Cain, Noah and Agriculture

Discussions about the Bible, and any issues raised by Scripture.
DBowling
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Re: Cain, Noah and Agriculture

#16

Post by DBowling » Sat May 12, 2018 1:23 pm

Philip wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 12:29 pm
So, DB - as an enormous amount of study, research and wide-ranging and often contentious opinions have raged over this question, why do you think the text wasn't given in a way so as to have made it crystal clear - to the point the issue would have no reasonable debate? Because there is no way God didn't foresee the modern era of science and that the debate would take up so much time and effort.
Good question! :D

Sometimes I think things would be so much simpler if "Sacred Tradition" really was infallible.
However, situations like this remind me that all people are fallible.

Jesus was the only perfect person who ever lived.
Everyone else, including scholars and heroes of the faith that I respect and look up to... and myself as well, is fallible and capable of error.
This means that I need to look to God for ultimate truth, and be like the Bereans who fact-checked even the Apostle Paul of all people to see if what he was teaching lined up with Scripture.

And I do think "the journey" does bring us closer to God and his truth, as we spend time delving into his Word.

Which reminds me of my mother since tomorrow is Mother's Day.

My dad is a brilliant Biblical scholar, but Biblical research, teaching, and preaching is what he "did for a living".
There are two things burned in my brain about my mom:
1. Every year she would read through the Bible in a different translation. Every morning I could count on seeing her reading that day's portion of Scripture in her reading plan.
2. Then there was good old J Vernon McGee and his Through the Bible in Five Years program which was on the radio every day.
My mom showed me what it looks like to love to spend time in God's Word even though it was not part of her professional vocation.

I will never be anywhere close to the Biblical scholar my dad is, and I also fall short of my mom's example of what it looks like in real life to love God's Word.
But I do think my parent's examples have given me the desire to be a Berean, and when I find myself struggling with some of these issues to do my best to search out what God's Word really says.

Philip
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Re: Cain, Noah and Agriculture

#17

Post by Philip » Sat May 12, 2018 3:52 pm

But I do think my parent's examples have given me the desire to be a Berean, and when I find myself struggling with some of these issues to do my best to search out what God's Word really says.
Thanks, DB. Obviously I have my own opinions as to why God left such grand mysteries - things which have complexity, many things to consider, to contrast against other Scripture or knowledge

I think he wants us to struggle with the text - not just for deeper understandings to whatever issue of our interest, but that while on our paths to discovering truth, He wants teach us many other things as we begin to see the incredible layers and tapestry of meanings and other connective truths inherent in Scripture. And some of what He wants to teach us appears to be that for us to discover that sometimes, whatever we often think is a big, honking deal to understand (like the length of time of the Creation days), is actually very secondary to the far bigger things He wants us to understand about Him, and of what He wants of and for us. I think God's unsolvable conundrums have a purpose in that what we learn during our journeys of seeking answers is actually much more important than answering whatever big question we have been relentlessly driven to discover.

Also, with many Scripturally literate people having a range of views on the same issues, there is an element of "iron sharpening iron," particularly as newer and younger Bible students tend to have many misconceptions about Scripture, and often, even about the nature of God Himself.

Lastly, I think God wants Believers to learn how to show grace and patience to each other, as we debate or seek answers - that our quests of curiosity are not nearly as important as are our relationships with other believers, and how we treat them, and model humility, and civility, etc.

Obviously, there are some mysteries God wants us to ponder, but hasn't yet provided answers to.

thatkidakayoungguy
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Re: Cain, Noah and Agriculture

#18

Post by thatkidakayoungguy » Thu May 24, 2018 11:03 pm

ForeverFaithful wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 9:29 pm
Hello everyone,

I used to read this website all the time when I was in highschool and am very happy to have found it once again. I was recently reading Genesis and struggling to understand something. In these two passages the problem lies:

Genesis 4:2 Later she [Eve] gave birth to another son, Abel. Abel became a shepherd, but Cain was a farmer.

Genesis 9:20 Noah, who was a farmer, was the first man to plant a vineyard.

So here's my issue. If we grant the extended human history of a Progressive Old Earth Creationism, it would seem that the time of Adam's sons and the Deluge are both long before agriculture as archaeologists traditionally understand it.

How do we then understand these verses?
Easy: they were ahead of their time.

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Re: Cain, Noah and Agriculture

#19

Post by DBowling » Fri May 25, 2018 8:30 am

thatkidakayoungguy wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 11:03 pm
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 9:29 pm
Hello everyone,

I used to read this website all the time when I was in highschool and am very happy to have found it once again. I was recently reading Genesis and struggling to understand something. In these two passages the problem lies:

Genesis 4:2 Later she [Eve] gave birth to another son, Abel. Abel became a shepherd, but Cain was a farmer.

Genesis 9:20 Noah, who was a farmer, was the first man to plant a vineyard.

So here's my issue. If we grant the extended human history of a Progressive Old Earth Creationism, it would seem that the time of Adam's sons and the Deluge are both long before agriculture as archaeologists traditionally understand it.

How do we then understand these verses?
Easy: they were ahead of their time.
I'm not sure it's quite that easy... :)

You still have the Genesis 4 problem which describes a culture and society that didn't exist until well after 10,000 BC.
And then there are the Genesis 5 and 11 genealogies, whose formulas do not allow for the gaps that are required to try and push Adam and/or Noah back to prehistoric times.

Genesis 4, 5, and 11 simply do not allow for that option.

ForeverFaithful
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Re: Cain, Noah and Agriculture

#20

Post by ForeverFaithful » Sun May 27, 2018 3:41 pm

DBowling wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 8:30 am
thatkidakayoungguy wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 11:03 pm
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 9:29 pm
Hello everyone,

I used to read this website all the time when I was in highschool and am very happy to have found it once again. I was recently reading Genesis and struggling to understand something. In these two passages the problem lies:

Genesis 4:2 Later she [Eve] gave birth to another son, Abel. Abel became a shepherd, but Cain was a farmer.

Genesis 9:20 Noah, who was a farmer, was the first man to plant a vineyard.

So here's my issue. If we grant the extended human history of a Progressive Old Earth Creationism, it would seem that the time of Adam's sons and the Deluge are both long before agriculture as archaeologists traditionally understand it.

How do we then understand these verses?
Easy: they were ahead of their time.
I'm not sure it's quite that easy... :)

You still have the Genesis 4 problem which describes a culture and society that didn't exist until well after 10,000 BC.
And then there are the Genesis 5 and 11 genealogies, whose formulas do not allow for the gaps that are required to try and push Adam and/or Noah back to prehistoric times.

Genesis 4, 5, and 11 simply do not allow for that option.
That's not true. The Hebrew does allow for gaps, especially in light of Isaiah

https://www.academia.edu/26155223/Gaps_ ... s_5_and_11

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