech to shed some light on this matter further… Here goes…

God is good and his nature is one of great love profound. Love would not be love if it coerces the object that love loves. This would not be love but rather rape. If the object of love rebels what course is open to love? Love must at times hate and punish in order to protect the integrity of love or it is not love. Likewise, true goodness often requires a display of severity in order to maintain and protect goodness.

In regards to Satan and God's love, never measure God's love by our limited human definition of love. Love is not not unbridled tolerance nor is it a wishy washy full of warm fuzzes. I love my [adopted] son as my own. When he was a baby he crapped some awful smelly loads! Love changes diapers when one does not wish too or want too. Love will discipline in order to restore but when restoration is impossible due to another's rejection and abuse of love's grace — what can love do?

Turn them lose and let them go their way even when knowing it's the wrong path to trod and the end result is doom. Love must at times hate and punish in order to protect the integrity of love or it is not love. Likewise, true goodness often requires a display of severity in order to maintain and protect goodness. Now read Revelations 21:1-9 and see the end result of God's love and its new beginnings. Indeed a great mystery.
-
-
-

User avatar
madscientist
Valued Member
Posts: 359
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 5:29 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: St Andrews, Fife, UK / Prievidza, Slovakia
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: satan question..

#30

Post by madscientist » Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:27 pm

Turgonian wrote:
madscientist wrote:And GOd knew beforehand there would be the FAll so it was part of His will?
Yes, just like the plan of redemption was part of His eternal will. You can't have redemption without fall.
madscientist wrote:And would anyone of us, if we were satan int he same situatuon as him, do the same thing?
If we were satan, we wouldn't be ourselves, would we?
Well so it was paertr of His will... ya true no redemption without fall but even so - lets say satan decided to be good, what then? Would God need to create beings till they wished to sin? Or was it predestined that satan sinned and basically there was no way out of it?
And that last part - ya i know, so true Turgy!! 8) But it is this eternal debate about what would happen if that and that happened, and how it seems UNFAIR that we are who we are and then that is our limitation - maybe if were in his position we'd sin as well. And we did not coz we werent given the chance of being infinitely evil... So ya - basicallt that was my point... :)

And back to PL's response - punoshment vs love - well to me, to be honest, punishment seems to be too rough once someone decides to be righteous and so on. Being harsh, even on children etc - severity, yes i agreee- sometimes needed. E.g. teachers and so - often by small kids the stereotype "strict means bad" which is realized later that is not true (of course not always!!) !! but even so - it looks like too much authority and "loving, enjoying the sight of suffering" - which seems evil to me. To scare before some1 does something bad, maybe even to threaten - but once evil done, punish and enjoy the sight of that person suffer - (coz why would you punish if that idea is something displeasing to you??) - seems too rough, and maybe even partly evil. Imagine a friend you love - and the fact he tries to punish you for something you have done. And FORGIVENESS! If you have a fight with a friend, for example, and you forgive one another, i dont think you will punish each other... Or will you? And God, or parents or so - authorities - might have the RIGHT but doesnt mean it MUST be used... And is there punsihment for EVERY BAD SMALL THING we do in our life?
"Love is only possible if a choice of either love or rejecting the love is given." One of the most true things id ever heard, not so long ago.

-MMS-

Post Reply