Cain, Noah and Agriculture

Discussions about the Bible, and any issues raised by Scripture.
DBowling
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Re: Cain, Noah and Agriculture

#16

Post by DBowling » Sat May 12, 2018 1:23 pm

Philip wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 12:29 pm
So, DB - as an enormous amount of study, research and wide-ranging and often contentious opinions have raged over this question, why do you think the text wasn't given in a way so as to have made it crystal clear - to the point the issue would have no reasonable debate? Because there is no way God didn't foresee the modern era of science and that the debate would take up so much time and effort.
Good question! :D

Sometimes I think things would be so much simpler if "Sacred Tradition" really was infallible.
However, situations like this remind me that all people are fallible.

Jesus was the only perfect person who ever lived.
Everyone else, including scholars and heroes of the faith that I respect and look up to... and myself as well, is fallible and capable of error.
This means that I need to look to God for ultimate truth, and be like the Bereans who fact-checked even the Apostle Paul of all people to see if what he was teaching lined up with Scripture.

And I do think "the journey" does bring us closer to God and his truth, as we spend time delving into his Word.

Which reminds me of my mother since tomorrow is Mother's Day.

My dad is a brilliant Biblical scholar, but Biblical research, teaching, and preaching is what he "did for a living".
There are two things burned in my brain about my mom:
1. Every year she would read through the Bible in a different translation. Every morning I could count on seeing her reading that day's portion of Scripture in her reading plan.
2. Then there was good old J Vernon McGee and his Through the Bible in Five Years program which was on the radio every day.
My mom showed me what it looks like to love to spend time in God's Word even though it was not part of her professional vocation.

I will never be anywhere close to the Biblical scholar my dad is, and I also fall short of my mom's example of what it looks like in real life to love God's Word.
But I do think my parent's examples have given me the desire to be a Berean, and when I find myself struggling with some of these issues to do my best to search out what God's Word really says.

Philip
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Re: Cain, Noah and Agriculture

#17

Post by Philip » Sat May 12, 2018 3:52 pm

But I do think my parent's examples have given me the desire to be a Berean, and when I find myself struggling with some of these issues to do my best to search out what God's Word really says.
Thanks, DB. Obviously I have my own opinions as to why God left such grand mysteries - things which have complexity, many things to consider, to contrast against other Scripture or knowledge

I think he wants us to struggle with the text - not just for deeper understandings to whatever issue of our interest, but that while on our paths to discovering truth, He wants teach us many other things as we begin to see the incredible layers and tapestry of meanings and other connective truths inherent in Scripture. And some of what He wants to teach us appears to be that for us to discover that sometimes, whatever we often think is a big, honking deal to understand (like the length of time of the Creation days), is actually very secondary to the far bigger things He wants us to understand about Him, and of what He wants of and for us. I think God's unsolvable conundrums have a purpose in that what we learn during our journeys of seeking answers is actually much more important than answering whatever big question we have been relentlessly driven to discover.

Also, with many Scripturally literate people having a range of views on the same issues, there is an element of "iron sharpening iron," particularly as newer and younger Bible students tend to have many misconceptions about Scripture, and often, even about the nature of God Himself.

Lastly, I think God wants Believers to learn how to show grace and patience to each other, as we debate or seek answers - that our quests of curiosity are not nearly as important as are our relationships with other believers, and how we treat them, and model humility, and civility, etc.

Obviously, there are some mysteries God wants us to ponder, but hasn't yet provided answers to.

thatkidakayoungguy
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Re: Cain, Noah and Agriculture

#18

Post by thatkidakayoungguy » Thu May 24, 2018 11:03 pm

ForeverFaithful wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 9:29 pm
Hello everyone,

I used to read this website all the time when I was in highschool and am very happy to have found it once again. I was recently reading Genesis and struggling to understand something. In these two passages the problem lies:

Genesis 4:2 Later she [Eve] gave birth to another son, Abel. Abel became a shepherd, but Cain was a farmer.

Genesis 9:20 Noah, who was a farmer, was the first man to plant a vineyard.

So here's my issue. If we grant the extended human history of a Progressive Old Earth Creationism, it would seem that the time of Adam's sons and the Deluge are both long before agriculture as archaeologists traditionally understand it.

How do we then understand these verses?
Easy: they were ahead of their time.

DBowling
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Re: Cain, Noah and Agriculture

#19

Post by DBowling » Fri May 25, 2018 8:30 am

thatkidakayoungguy wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 11:03 pm
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 9:29 pm
Hello everyone,

I used to read this website all the time when I was in highschool and am very happy to have found it once again. I was recently reading Genesis and struggling to understand something. In these two passages the problem lies:

Genesis 4:2 Later she [Eve] gave birth to another son, Abel. Abel became a shepherd, but Cain was a farmer.

Genesis 9:20 Noah, who was a farmer, was the first man to plant a vineyard.

So here's my issue. If we grant the extended human history of a Progressive Old Earth Creationism, it would seem that the time of Adam's sons and the Deluge are both long before agriculture as archaeologists traditionally understand it.

How do we then understand these verses?
Easy: they were ahead of their time.
I'm not sure it's quite that easy... :)

You still have the Genesis 4 problem which describes a culture and society that didn't exist until well after 10,000 BC.
And then there are the Genesis 5 and 11 genealogies, whose formulas do not allow for the gaps that are required to try and push Adam and/or Noah back to prehistoric times.

Genesis 4, 5, and 11 simply do not allow for that option.

ForeverFaithful
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Re: Cain, Noah and Agriculture

#20

Post by ForeverFaithful » Sun May 27, 2018 3:41 pm

DBowling wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 8:30 am
thatkidakayoungguy wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 11:03 pm
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 9:29 pm
Hello everyone,

I used to read this website all the time when I was in highschool and am very happy to have found it once again. I was recently reading Genesis and struggling to understand something. In these two passages the problem lies:

Genesis 4:2 Later she [Eve] gave birth to another son, Abel. Abel became a shepherd, but Cain was a farmer.

Genesis 9:20 Noah, who was a farmer, was the first man to plant a vineyard.

So here's my issue. If we grant the extended human history of a Progressive Old Earth Creationism, it would seem that the time of Adam's sons and the Deluge are both long before agriculture as archaeologists traditionally understand it.

How do we then understand these verses?
Easy: they were ahead of their time.
I'm not sure it's quite that easy... :)

You still have the Genesis 4 problem which describes a culture and society that didn't exist until well after 10,000 BC.
And then there are the Genesis 5 and 11 genealogies, whose formulas do not allow for the gaps that are required to try and push Adam and/or Noah back to prehistoric times.

Genesis 4, 5, and 11 simply do not allow for that option.
That's not true. The Hebrew does allow for gaps, especially in light of Isaiah

https://www.academia.edu/26155223/Gaps_ ... s_5_and_11

DBowling
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Re: Cain, Noah and Agriculture

#21

Post by DBowling » Sun May 27, 2018 5:56 pm

ForeverFaithful wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 3:41 pm
DBowling wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 8:30 am
thatkidakayoungguy wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 11:03 pm
ForeverFaithful wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 9:29 pm
Hello everyone,

I used to read this website all the time when I was in highschool and am very happy to have found it once again. I was recently reading Genesis and struggling to understand something. In these two passages the problem lies:

Genesis 4:2 Later she [Eve] gave birth to another son, Abel. Abel became a shepherd, but Cain was a farmer.

Genesis 9:20 Noah, who was a farmer, was the first man to plant a vineyard.

So here's my issue. If we grant the extended human history of a Progressive Old Earth Creationism, it would seem that the time of Adam's sons and the Deluge are both long before agriculture as archaeologists traditionally understand it.

How do we then understand these verses?
Easy: they were ahead of their time.
I'm not sure it's quite that easy... :)

You still have the Genesis 4 problem which describes a culture and society that didn't exist until well after 10,000 BC.
And then there are the Genesis 5 and 11 genealogies, whose formulas do not allow for the gaps that are required to try and push Adam and/or Noah back to prehistoric times.

Genesis 4, 5, and 11 simply do not allow for that option.
That's not true. The Hebrew does allow for gaps, especially in light of Isaiah

https://www.academia.edu/26155223/Gaps_ ... s_5_and_11
You are incorrect...
The Isaiah 39 passage in the article does not speak at all to the unique genealogical formula used in Genesis 5 and Genesis 11.
The article does point out correctly that a number of genealogies in the Bible do allow for gaps (I'm not disputing that at all).
However, the unique formula used in the Genesis 5 and Genesis 11 genealogies does not allow for gaps, and no... the Hebrew of Genesis 5 and Genesis 11 does not allow for gaps any more than the English translation does.

A simple look at the text shows why no gaps are possible...
Let's look at Adam to Enosh (Genesis 5:3-8)
3 When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth. 4 Then the days of Adam after he became the father of Seth were eight hundred years, and he had other sons and daughters. 5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died.
6 Seth lived one hundred and five years, and became the father of Enosh. 7 Then Seth lived eight hundred and seven years after he became the father of Enosh, and he had other sons and daughters. 8 So all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years, and he died.
Show me where you think a gap is even remotely possible between Adam and Enosh based on the text...

DBowling
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Re: Cain, Noah and Agriculture

#22

Post by DBowling » Mon May 28, 2018 12:04 pm

Here is my best effort to identify the time frames for Adam and Noah's Flood based on the Genesis 5 and 11 Genealogies.

Primary sources are the Masoretic text and the Septuagint text of the Genesis 5 and 11 Genealogies.
I also consider Luke 3 as a primary source for resolving the difference between the Masoretic and Septuagint texts regarding the existence of Cainan in the Genesis 11 genealogy.
I used Josephus (who wrote his History of the Jews around 90 AD) as a secondary source for reconciling specific numbers that differ between the Masoretic and Septuagint texts.
- When Josephus agrees with the Masoretic text number I go with the Masoretic text.
- When Josephus agrees with the Septuagint number I go with the Septuagint.

Also
Genesis 5:32 does not tell us how old Noah was when he became the father of Shem. Genesis 5:32 tells that Noah was 500 years old when he had the first of his sons (Japheth). We have to dig a little deeper into Genesis 5-11 to determine that Noah was 502 years old when he became the father of Shem.
Similarly, Genesis 11:26 does not tell us how old Terah was when he became the father of Abram. Genesis 11:26 tells us that Terah was 70 years old when he became the father of his first born, but Abram was not the first born son of Terah. We have to analyse other Scriptures to discover that Terah was 130 years old when he became the father of Abram.

That said... below is my best attempt at a consolidation of the time frames for the genealogy from Adam to Abraham as described in Genesis 5 and 11.

Adam lived 230 years, and became the father of Seth
Seth lived 205 years, and became the father of Enosh
Enosh lived 190 years, and became the father of Cainan
Cainan lived 170 years, and became the father of Mahalalel
Mahalalel lived 165 years, and became the father of Jared
Jared lived 162 years, and became the father of Enoch
Enoch lived 165 years, and became the father of Methuselah
Methuselah lived 187 years, and became the father of Lamech
Lamech lived 182 years, and became the father of Noah
Noah lived 502 years, and became the father of Shem
Shem lived 100 years, and became the father of Arphaxad
Arphaxad lived 135 years, and became the father of Cainan
Cainan lived 130 years, and became the father of Shelah
Shelah lived 130 years, and became the father of Eber
Eber lived 134 years, and became the father of Peleg
Peleg lived 130 years, and became the father of Reu
Reu lived 132 years, and became the father of Serug
Serug lived 130 years, and became the father of Nahor
Nahor lived 179 years, and became the father of Terah
Terah lived 130 years, and became the father of Abram

If my above analysis is correct, then...
The time from Adam to the Flood was 2256 years
The time from The Flood to Abraham was 1232 years

If Abraham lived around 1900 BC, then...
Noah's Flood occurred around 3132 BC
Adam lived around 5388 BC

And these time frames for Noah's Flood and the Biblical Adam are consistent with the extraScriptural time frames we find for a Mesopotamian Deluge and a legendary "Adapa" from Mesopotamian history/legend.

Philip
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Re: Cain, Noah and Agriculture

#23

Post by Philip » Mon May 28, 2018 1:25 pm

Although I don't know all of these listeds' birth orders, we see a gradual drop in the age of the fathers and their offspring noted. And while we don't know the age differences between Noah's oldest, Japheth, and Shem, his son listed in this descendants list, Noah bucks that descending age at the fathering of key sons, as he was 502 when Shem was born. And after Noah, the drop off in ages of the fathers really falls significantly. Also intriguing, these are merely some of the offspring mentioned - as who knows how many more each father had.

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