Need help with a Bible "Contradiction"

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Mastermind
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Need help with a Bible "Contradiction"

#1

Post by Mastermind » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:45 pm

LK 1:15 John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit from before his birth or the birth of Jesus.
LK 1:41 Elizabeth had it long before Jesus went away.
LK 1:67 So did Zechariah.
LK 2:25 So did Simeon.
LK 11:13 It is obtained by prayer (presumably at any time).
JN 7:39, JN 16:7, AC 1:3-5 The Holy Spirit cannot come into the world until after Jesus has departed.

John 7:39 seems pretty solid, although the other two mentioned are unreliable at best. Any ideas?

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#2

Post by Kurieuo » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:28 pm

Was the Holy Spirit available to "all people" before Christ ascended? I believe the answer may lay within this question.

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"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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#3

Post by Mastermind » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:31 pm

Actually, me and my friend figured it out.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:17 Explains it perfectly. He is within everybody. It is up to us to accept Him, and I guess the world needs Jesus to know this. I should listen to my own advice and read verses in context.

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#4

Post by Jac3510 » Fri Dec 03, 2004 10:27 pm

Mastermind wrote:He is within everybody. It is up to us to accept Him, and I guess the world needs Jesus to know this. I should listen to my own advice and read verses in context.
I hope you don't mind me picking on this a bit, but this is the type of thing that can get into really, really incorrect thinking. I don't know exactly how you meant to say this, hense, the attempt at clarification.

I'm not much a fan of the KJV, but even this wording doesn't say the HS in everyone. It says He dwells with (Gr. para, lit. "near to" or "in the vicinity of") us, and that He would be in the disciples. God only indwells believers. He is near all people, for it is in this way that He convicts the world of Truth, but He is only in the Christian.

So, I don't know if you really meant that the Holy Spirit was in the unbeliever or if it just came out wrong, but I wanted to bring that up just in case . . .
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.

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#5

Post by Mastermind » Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:21 pm

I wasn't too sure(I hate KJB too but meh) about what it means either, but you clarified it even further. Thanks.

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Question

#6

Post by Christian2 » Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:54 pm

The Holy Spirit cannot come into the world until after Jesus has departed.
Why was it necessary that Jesus depart in order for the comforter (Holy Spirit) to come?

Thanks.

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Re: Question

#7

Post by RGeeB » Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:19 am

Christian2 wrote:
The Holy Spirit cannot come into the world until after Jesus has departed.
Why was it necessary that Jesus depart in order for the comforter (Holy Spirit) to come?

Thanks.
I think Jesus meant it more like - 'I'm going away, but don't worry, I'll send the comforter'.

That raises a question - Why didn't Jesus continue to stay on Earth? That would have made it much easier for people to believe in Him. Or maybe, it wouldn't have made much difference. Now that Jesus has taken the right hand of the Heavenly Throne, he is also preparing 'rooms' for believers to dwell.

Having freewill co-exist with pre-destination is scary! Are there any testimonies of the Holy Spirit's communication before a person believed in God/Jesus?
Maranatha!

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#8

Post by Anonymous » Wed Jan 05, 2005 10:52 pm

Ok, first and foremost, the term comforter does not even come close to meaning 'Holy Spirit". (and for the record, I am not a muslim, I am a christian)

John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever"

John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me"

John 14:26 "But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

John 16:7-14 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you

n these four verses, the word "comforter" is translated from the word "Paraclete" ("Ho Parakletos" in Greek). Parakletos in Greek is interpreted as "an advocate", one who pleads the cause of another, one who councils or advises another from deep concern for the other's welfare (Beacon Bible commentary volume VII, p.168). In these verses we are told that once Jesus departs, a Paraclete will come. He will glorify Jesus , and he will guide mankind into all truth. This "Paraclete" is identified in John 14:26 as the Holy Ghost.

It must be pointed out that the original Greek manuscripts speak of a "Holy pneuma." The word pneuma {pnyoo'-mah} is the Greek root word for "spirit." There is no separate word for "Ghost" in the Greek manuscripts, of which there are claimed to be over 24,000 today. The translators of the King James Version of the Bible translate this word as "Ghost" to convey their own personal understanding of the text. However, a more accurate translation is "Holy Spirit." More faithful and recent translations of the Bible, such as the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), do indeed now translate it as "Holy Spirit." This is significant, and will be expounded upon shortly.

All Bibles in existence today are compiled from "ancient manuscripts," the most ancient of which being those of the fourth century C.E. Any scholar of the Bible will tell us that no two ancient manuscripts are exactly identical. All Bibles in our possession today are the result of extensive cutting and pasting from these various manuscripts with no single one being the definitive reference.

What the translators of the Bible have done when presented with such discrepancies is to do their best to choose the correct version. In other words, since they can not know which "ancient manuscript" is the correct one, they must do a little detective work on the text in order to decide which "version" of a given verse to accept. John 14:26 is just such an example of such selection techniques.

John 14:26 is the only verse of the Bible which associates the Parakletos with the Holy Spirit. But if we were to go back to the "ancient manuscripts" themselves, we would find that they are not all in agreement that the "Parakletos" is the Holy Spirit. For instance, in the famous the Codex Syriacus, written around the fifth century C.E., and discovered in 1812 on Mount Sinai by Mrs.Agnes S. Lewis (and Mrs. Bensley), the text of 14:26 reads; "Paraclete, the Spirit"; and not "Paraclete, the Holy Spirit.".

Very Important Point: A "Spirit" in the New Testament is a human Prophet. Therefore, Jesus had predicted the comming of a human Prophet (spirit) after him and not the Holy Spirit. Jesus would not have used the word "he" for the Holy Spirit. He would have used "it" instead in John 14:26 above. Read 1 John 4:1-3 below:

There had been many cases of deliberate modification of the Biblical text by members of the Christian clergy themselves, as well as deliberate large scale projects to "correct" the Bible, and the writings of "the early fathers," (such as the deliberate insertion of the verse of 1 John 5:7 which is now universally discarded)

1) The word "Holy" could have been dropped by a careless copyist., or

2) Someone could have inserted the word "Holy" to convey his personal understanding of the text.

Which was it? In order to arrive at the answer we must follow the same path of detective work the Biblical scholars themselves do. We must study the characteristics of the "Paraclete" and compare them to both the "Holy Spirit" and to a "Spirit." .

1) Christian scholars see evidence of tampering, especailly with the word "Spirit":

In the famous "Anchor Bible" we find the following quote: "The word parakletos is peculiar in the NT to the Johnannine literature. In John ii Jesus is a parakletos (not a title), serving as a heavenly intercessor with the Father ... Christian tradition has identified this figure (Paraclete) as the Holy Spirit, but scholars like Spitta, Delafosse, Windisch, Sasse, Bultmann, and Betz have doubted whether this identification is true to the original picture and have suggested that the Paraclete was once an independent salvific figure, later confused with the Holy Spirit." (The Anchor Bible, Doubleday & Company, Inc, Garden City, N.Y. 1970, Volume 29A, p. 1135)

mportant Note: The Greek word translated as "hear" in the Biblical verses ("whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak") is the Greek word "akouo" {ak-oo'-o} meaning to perceive sounds. It has, for instance, given us the word "acoustics," the science of sounds. Similarly the verb "to speak" is the Greek verb "laleo" {lal-eh'-o} which has the general meaning "to emit sounds" and the specific meaning "to speak." This verb occurs very frequently in the Greek text of the Gospels. It designates a solemn declaration by Jesus (peace be upon him) during his preachings (For example Matthew 9:18). Obviously these verbs require hearing and speech organs in order to facilitate them. There is a distinct difference between someone "inspiring" something and him "speaking" something. So the Paraclete will "hear" and "speak," not "inspire."

As for the whether or not the Holy Spirit existed before Christ, let us look at some scriptures:

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

1 Samuel 10:10 "And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them."

1 Samuel 11:6 "And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly."

"Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?" (Isaiah 63:11)

"For he (John the Baptist) shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb." (Luke 1:15)

"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee." (Luke 1:35)

"And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost" (Luke 1:41)

"And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying," (Luke 1:67)

"And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him." (Luke 2:25)

"And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost (Simeon), that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ." (Luke 2:26)

"And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him (Jesus), and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased." (Luke 3:22)

"Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost." (John 20:21-22)

Did they or did they not already receive the Holy Ghost? Was Jesus (peace be upon him) not still with them when they received the Holy Ghost? Was the Holy Ghost not with Simeon, Mary, Elisabeth and Zacharias before the birth of Jesus (peace be upon him)? Was the Holy Ghost not with Moses (peace be upon him) when he parted the seas? There are many more similar verses to be found in the Bible. In the above verses, we are told that if Jesus (peace be upon him) does not depart then the "parakletos" will not come. Thus, the "Holy Ghost" cannot be the one originally intended since it was already with them. The contradiction is quite obvious

The word "Paraclete" is applied to Jesus (peace be upon him) himself in 1 John 2:1

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate(parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." (1 John 2:1)

Notice how the translators have managed to translate this exact same word one way (advocate) in reference to Jesus (peace be upon him) and another (comforter) with regard to the coming "parakletos." Why would they want to do such a thing? The reason is that the translators did not want the Christians, after reading

"we have an advocate(parakletos) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"

to then read

"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another advocate(parakletos)."

Can we see why this would make them nervous?

Well, what was Jesus (peace be upon him)? He was a prophet! Read:

"...This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee." (Matthew 21:11) and "..Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people" (Luke 24:19:).

Now go back to John 14:16 and notice the words "another Paraclete." If the comforter is the Holy Ghost then how many Holy Ghost's are there? The word "another" is significant. We have already seen how this term is applied to Jesus (peace be upon him) himself. In English, "another" may mean "One more of the same kind" or "one more of a different kind." If the latter were the one intended then the current Christian interpretation might bear some merit. However, if "One more of the same kind" was what was intended then this is positive proof that the coming Paraclete would be just like Jesus (peace be upon him), a human being and a prophet, not a ghost. The actual Greek word used was the word "allon" which is the masculine accusative form of "allos" {al'-los}: "Another of the SAME kind." The Greek word for "another of a different kind" is "heteros" {het'-er-os}.

VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: Some scholars believe that what Jesus (peace be upon him) said in his own Aramaic tongue in these verses represents more closely the Greek word "Periklytos" which means the admirable or glorified one. This word corresponds exactly to the Arabic word "Muhammad" which also means the "admired one" or "glorified one." In other words, "Periklytos" is "Muhammad" in Greek. There are several similar documented cases of similar word substitution in the Bible. It is also quite possible that both words were contained in the original text but were dropped by a copyist because of the ancient custom of writing words closely packed, with no spaces in-between them. In such a case the original reading would have been: "and He will give you another comforter(Parakletos), the admirable one(Periklytos)" (See examples of many similar cases in the Biblical text in "The Emphatic Diaglott").

Notice the use of "he" when referring to the Paraclete and not "it." If we read John 16:13, we will find no less than SEVEN occurrences of the masculine pronoun "He" and "Himself." There is not another verse in the 66 books of the Protestant Bible or the seventy three books of the Catholic Bible which contains seven masculine pronouns, or seven feminine pronouns, or even seven neuter genders. So many masculine pronouns ill befits a ghost, holy or otherwise. The word "Spirit" (Greek, pneu'ma), is of a neutral gender and is always referred to by the pronoun "it."

Enjoy.

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#9

Post by RGeeB » Thu Jan 06, 2005 2:00 am

ss, what's your system of having union with God?

..and what is the 'Comforter' by your definition? (Maybe its in your post above, but its hidden from me!)
Maranatha!

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The Comforter

#10

Post by Christian2 » Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:35 am

Post moved to new topic by author.

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