Let us make make man in our image.

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
SaintConfused
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Re: Let us make make man in our image.

#16

Post by SaintConfused » Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:56 am

C2,
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now,
lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever. Gen. 3:22
Even though Elohim represents more than one deity (correct me if I'm wrong), it isn't defined as these
other 'gods' being part of the One God. They are separated from his Oneness, they aren't Him (singular).
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that
they may not understand one another's speech. Gen. 11:7
Well if we're going to assume this is trinity-based, you would be saying Jesus, 'The Father', and the Holy Ghost have schemed against their own 'creation'
by causing confusion and destroying the one-language (whatever it was). I'm not sure about anyone else, but this verse in it's own context, gives a 'bad
image' too the Trinity as it is.
And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. Isaiah 6:8
A singular God with many hosts, am I missing something?
In regards to Gen. 1:26, those who deny the Trinity say that God when God says, 'Let Us make.' He is speaking with the angels in
mind. The problem with this is that angels do not create. There is absolutely no biblical evidence that angels created anything at all.
I see that 'us' as a ripple effect of being both created and capable of creating further, still one God or stone in which the ripple is caused from. As in,
God creates angels to share his 'image' in Heaven, then he brings it down too Earth and each angel has it's own governing role for the 'image' of God.
The angels do not have to 'create', 'making' consists of using what's already there (the element Earth, the spirit of God, life, air, water, etc). God has
already created, 'making' is something any angel can do at the whim of the one God. For instance, the flaming sword recorded in Genesis 3:24. God
created the material, the angel could have 'made' it with a blessing to keep the Garden defended, etc. I see no problems with the issue as you've said.
Of course the angels didn't 'create' anything, this doesn't mean they cannot 'make' out of what's already created. Angelic 'Order', is depicted
as maintaining things, not 'creating' anything new or unique and it cannot happen without the authority of God (the one).
We see in Isaiah 44:24, 'Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone.' God made all things alone. Therefore, the 'us' in 'Let Us make man in our image' cannot be the angels. Furthermore, people are not created in the image of angels, but of God.
The 'us' can be the angels, they are high ranked sentient celestial entities, all they need is God's permission. Much like Jesus himself, but
a trinity isn't evident in either Genesis or Isaiah. Angels are 'primary' images of God, humans are 'secondary'. Well, it's plausible, at least.
Deut Chapter 13:1-6 All this word which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. If there arise in the midst of thee a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams-and he give thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto thee-saying: 'Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them'; thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God putteth you to proof, to know whether ye do love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. After the LORD your God shall ye walk, and Him shall ye fear, and His commandments shall ye keep, and unto His voice shall ye hearken, and Him shall ye serve, and unto Him shall ye cleave. And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken perversion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.
Since the Israelites have not been taught of the Trinity, they have this reason, by the law of God to not accept such.
They cannot be dismissed by the assumption that God is speaking of himself in a type of third person way.
I can speak of myself in first, second, and third person, this does not make me a Trinity.
He says, 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?' This is on the unusual construction. The singular speaker refers to himself in the plural.
Even though I and us are obvious a switch from one too more than one. It does not say: 'who will go for my other self?' or anything like that. Us, although God is one, he has a lot of hosts in Heaven and they can easily 'follow' his spirit or a manifestation of him down on Earth who doesn't necessarily have to always be Jesus. Consider El-ijah, Jo-El, etc. God is within his people.
The covenant is eternal.
Psalm 119:152 Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever.
Psalm 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.
You were the Chosen One! It was said you would destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness!~Obi-Wan Kenobi.

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Re: Let us make make man in our image.

#17

Post by cslewislover » Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:03 am

FFC wrote:
John 14:

7"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."
8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."

9Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Yes, as you read the bible, you learn that the God of the OT was "father." He was also creator, and had human features as well as being spirit, so both the Father and Christ (if not the Holy Spirit, too) are brought to mind. But I think it's clear, from what Jesus said here, that the Jews thought of God as God the Father.

Saintconfused, I posted this in your introduction thread, but here's the link to the new trinity discussion thread:
http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=33317

To me, it doesn't matter whatsoever that the Israelites didn't have a clear concept of the trinity. That was obviously made more clear by Jesus and what he revealed during His time on earth with us.

Thanks for your post, christian2, it was concise and helpful!
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Re: Let us make make man in our image.

#18

Post by SaintConfused » Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:04 pm

cslewislover wrote:To me, it doesn't matter whatsoever that the Israelites didn't have a clear concept of the trinity.
That was obviously made more clear by Jesus and what he revealed during His time on earth with us.
They didn't / don't conceptualize anything beyond the Oneness of God,
the reason that they have no clear concept of the trinity is because it is not a tenet of Judaism or Jewish life.
I don't see much clarity in the things Jesus had said when we concern ourselves with the Trinity doctrine.
He was exalted, surely, but not the one God himself.
I don't have the chapter and verse to defend this claim at the moment but it's certainly within the bible.
Jesus himself denied knowing when his own 'Second Coming' was, stating only 'The Father' knows.
The Trinity is pagan, not Jewish, that's all it comes down too.
You were the Chosen One! It was said you would destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness!~Obi-Wan Kenobi.

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B. W.
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Re: Let us make make man in our image.

#19

Post by B. W. » Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:51 pm

SaintConfused wrote:
cslewislover wrote:To me, it doesn't matter whatsoever that the Israelites didn't have a clear concept of the trinity.
That was obviously made more clear by Jesus and what he revealed during His time on earth with us.
They didn't / don't conceptualize anything beyond the Oneness of God,
the reason that they have no clear concept of the trinity is because it is not a tenet of Judaism or Jewish life.
I don't see much clarity in the things Jesus had said when we concern ourselves with the Trinity doctrine.
He was exalted, surely, but not the one God himself.
I don't have the chapter and verse to defend this claim at the moment but it's certainly within the bible.
Jesus himself denied knowing when his own 'Second Coming' was, stating only 'The Father' knows.
The Trinity is pagan, not Jewish, that's all it comes down too.

Please try reading this section:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=33317

I am working on adding more and it will answer a lot of your questions in due time.
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

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Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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