How to interpret the Bible

Discussions about the Bible, and any issues raised by Scripture.

Should we take Bible prophecy literally or allegorically?

Literally
7
78%
Allegorically
2
22%
 
Total votes: 9

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How to interpret the Bible

Post by Jac3510 »

Alright, so I have refused to seriously get into a debate on eschatology, especially with PL because those types of discussions are absolutely a waste of time until certain preliminaries are taken care of. Well, in the preterism, as well as the mark of the beast thread, we managed to come squarely to the first and primary question any student of eschatology must answer: by what method do I interpret Scripture?

Broadly, there two views I want to consider. The first is the historical-grammatical method, often referred to as the literal method of interpretation. A consistent application of this hermeneutic ALWAYS leads to a premillennial dispensationalism. Against this we have the allegorical method, which almost always yields an amillennial covenant theology. So, which is correct?

I strongly advocate a literal interpretation of Scripture in absolutely ALL cases. Let me give you a quick example. Suppose you received the following letter:

"Dear Mr. Smith,

As we have been unable to reach you by phone, we are sending you this to inform you that you owe ABC, Inc. $46.27 due no later than Jan. 21, 2006. If this payment is missed, your account will be closed and forwarded to a collection agency.

Sincerely,

Mr. ABC"

Now . . . do you read this and say, "What is ABC trying to tell me? Oh, I know. Duh. The phone clearly represents the ability to communicate between people, and ABC represents the outside world. The dollar amount and dates represent my need to interact with the world, and the collection agency represents the consequences of staying to myself too much. What a nice exhortation . . . Mr. ABC wants me to get out there and get a life!" Of course, if you think that, you'll find your account closed in a short period of time!

That is what we refer to as allegory. Simply put, to allegorize (or spiritualize) is to assign to literal objects secondary meanings while ignoring or rejecting the primary, objective interpretation. On the other hand, a literal interpretation would tell me that ABC represents ABC, the collection agency would be the collection agency, and the money and dates would be real money and dates. I read it that way, I know that I have to do something specific.

A brief background on the allegorical method: it was initially used by ancient Greeks because, when they studied the actions of their gods, they noticed that these "heros" were often more vile than they themselves were. The gods certainly couldn't be so terrible creatures, so they began to allegorize the stories to get "hidden meanings" out of them. The idea worked and was very popular. So popular, in fact, that Origin picked it up and started applying it to Christian texts. That man actually had over 200 interpretations on what the wheels of Pharaoh's chariots represented when he was chasing Moses in the wilderness! Sound extreme? It is, and for the most part, we have rejected his hermeneutic, except for when it comes to eschatology. For some reason (to be explained below), we feel the need to allegorize prophecy. Let's give two quick examples of this:
  • A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you. I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city. Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. (Zech 14:1-5, NIV)
Now, a literal interpretation of this isn't hard at all. There will come a day when the nations will rise up against Israel and destroy her for a time, but then the Lord Himself will go into battle on behalf of them. At that time, He will descend on the Mount of Olives and (if you keep reading), He will set up an earthly kingdom. Easy, literal, and straight forward. No problems, except for the fact that it hasn't happened yet.

Well, in walks in the allegorizer. "You don't understand," he says. "Jerusalem represents the Church, and the nations represent Satan's armies. The partial destruction represents the persecution of the saints, and the Lord's fighting on their behalf represents His faithfulness in preserving them as well as assuring them of victory in the end!" Sad . . . but this is how the system works. Let's give one more example, although we could easy site dozens and dozens.
  • And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. Also the cow and the bear will graze, Their young will lie down together, And the lion will eat straw like the ox. The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den. They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea. (Is. 11:6-9, NIV)
Again, from a literal perspective this is easy. It refers to a time when the curse on creation will be lifted. There will be no carnivorous activity, and the world will be at peace. Has this happened yet? No, but it will find fulfillment in the Millennial Kingdom. That is, until the allegorist steps in. This can't be such a grand promise, you silly escapists! No, lions and bears and snakes represent the sin nature, and the child represents the new man. The two will be at peace in the mature Christian, and the Lord will reign over the hearts of all. This is being fulfilled even today, we are told . . .

Now, you get five allegorists together, you will get five different interpretations. You get five literalists together, you get one interpretation.

This is the all important issue when it comes to eschatology, especially. The allegorist thinks that everything has been fulfilled, or is being fulfilled, in the Church. He is what we negatively refer to as a Replacement Theologian, though he would refer to himself as a Supersessionist. He believes that Church has superseded, or replaced, Israel as God's chosen people. He believes that the New Covenant has superseded, or replaced, the Old Covenant. He believes that the New Testament has superseded, or replaced, the Old Testament. This garbage has been taught for 1,900 years and was the fertile soil of Christian anti-Semitism.

But a literal interpretation allows for no such replacement. The Abrahamic Covenant was made to Abraham UNCONDITIONALLY. No disobedience--even the rejection of the Messiah--could undo that covenant. Secondly, it was everlasting. See Genesis 12:1-3. God promised Abraham three things: a land, a nation, and a blessing. Israel, to this day, has never received the land God promised in Gen. 15 (known as the Palestinian Covenant, a clarification of the first aspect of the Abrahamic Covenant). They have been a nation, but they've never seen the fulfillment of a permanent kingdom with a permanent King, as per the Davidic Covenant, which was a clarification of the second aspect. And throughout history, we see the third aspect of blessing has been and will continue to be fulfilled. Its ultimate fulfillment was in Christ, but even that has yet to be accomplished yet, for all the nations have not yet come to know Him.

So the replacement theologian has to say that God transferred the blessings of Israel and gave them to the Church. Therefore, the "land" promises have to be allegorized to refer to a "spiritual land" . . . that is, an inheritance in heaven. The nation is allegorized to be the Church, and the blessing is allegorized to be the ruling of Christ in our hearts. But, AGAIN, if we take it literally, we see that Israel could not have been cast aside, because their election was not based on their works!

I would ask any replacement theologian this:

If Israel's unconditional election in the Abrahamic Covenant could be lost by the rejection of the Messiah, why can't the Church's unconditional election be lost by that same rejection?

Now, I strongly assert that we take all prophecy literally. Naturally, that means we have to take into account figures of speech. In the above debt-collection letter, note the referenced to the "missed" payment. Does that mean that someone tried to grab for a check and missed it? Does it mean someone had bad hand-eye coordination? Of course not. That's a figure of speech to say that it didn't happen. And yet, this is still a literal interpretation. Some things in the Bible are obviously allegorical . . . the parable of the Prodigal Son, the Beast, and the Dragon all serve as examples. But the text itself makes this very obvious. I bring this up because people misunderstand the literal method to mean having to take every word at exactly face value. It doesn't mean that at all, which is why we refer to it, technically, as the historical-grammatical method. Words have meaning in their historical and grammatical setting . . . not just in themselves alone.

Now, I close this point by posing the biggest problem with the allegorical method: there is absolutely no provision for which we can systematically decide what allegorical interpretation is correct. The authority becomes the mind of the reader. He imposes on the text to make it say what he wants it to. If he wants to believe that Jesus did not physically raise from the dead, he can claim allegory! If he wants to believe that the beast has already come and gone, and he wants to assign that to Nero, then because Nero never issued a mark, he can claim the mark is allegory! This system allows a person to make the Bible say what they want it to say, rather than the other way around.

Because of all this, it is pointless to discuss eschatology or prophecy until we can agree on a method of interpretation. Since the apostles, Jesus, and the early church prior to Origin all used the literal method, and since God is not a God of confusion, and since it is the way that we interpret every other piece of literature we read, I suggest that we apply to the same standard to the Bible. Let it speak for itself.

God bless
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Post by Jbuza »

I completely agree.
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Re: How to interpret the Bible

Post by puritan lad »

Jac3510 wrote:I would ask any replacement theologian this:

If Israel's unconditional election in the Abrahamic Covenant could be lost by the rejection of the Messiah, why can't the Church's unconditional election be lost by that same rejection?
Israel (The Church) has not lost anything. I dealt with this in detail here.

http://discussions.godandscience.org/about1250.html

God does not elect a person based on that person's DNA. Not in the OT, and not now.

And pre-millennial Dispensationalists do not take prophecy literally, as will be easy to show. (In fact, some of their "literal" interpretations are quite comical.)

Pre-trib Rapture?
Third Jewish Temple?
Fig Tree Generation?
Russia Invades Israel?

SHow me the literal statements regarding the above?
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Post by Jac3510 »

I'll read through your other thread later, PL, but in the covenant view, Israel most certainly has lost something, unless, that is, you believe that the Palistinian Covenant has ever been completely fulfilled. It is simply a matter of history that they have never received the land that God expressly said He would give to them (see Gen. 15:18-20). In your view, they never receive that land.

As for God's electing a person based on their race, there are a couple of problems with this statement. First, you assume that election is for salvation. That is manifestly false. In the OT, election referred primarily to service (i.e., Cyrus, see Is. 45:1). I would agree that God does not choose some for salvation on the basis of their race, but then, I do not believe that God chooses certain individuals to be saved (that is, to be in Christ).

The second problem is that God clearly chose the Jewish nation. That cannot be disputed. Therefore, you will have to start separating what their election means versus our election, which may or may not be valid. You will have to say that some in the elect nation were not elect. This may or may not be valid. Regardless, we cannot ignore the fact that God did, in fact, choose the Hebrew people to be His chosen nation . . . to ignore that very, very basic biblical fact is to ignore one of the foundations of biblical theology.

Now, I'm looking forward to seeing prophecies that are not taken literally. As for the examples you cited:

Pre-trib Rapture: 1 Thess. 4:17, in which the words "caught up" mean "to rapture." The context is definitely pre-trib. Aside from this, 2 Thess. 2:6 clearly references either the Church and/or the Holy Spirit--we can go much deeper with that if you like--as the thing which holds back the antichrist. Either way, the Church will not be there for his advent, which, again, speaks plainly of a pre-trib rapture.

Third Jewish Temple: Daniel 9:27 plainly says that in the middle of the Tribulation, the antichrist will put an end to the sacrifices and will desolate the temple. Both require the temple be rebuilt, since it does not exist now.

Fig Tree Generation: Hal Lindsay garbage. I reject it complely. I take "generation" in Matthew to refer to unbelieving people in all times.

Russia Invades Israel: Nothing more than an extrapolation based on current geo-political designations. I don't know the reference off the top of my head . . . I think it's in Ezekiel, right? I've read it before and broadly agree, to the extent that we are talking about the nations of the east, whatever they are named at the time, attacking Israel in a time of peace.

Ah, nevermind . . . I found it. Ezekiel 38, the whole chapter, but especially verse 15.

So, that was easy. Literal interpretation is the way to go. So, get a few more ready, and in the meantime, I'll go through and come up with a nice list of literal prophecies that replacement theologians have been forced to allegorize.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Post by puritan lad »

OK Jac, Remember your rules. Literal=good, Allegorical=bad. I'm going to hold you to this...
Jac3510 wrote:Pre-trib Rapture: 1 Thess. 4:17, in which the words "caught up" mean "to rapture." The context is definitely pre-trib. Aside from this, 2 Thess. 2:6 clearly references either the Church and/or the Holy Spirit--we can go much deeper with that if you like--as the thing which holds back the antichrist. Either way, the Church will not be there for his advent, which, again, speaks plainly of a pre-trib rapture.
You claim that "the context (of 1 Thess. 4:17) is definitely pre-trib". Where does 1 Thess. 4 mention anything about a tribulation period? My Bible tells me that 1 Thess. 4:17 happens AFTER the resurrection (1 Thess. 4:16), not before some future tribulation period. The resurrection happens on "the last day" (John 6:39-40), not "pre-trib". Therefore, taken "literally", 1 Thess. 4:17 does NOT teach a "pre-trib" rapture.

And 2 Thess. 2:6 says nothing about the church or the Holy Spirit. Remember Jac. Literal.
Jac3510 wrote:Third Jewish Temple: Daniel 9:27 plainly says that in the middle of the Tribulation, the antichrist will put an end to the sacrifices and will desolate the temple. Both require the temple be rebuilt, since it does not exist now.
Literally? Where does Daniel 9:27 mention the "tribulation"? What about "antichrist"? Remember Jac, your rules apply. Let's take Daniel 9:24 literally. Seventy Sevens = 490 years. Daniel's 70 week prophecy has been fulfilled, literally within 490 after the second temple, unless Daniel was a false prophet.

Now you may object by inventing some imaginary 2,000 year gap and placing it within this prophecy, but "literally", you can't do that because Daniel says nothing "literally" about that.
Jac3510 wrote:Fig Tree Generation: Hal Lindsay garbage. I reject it complely. I take "generation" in Matthew to refer to unbelieving people in all times.
So much for taking "this generation" literally. I guess Jesus never answered His disciples original question, or else He purposely tried to mislead them.
Jac3510 wrote:Russia Invades Israel: Nothing more than an extrapolation based on current geo-political designations. I don't know the reference off the top of my head . . . I think it's in Ezekiel, right? I've read it before and broadly agree, to the extent that we are talking about the nations of the east, whatever they are named at the time, attacking Israel in a time of peace.

Ah, nevermind . . . I found it. Ezekiel 38, the whole chapter, but especially verse 15.

So, that was easy. Literal interpretation is the way to go. So, get a few more ready, and in the meantime, I'll go through and come up with a nice list of literal prophecies that replacement theologians have been forced to allegorize.
Ha. You claim that "Literal interpretation is the way to go". Let's examine Russia in Ezekiel 38. Oops. Can't find it. (Even if we assume this to be a prophecy about current events, there are alot of nations north of Israel).

However, let's give you the benefit of the doubt and suppose that it "Russia" is in there somewhere.

Ezekiel 38:15
"Then you will come from your place out of the far north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great company and a mighty army".
"Literally" speaking Jac, ALL of "Russia's" soldiers are going to invade on horseback. No mention of Jeeps, tanks, helicopters, jetfighters, etc. That'll be quite a sight won't it. Russians on horseback vs. Israel's airforce. No wonder they lose.

Ezekiel 38:4-5
"... with all your army, horses, and horsemen, all splendidly clothed, a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords....all of them with shield and helmet;"

"Literally" speaking Jac, ALL of "Russia's" soldiers are handling swords and shields and wearing helmets. No guns, bombs, or granades. I know that Russia has some serious cuts in military funding after the Soviet Union fell, but this is a little extreme don't you think. Remember Jac, literal=good, allegorical=bad.

Now why would "Russia" invade Israel? According to Ezekiel, it is to "take booty, to carry away silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods, to take great plunder" (Ezekiel 38:13). I guess Russia is really desperate for livestock, to attack that airforce on horseback carrying swords and shields. Remember Jac, literal=good, allegorical=bad.

And what happens after the war? Israel burns "Russia's" wooden war materials for fuel for 7 years. (Ezekiel 38:9-10). Great news!! They won't have to cut down trees in the forest anymore. (I guess that oil, gas, or nuclear power becomes obsolete by then.)

It is obvious to anyone that this is NOT a modern war. This prophecy was fulfilled when the Scythians, Assyrian invaders, were defeated by Judas Maccabeaus in the 2nd Century B.C.

Anyway Jac, thanks for proving my point. Premillennial Dispensationalists do NOT take Bible prophecy "literally". Just about everyone agrees that Revelation was written allegorically. The question, therefore, isn't whether Revelation is literal or symbolic. It is a question as to how to best interpret the symbols. Do we let the Bible interpret the Bible, or do we use the New York Times and a lot of guesswork? You have chosen the later, but please spare us the notion that your view is "literal". It's not.
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Post by Jac3510 »

I know know whether to sigh or laugh . . . I certainly expected more.

I'm going to let you work through your post again, because the answers I would provide here are absolutely stock answers. So, for both space and effectiveness, there's no reason to rehash the same things that have been said for the past fifty years. If you honestly don't know how the issues you've brought up have been answered by dispensational scholars, then this is not a discussion you need to be engaging in.

But, you do know the answers, so I'm not going to let you get away with this type of post. Try again. And while you are at it, try t avoid a straw man against the literal method. I made it very clear that "literal" is short-hand for "historical-grammatical." You have to argue against a position on its own tenants.

Once you re-evaluate, we'll continue this, and I'll provide more examples of allegorized Scriptures that clearly contradict God's Word.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Post by puritan lad »

That's a copout Jac. I just blew your "stock" references to pieces. There is nothing in the Bible about a pre-trib rapture or a third Jewish Temple. And the alleged Russian Invasion of Israel in Ezekiel 38-39 is laughable, as I pointed out.
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Post by Jac3510 »

Yeah . . .

You realize you can't say "there's nothing in the Bible" about them. That's exactly what the debate is about. Now, in the allegorical, replacement theological method you use, of course there isn't. But, from a literal, dispensational method, that's exactly what you see.

Start with Things to Come or The Millennial Kingdom. AGAIN, PL, you have to consider an argument on its own basis.

And if nothing else, keep in mind that the primary disagreement I have with your previous post is your gross misrepresentation of the grammatical-historical method. There's no reason to discuss the particular passages you mention until you can see the method's basic premises. As it happens, that's what this entire thread is about, anyway. So, let's deal that, shall we?
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Post by puritan lad »

Fair enough. Please explain the method in more detail and use your method to show me how 1 Thess. 4:17 shows a "pre-trib" rapture.

Then us this method to show me how Daniel 9:27 shows a third Jewish Temple.

Then the real winner. I want you to show me where Ezekiel 38-39 talks about a Russian Invasion of Israel (or for that matter, Russia at all).

Looking forward to it.
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Re: How to interpret the Bible

Post by jerickson314 »

Jac3510 wrote:Broadly, there two views I want to consider. The first is the historical-grammatical method, often referred to as the literal method of interpretation. A consistent application of this hermeneutic ALWAYS leads to a premillennial dispensationalism.
If that's the case, why is premillennial dispensationalism so new? Did they start using the technique in the 1800s? If so, why should we use it instead of a more traditional method?
Jac3510 wrote:I strongly advocate a literal interpretation of Scripture in absolutely ALL cases.
I believe we should look at the socio-historical context of a passage before deciding on an interpretation. In some cases, this leads to a literal interpretation; in others it leads to an allegorical interpretation. Scholarship from those who have studied ancient culture is extremely valuable, because we often have too many assumptions given to us by our culture to interpret works from vastly different cultures.

I didn't vote in the poll on account of the fact that neither approach given is always correct.

However, I will say that I generally find the partial preterist view, as Puritan Lad is defending, to be more convincing.
Jac3510 wrote:Let me give you a quick example. Suppose you received the following letter:

"Dear Mr. Smith,

As we have been unable to reach you by phone, we are sending you this to inform you that you owe ABC, Inc. $46.27 due no later than Jan. 21, 2006. If this payment is missed, your account will be closed and forwarded to a collection agency.

Sincerely,

Mr. ABC"

Now . . . do you read this and say, "What is ABC trying to tell me? Oh, I know. Duh. The phone clearly represents the ability to communicate between people, and ABC represents the outside world. The dollar amount and dates represent my need to interact with the world, and the collection agency represents the consequences of staying to myself too much. What a nice exhortation . . . Mr. ABC wants me to get out there and get a life!" Of course, if you think that, you'll find your account closed in a short period of time!
That's because in the context of modern American culture, a business letter is something we know to take literally. Prophesy passages in the Bible are not modern American business letters. It is fallacious to make assumptions about the literal or allegorical nature of an ancient work based on a dissimilar work in a culture which exists thousands of years later.
Jac3510 wrote:That is what we refer to as allegory. Simply put, to allegorize (or spiritualize) is to assign to literal objects secondary meanings while ignoring or rejecting the primary, objective interpretation. On the other hand, a literal interpretation would tell me that ABC represents ABC, the collection agency would be the collection agency, and the money and dates would be real money and dates. I read it that way, I know that I have to do something specific.
No one would allegorize a business letter in modern American culture. However, many writers create allegories all the time. Just not in business letters. Take poetry, for example. What's important in studying Bible prophesy is to understand how the culture for which it was written would take the work. God wouldn't write literal truth in such a way that it would be taken figuratively for thousands of years, would he?
Jac3510 wrote:A brief background on the allegorical method: it was initially used by ancient Greeks because, when they studied the actions of their gods, they noticed that these "heros" were often more vile than they themselves were. The gods certainly couldn't be so terrible creatures, so they began to allegorize the stories to get "hidden meanings" out of them. The idea worked and was very popular.
This was not the first occurrence of allegory. Ever been in a world literature class?
Jac3510 wrote:So popular, in fact, that Origin picked it up and started applying it to Christian texts. That man actually had over 200 interpretations on what the wheels of Pharaoh's chariots represented when he was chasing Moses in the wilderness! Sound extreme? It is, and for the most part, we have rejected his hermeneutic, except for when it comes to eschatology.
We have rejected silly notions such having 200 interpretations of wheels on chariots, yes. However, how we deal with the extremes has little bearing on how we deal with the less extreme. Don't set up a false dilemma between pedantic literalism and extremist allegorizing, as this would be fallacious.
Jac3510 wrote:Now, you get five allegorists together, you will get five different interpretations. You get five literalists together, you get one interpretation.
I'm not so sure. Allegorists who have studied the issue in depth can come to the same conclusions, and literalists don't always agree. For instance, both pre-tribbers and post-tribbers are literalists, but have different interpretations. Same goes with old-earth and young-earth creationists, although not in the field of prophesy.
Jac3510 wrote:Now, I strongly assert that we take all prophecy literally.
Why?
Jac3510 wrote:Now, I close this point by posing the biggest problem with the allegorical method: there is absolutely no provision for which we can systematically decide what allegorical interpretation is correct. The authority becomes the mind of the reader. He imposes on the text to make it say what he wants it to. If he wants to believe that Jesus did not physically raise from the dead, he can claim allegory! If he wants to believe that the beast has already come and gone, and he wants to assign that to Nero, then because Nero never issued a mark, he can claim the mark is allegory! This system allows a person to make the Bible say what they want it to say, rather than the other way around.
Only if allegory is presupposed. However, there is a difference between "Nero was the beast because the cultural context indicates such" and "Nero was the beast because I want such to be a past event." The former is not necessarily making the Bible say what people want it to say, nor is it arbitrary. Many scholars may come to such a consensus based on historical evidence.
Jac3510 wrote:Since the apostles, Jesus, and the early church prior to Origin all used the literal method,
Can you support this claim?
Jac3510 wrote:and since God is not a God of confusion,
Literalism that looks like figurative writing to the culture for which it is primarily written would cause supreme confusion. Remember that the Bible was originally written for ancient cultures, not us in particular. Culture has changed over the past few millenia.
Jac3510 wrote:and since it is the way that we interpret every other piece of literature we read,
Key word: we. The real question is how the ancients would interpret the literature they read. BTW, do you take sonnets literally?
Jac3510 wrote:I suggest that we apply to the same standard to the Bible. Let it speak for itself.
And take it out of historical context?

My thesis is that there are no quick and easy answers: nether "must be literal" nor "must be allegorical." Serious study and scholarship are necessary. Puritan Lad knows a lot more about the scholarship supporting preterism than I do, so I'll let him defend the particular points.
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Post by Jac3510 »

PL: A'ight . . . that's seems like a good way to do it, as we'll be demonstrating the application of the historical-grammatical method. I'll even go a step further and contrast these same passages with the allegorical method to demonstrate the supremacy of the former over the latter. With that said, I'll post that reply next week. It wouldn't be too terribly hard to work through these passages off the top of my head, but as it so happens, I'm taking an eschatology course this semester anyway, so I may as well earn some extra credit ;). I'm going to pull in references, which obviously takes a few more hours.

Jerick: Your questions, on the other hand, are more easily answered. I'll get to them probably tomorrow evening, as I'm leaving here to go to Wednesday night Bible study and praise practice.

God bless
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Post by Jac3510 »

If that's the case, why is premillennial dispensationalism so new? Did they start using the technique in the 1800s? If so, why should we use it instead of a more traditional method?
The answer to this question is fairly in depth, and I will go into it with some detail when I deal with the questions Puritan posed. In the meantime, premill. disp. is new because the method is fairly new. The School of Antioch notwithstanding, the grammatical-historical method wasn't really used until the Reformers came upon the idea of the sufficiency and authority Scripture (sola scriptura, spelling right?). The allegory method began with Philo and was popularized by Origen. It was Augustine who taught that Scripture must be interpreted in light of the Church, and thus, the allegorical method was sealed in place and used until the 1600's. Again, I'll expand more on this later.
I believe we should look at the socio-historical context of a passage before deciding on an interpretation. In some cases, this leads to a literal interpretation; in others it leads to an allegorical interpretation. Scholarship from those who have studied ancient culture is extremely valuable, because we often have too many assumptions given to us by our culture to interpret works from vastly different cultures.
I thoroughly believe that we should examine the socio-historical context of a passage. We should also examine the geo-political context and literary context for passages, not only for the time they were written, but also for the time they referred to. When you add to this the grammatical context, you have the historical-grammatical method.

Where I disagree with you is that this can lead to an allegorical interpretation. It cannot, and it never does. Now, if the author is using figurative language, obviously, that goes into the process. When Jesus spoke True Vine, He wasn't saying He was a plant any more than Paul was saying that Israel is a literal tree and that we are literal branches grafted into it. Again, we take figurative language, be it symbolic or expressive, into account. In no case, though, does this let us take an allegorical approach to the interpretation of Scripture. When Jesus says He will descend on the Mount of Olives, we believe that. When John says the Beast will require everyone to bear his mark, we believe that. When Isaiah says that the lion will lay down with the lamb and eat straw as the ox, we believe that.
I didn't vote in the poll on account of the fact that neither approach given is always correct.
At the risk of being pithy, the allegorical method is never right in interpretation, although it may have some Scriptural applications. On the flip side, the grammatical-historical method, when applied properly, always is both correct and yields the correct interpretation.
That's because in the context of modern American culture, a business letter is something we know to take literally. Prophesy passages in the Bible are not modern American business letters. It is fallacious to make assumptions about the literal or allegorical nature of an ancient work based on a dissimilar work in a culture which exists thousands of years later.
The point I was making is that language is expected to be understood. Now, I can, and later will, show that prophecy is meant to be taken just as literally as that business letter. However, in the meantime, it is sufficient to point to the fact that, if the allegorist believes the standard culture of ancient times was to take all prophecy allegorically, then it is up to him to prove as much. It is extremely obvious that ancient Jews expected both an earthly Messiah and an earthly Kingdom (and they'll get that one of these days!). This is enough to prove that the culture was one that worked with literal interpretations, thus, invalidating your arguments.

Again, I will develop this line of thought more when I further explain the grammatical-historical method in my reply to Puritan. I will, at that time, outline both the history of the literal and allegorical method.
No one would allegorize a business letter in modern American culture. However, many writers create allegories all the time. Just not in business letters. Take poetry, for example. What's important in studying Bible prophesy is to understand how the culture for which it was written would take the work. God wouldn't write literal truth in such a way that it would be taken figuratively for thousands of years, would he?
Just as in modern times, we wouldn't take a business letter as an allegory and yet would take a strict allegory as such (i.e., The Pilgrim's Progress), in ancient times, the Jew would not have taken prophecy as allegory. There are instances in both modern and Hebrew poetry where allegory is employed. There is a great difference in interpreting an allegory verses allegorizing a literal text. There are clear instances of allegory in both the NT and OT. But when we explain these, we are not employing the allegorical method. We are employing the grammatical-historical method, for we recognize that the literary context is one of figurative speech, and we treat it as such. This is far different, again, from taking a literal passage and interpreting it allegorically, as Replacement Theologians do.

As for God writing a literal truth in a figurative way, He has done this, as even Puritan would concede. In fact, if the allegorist is right, God uses allegory more than literal language! But, the objection seems to be that God would not write a message using literal language in such a way that it can be misconstrued, and thus misunderstood, for thousands of years. Were it not for the perversions of man, I would agree. Again, I will demonstrate this when I walk through the history of the grammatical-historical method, but there has been, for much of Church History, a remnant of literalists. They had simply been put down by the RCC.

So, I believe that God revealed His plan for mankind using plain, literal, normal language. It is sadly our own interpretive devices that have brought so much confusion.
This was not the first occurrence of allegory. Ever been in a world literature class?
I most certainly have attended world literature classes. Allegory has long, long been applied, and certainly before the time of the Greeks. But, if you notice what I said:
  • A brief background on the allegorical method: it was initially used by ancient Greeks because, when they studied the actions of their gods (emphasis added)
I was dealing with the method, not the literary style. To further clarify, I am dealing with the method as it relates to interpreting Scriptures. Again, I will thoroughly explain this when I walk through the history of the two methods with Puritan in my reply to his questions.
We have rejected silly notions such having 200 interpretations of wheels on chariots, yes. However, how we deal with the extremes has little bearing on how we deal with the less extreme. Don't set up a false dilemma between pedantic literalism and extremist allegorizing, as this would be fallacious.
As I noted, extreme allegorization has been rejected, but this has been a fairly recent event due in large part to the Reformers. The point relates to the method itself as it is applied to the interpretation of Scriptures. The question we are primarily interested in is the proper hermeneutical approach to eschatology. Replacement Theologians are forced to apply an allegorical method, a method which has been long ago discredited.

This will all be dealt with in a review of the historical practices of the Church and before as relating to interpretation.
I'm not so sure. Allegorists who have studied the issue in depth can come to the same conclusions, and literalists don't always agree. For instance, both pre-tribbers and post-tribbers are literalists, but have different interpretations. Same goes with old-earth and young-earth creationists, although not in the field of prophesy.
I am forced to giggle a bit here :). Obviously, many allegorists have come to the same conclusions, otherwise I couldn't have offered the interpretations I did in my original post. Most Replacement Theologians agree on a few basic interpretations, as do most literalists on a few. The point hyperbolistic, which is, to be very technical, a form of allegory in the sense that it is figurative speech. In other words, good old fashioned exaggeration, but it goes to prove my point. The grammatical-historical method takes this into account in interpretation.

Now, if we don't want to exaggerate and make the same point, what we can actually say is that the allegorical method does not provide any hard and fast rules by which interpretation is limited. There are rules that can be set up, of course, by a particular interpreter. For instance, one may say that the method can only be applied to prophecy, and thus, the interpretations must be in line with other Scripture taken literally. Another may say that plainer texts must serve as the limiters for the more difficult, and thus further allegorized, texts. The point is that, within the method itself, there is no particular limiter. That is, the authority for interpretation lies within the interpreter himself (or herself ;)).

On the flip side, there are very strong limiters inherent within the grammatical-historical method. Disagreements between interpretations result from only a few things. A lack of knowledge related to the context is usually at the root of these differences, but at other times, ambiguous phrases that could be literally taken in more than one way can result in differences as well (classic example: what does yom mean in Gen. 1?).
Why?
Why do I assert that all prophecy should be taken literally? The answer is that I believe that all Scripture should be taken literally. As prophecy is a part of Scripture, any prophetic Scripture should be taken literally.
Only if allegory is presupposed. However, there is a difference between "Nero was the beast because the cultural context indicates such" and "Nero was the beast because I want such to be a past event." The former is not necessarily making the Bible say what people want it to say, nor is it arbitrary. Many scholars may come to such a consensus based on historical evidence.
A few things here. First, note that the limit you have applied is not inherent to the method itself. You are advocating a historical-allegorical method. In fact, like most (if not all) Reformed Theologians (and most Replacement Theologians as well), you probably thoroughly adhere to the grammatical-historical method as it relates to narrative. You simply change your method when approaching eschatological issues. There is actually a reason for this that I'll cover in my post to Puritan. The sneak peak is that it relates to a lack of formal eschatology among Supersessionists in general.

Aside from the external limit proposed, there is also an issue with consistency within the method itself, even with the limit. Recently, Puritan provided an outstanding explanation of why the Beast should be related to Nero. He did a phenomenal job there, and I applaud him for it. The problem was, when it came to the mark, he claimed allegory. And why? Because he is not allowed to take it literally.

As a result, the method is actually, "Take it literal when possible, but when not, allegorize it." How do you decide when something is not allowable? The answer can only be when it is at odds with the presupposed theological system!
Can you support this claim?
I can support it very strongly, and I will do so in my full reply to Puritan.
Literalism that looks like figurative writing to the culture for which it is primarily written would cause supreme confusion. Remember that the Bible was originally written for ancient cultures, not us in particular. Culture has changed over the past few millenia.
As before, you are under obligation to prove that the ancient culture took prophecy allegorically. It can be demonstrated very easily that this is not the case, as I will do in my reply to Puritan. In the meantime, I thoroughly expect you to provide references clearly showing that ancient Israel regarded prophecy, as a genre, to be allegorical.
Key word: we. The real question is how the ancients would interpret the literature they read. BTW, do you take sonnets literally?
Funny thing about the key word "we" is that I meant it in terms of humanity as a whole, and not as "21st century American readers." I take allegory as allegory because I know it is allegory. I take fiction as fiction because I know it is fiction. You get the point. This is the way it has always been, and this is they way it will always be.

It may help you to note that many have objected to the phraseology behind "literal method" and "allegorical method." I would agree with these critics. By far, better terminology would be the "plain or normal method" verses the "mystical or spiritual method." So, in those terms, do I take sonnets literally (or normally, or plainly)? The answer is yes, especially as compared to the question, 'Do you take sonnets allegorically (or mystically or spiritually)?'.
And take it out of historical context?

My thesis is that there are no quick and easy answers: nether "must be literal" nor "must be allegorical." Serious study and scholarship are necessary. Puritan Lad knows a lot more about the scholarship supporting preterism than I do, so I'll let him defend the particular points.
As you've made it this far, you should not be surprised that I disagree that we should ever take a passage out of its historical context. Whenever I begin to prepare a sermon, I write a full geo-political examination of the book in which it is contained. In it, I examine authorship, date, historical context, political context, major themes, purpose (occasion) for the writing, recipients of the writing, etc. All of this has to be factored in, because when it comes to interpretation, before I can come to the Central Idea of the Text (to use the language of Vines and Shaddix), I must first be able to offer the General Context, Book Context, Immediate Context, and Mode of the Text (the last of these being "Christian life" or "Evangelical").

So, context is extremely important, and it forms the basis of the grammatical-historical method.

As for preterism, I have no need to debate it in this thread. Of course, certain points will come up, but the beauty is that the moment the grammatical-historical method is applied to prophecy, preterism is immediately disqualified. As I completely reject allegorical interpretations of Scripture as nothing less than the denial of God's promises to the people of Israel, I have nothing to say against Preterism itself. Why debate the finer points when the door that leads us to it should remain locked?

God bless
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Post by jerickson314 »

Jac3510 wrote:In the meantime, premill. disp. is new because the method is fairly new. The School of Antioch notwithstanding, the grammatical-historical method wasn't really used until the Reformers came upon the idea of the sufficiency and authority Scripture (sola scriptura, spelling right?).
God was writing primarily for his original audience, so he would certainly have told them what they needed to know in language they would interpret properly. Thus, if the grammatical-historical method is actually new, it ought to be discarded.

God would not communicate in such a way that correct teaching would only be understood by people centuries after the teachings were given.
Jac3510 wrote:The allegory method began with Philo and was popularized by Origen. It was Augustine who taught that Scripture must be interpreted in light of the Church, and thus, the allegorical method was sealed in place and used until the 1600's. Again, I'll expand more on this later.
Perhaps we put too much emphasis on using rigid methods for everything, rather than just looking at context and studying different viewpoints?

BTW, please interpret the following under grammatical-historical:
Isaiah 13:10 (WEB) wrote:For the stars of the sky and the constellations of it shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not cause its light to shine.
Note that it refers to a past judgment on Babylon. Read the context. Maybe we can take apocalyptic language as figurative after all.

Dee Dee Warren offers comments on interpretation here.
Jac3510 wrote:Where I disagree with you is that this can lead to an allegorical interpretation. It cannot, and it never does.
What about the Isaiah passage, and the passage Dee Dee Warren mentions in her TheologyWeb post? That's just getting started. Dee Dee offers more examples at the bottom of the page here.
Jac3510 wrote:Now, if the author is using figurative language, obviously, that goes into the process. When Jesus spoke True Vine, He wasn't saying He was a plant any more than Paul was saying that Israel is a literal tree and that we are literal branches grafted into it. Again, we take figurative language, be it symbolic or expressive, into account.
Good. If you didn't agree with that, I'd be worried.
Jac3510 wrote:In no case, though, does this let us take an allegorical approach to the interpretation of Scripture.
What about all the counterexamples mentioned before?
Jac3510 wrote:When Jesus says He will descend on the Mount of Olives, we believe that. When John says the Beast will require everyone to bear his mark, we believe that. When Isaiah says that the lion will lay down with the lamb and eat straw as the ox, we believe that.
Not necessarily.
Jac3510 wrote:At the risk of being pithy, the allegorical method is never right in interpretation, although it may have some Scriptural applications.
So pretty much all judgments on nations that actually have past fulfillments are going to have future double fulfillments? In order to avoid allegorizing apocalyptic language mentioned in the numerous passages I've brought up (many in Dee Dee Warren's writings), you'd have to make this wild and unusual interpretation.
Jac3510 wrote:On the flip side, the grammatical-historical method, when applied properly, always is both correct and yields the correct interpretation.
I wouldn't say that one particular method is always correct, if it rules out a proiri certain interpretations.
Jac3510 wrote:The point I was making is that language is expected to be understood. Now, I can, and later will, show that prophecy is meant to be taken just as literally as that business letter. However, in the meantime, it is sufficient to point to the fact that, if the allegorist believes the standard culture of ancient times was to take all prophecy allegorically, then it is up to him to prove as much.
I'm not claiming that the culture was to take it all allegorically, but I am claiming that it was to take some of it allegorically, as past judgment prophesies prove.
Jac3510 wrote:It is extremely obvious that ancient Jews expected both an earthly Messiah and an earthly Kingdom (and they'll get that one of these days!). This is enough to prove that the culture was one that worked with literal interpretations, thus, invalidating your arguments.
It invalidates only a straw man of my arguments, the claim that all prophesy is to be taken allegorically.
Jac3510 wrote:Again, I will develop this line of thought more when I further explain the grammatical-historical method in my reply to Puritan. I will, at that time, outline both the history of the literal and allegorical method.
You're advocating particular prescribed rigid methology rather than open-mindedness, again.
Jac3510 wrote:Just as in modern times, we wouldn't take a business letter as an allegory and yet would take a strict allegory as such (i.e., The Pilgrim's Progress), in ancient times, the Jew would not have taken prophecy as allegory. There are instances in both modern and Hebrew poetry where allegory is employed. There is a great difference in interpreting an allegory verses allegorizing a literal text. There are clear instances of allegory in both the NT and OT. But when we explain these, we are not employing the allegorical method. We are employing the grammatical-historical method, for we recognize that the literary context is one of figurative speech, and we treat it as such. This is far different, again, from taking a literal passage and interpreting it allegorically, as Replacement Theologians do.
What about all the numerous judgment passages that use similar allegorical imagery (such as the sun not shining), and use the same imagery that Jesus uses in New Testament prophesy? Prophesies that all have allegorical fulfillment, with the interpretation of these ideas as imagery of judgment.
Jac3510 wrote:So, I believe that God revealed His plan for mankind using plain, literal, normal language. It is sadly our own interpretive devices that have brought so much confusion.
No, most preterist interpretations are based on OT precedents such as Isaiah 13:10. Not on modern interpretive devices.
Jac3510 wrote:As I noted, extreme allegorization has been rejected, but this has been a fairly recent event due in large part to the Reformers. The point relates to the method itself as it is applied to the interpretation of Scriptures. The question we are primarily interested in is the proper hermeneutical approach to eschatology. Replacement Theologians are forced to apply an allegorical method, a method which has been long ago discredited.
Why the false dilemma between two rigid methods?
Jac3510 wrote:Now, if we don't want to exaggerate and make the same point, what we can actually say is that the allegorical method does not provide any hard and fast rules by which interpretation is limited. There are rules that can be set up, of course, by a particular interpreter. For instance, one may say that the method can only be applied to prophecy, and thus, the interpretations must be in line with other Scripture taken literally. Another may say that plainer texts must serve as the limiters for the more difficult, and thus further allegorized, texts. The point is that, within the method itself, there is no particular limiter. That is, the authority for interpretation lies within the interpreter himself (or herself ;)).
Well, if there is a limitation within the method, then the authority for interpretation lies with the creators of the method - still fallible human beings. The situation is not in any way improved.

There is also a consistent method used in the preterist camp - looking for precedents, especially within the Old Testament, of similar language in use. It's often called "letting the Bible interpret the Bible."
Jac3510 wrote:On the flip side, there are very strong limiters inherent within the grammatical-historical method. Disagreements between interpretations result from only a few things. A lack of knowledge related to the context is usually at the root of these differences, but at other times, ambiguous phrases that could be literally taken in more than one way can result in differences as well (classic example: what does yom mean in Gen. 1?).
In other words, the creators of the method are the new dicators, rather than the interpreters themselves. Since when does this make a difference?
Jac3510 wrote:Why do I assert that all prophecy should be taken literally? The answer is that I believe that all Scripture should be taken literally. As prophecy is a part of Scripture, any prophetic Scripture should be taken literally.
Dee Dee mentioned 2 Samuel 22:8-13. Take this literally? I don't necessarily agree with a prophesy/non-prophesy distinction any more than you do.
Jac3510 wrote:A few things here. First, note that the limit you have applied is not inherent to the method itself. You are advocating a historical-allegorical method. In fact, like most (if not all) Reformed Theologians (and most Replacement Theologians as well), you probably thoroughly adhere to the grammatical-historical method as it relates to narrative. You simply change your method when approaching eschatological issues. There is actually a reason for this that I'll cover in my post to Puritan. The sneak peak is that it relates to a lack of formal eschatology among Supersessionists in general.
I do not advocate any particular rigid method.
Jac3510 wrote:The problem was, when it came to the mark, he claimed allegory. And why? Because he is not allowed to take it literally.
Only because we have historical fulfillment surrounding a reasonable interpretation of the surrounding text, so it would be logical to assume that the mark is somehow related. And if this doesn't fit literal events, it probably has figurative meaning.
Jac3510 wrote:As a result, the method is actually, "Take it literal when possible, but when not, allegorize it." How do you decide when something is not allowable? The answer can only be when it is at odds with the presupposed theological system!
I believe the idea is more complicated than that.
Jac3510 wrote:As before, you are under obligation to prove that the ancient culture took prophecy allegorically.
I linked to some writings by Dee Dee Warren that do so quite effectively, though not for the claim that all prophesy is allegorical, a claim I'm not making.
Jac3510 wrote:It can be demonstrated very easily that this is not the case, as I will do in my reply to Puritan. In the meantime, I thoroughly expect you to provide references clearly showing that ancient Israel regarded prophecy, as a genre, to be allegorical.
I'm not about to defend a position I don't agree with, the position that all prophesy is allegorical.

I'd like to see you defend the grammatical-historical method for past judgments, and then explain why the technique works differently when the exact same wording is used in New Testament passages such as the Olivet Discourse.
Jac3510 wrote:Funny thing about the key word "we" is that I meant it in terms of humanity as a whole, and not as "21st century American readers."
"Humanity as a whole" is not a monolithich bloc.
Jac3510 wrote:It may help you to note that many have objected to the phraseology behind "literal method" and "allegorical method." I would agree with these critics. By far, better terminology would be the "plain or normal method" verses the "mystical or spiritual method." So, in those terms, do I take sonnets literally (or normally, or plainly)? The answer is yes, especially as compared to the question, 'Do you take sonnets allegorically (or mystically or spiritually)?'.
Terminology is a moot point, as it's a false dilemma in the first place.
Jac3510 wrote:As for preterism, I have no need to debate it in this thread. Of course, certain points will come up, but the beauty is that the moment the grammatical-historical method is applied to prophecy, preterism is immediately disqualified. As I completely reject allegorical interpretations of Scripture as nothing less than the denial of God's promises to the people of Israel, I have nothing to say against Preterism itself. Why debate the finer points when the door that leads us to it should remain locked?
First, you'd have to demonstrate that the grammatical-historical method has more of a problem with preterism than with past judgment prophesies.
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Post by Jac3510 »

God was writing primarily for his original audience, so he would certainly have told them what they needed to know in language they would interpret properly. Thus, if the grammatical-historical method is actually new, it ought to be discarded.

God would not communicate in such a way that correct teaching would only be understood by people centuries after the teachings were given.
I have to learn to watch my answers better. I'm leaving too much ambiguity . . . not being "literal" enough ;). The method of interpretation is fairly new, insofar as it is referred to as the grammatical-historical method. I will demonstrate Sunday or Monday that the principles that the method is built on have been around since ancient Judaism. For all intents and purposes, it is the allegorical method that is new and should be rejected.

Now, I agree with your statement that God would not communicate in a way that could not be understood by the original audience. That is, in fact, the first rule of hermeneutics: a text cannot mean something today that it could not have meant to the original readers. It is this understanding that lays the foundation for a contextual, and thus historical, understanding of interpretation.
So pretty much all judgments on nations that actually have past fulfillments are going to have future double fulfillments? In order to avoid allegorizing apocalyptic language mentioned in the numerous passages I've brought up (many in Dee Dee Warren's writings), you'd have to make this wild and unusual interpretation.
Not necessarily, although many do have double references. I'll cover this is some detail in my analysis of the grammatical-historical method.
I wouldn't say that one particular method is always correct, if it rules out a proiri certain interpretations.
That sounds very nice on the surface, but it doesn't work in actual theology. Would you ever support a theory based on a purely humanistic understanding of biblical origins? Such a theory inevitably leads to such dogmas as Crossan's views relating to the resurrection of Christ (or lack-there-of, in this case). If, though, we accept the Bible as the inspired word of God, then certain intepretations are ruled out a priori. Nothing wrong with that. The question we have to deal with is our basic presuppostions.

Now, let's take this argument one step further. Not only is it impracticle, it's also flat fallicious. You are testing your presuppositions against a predetermined interpretation. Suppose, then, I have concluded that Nero most definitely was not the beast. I would be forced, a priori, to reject both the preterist view, and in this case, the preterist method. We both can agree that is not the way to establish a proper hermeneutic. You don't start with interpretation and move backwards to exposition and back again to hermeneutical assumptions, which is exactly what you are inadvertandly advocating.

Again, we need to deal with the hermeneutical issues first and foremost.
I'm not claiming that the culture was to take it all allegorically, but I am claiming that it was to take some of it allegorically, as past judgment prophesies prove. (and related quotes)
I'll cover this more in my later replies. In the meantime, again, I am dealing with methodology. We have to decide on how to interpret prophecy as a genre. I reject the possibility that it can or should be allegorized. You don't. As a result, you find that prophecy, in general, can be allegorized. You have to come up with a mechanism that separates that which is to be literally interpreted from that which is to be allegorically interpreted by the original audience. Therefore, historical fulfillment--or the lack there of--cannot be the device. Further, note that I am not asking for a device to determine what is allegory and what is literal. I am asking for a device to determine the method of interpretation of a particular passage. "Do I allegorize this text, or do I take it literally?"

My rule is very simple: never allegorize. Always take what you read literally. If you are reading an allegory, then interpret as an allegory, but do not allegorize.
Why the false dilemma between two rigid methods?
There is no false dilemma. I am asserting a basic rule that is exclusive in nature. "All Scripture is to be interpreted by the literal method." As a result, I reject the notion that any Scripture can EVER be allegorized, because it is at direct odds with the rule presented.

Again, I will demonstrate in the near future the truth and implications of that statement.
Well, if there is a limitation within the method, then the authority for interpretation lies with the creators of the method - still fallible human beings. The situation is not in any way improved.

There is also a consistent method used in the preterist camp - looking for precedents, especially within the Old Testament, of similar language in use. It's often called "letting the Bible interpret the Bible."
This is both true and not true. The method is only as good as the principles on which it is built. I argue, and will do so in detail, that God Himself is the author of the principles on which the grammatical-historical method is founded. Man, though, is the author the principles on which the allegorical method is founded.

I'll deal with your "let the Bible interpret the Bible" quip in my paper.
I do not advocate any particular rigid method.
No, and I don't think you do. It would be foolish of anyone to say, "All Scripture is to be taken allegorically." But, on the flip side, you do have a rigid method, however you particularly define it. You believe in looking at the historical context and other limiters, and from there, you determine what method should be applied. That, my friend, is rigid, because it tells you how to do what you are tryng to do, and there is nothing wrong with that.
First, you'd have to demonstrate that the grammatical-historical method has more of a problem with preterism than with past judgment prophesies.
Easily done, and will be.

As for the passages you mentioned, all of them are very easy to handle, but I won't do so at the moment. I will, however, use them as examples in my in-depth defense of the grammatical-historical method, which will also explicity show the defects in any kind of allegorical method. Thanks for the examples . . . some are quite good :)

God bless

(no time for a spell check)
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Post by Jac3510 »

Grr . . .

I had a reply posted up but I decided to redo it. I'm in classes all day, so late Wednesday . . .

God bless
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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