Jehovah witnesses

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Post Reply
PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9028
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 120 times
Been liked: 339 times

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#61

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:17 am

B. W. wrote:
1stjohn0666 wrote:Are you people trying to get me to believe in the "modalism, or Sebellianism" formula of the one God?
No - you need to know the real Jesus Christ...

Because it is written...

Psalms 118:8, 9 - Psalms 146:3, 4, 5, 6 - John 1:1, 3 - Col 1:16 and 1 Timothy 4:10 and Rev 1:17, 18 - Isaiah 48:12, 13 and note again John 1:1, 2, 3, 14
-
-
-
And do we need to go any further? seriously?
At this stage it is not a question of not understanding, it is not wanting to understand.

1stjohn0666
Valued Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:45 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#62

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:36 am

In modalism theology Jesus is YHVH.

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#63

Post by B. W. » Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:59 am

PaulSacramento wrote:And do we need to go any further? seriously?

At this stage it is not a question of not understanding, it is not wanting to understand.
Psalms 118:8, 9 - Psalms 146:3, 4, 5, 6 - John 1:1, 3 - Col 1:16 and 1 Timothy 4:10 and Rev 1:17, 18 - Isaiah 48:12, 13 and note again John 1:1, 2, 3, 14
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

Sam1995
Valued Member
Posts: 270
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:10 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Belfast
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#64

Post by Sam1995 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:23 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:In modalism theology Jesus is YHVH.
What's your point? :lol:

SB y#-o
"There are far, far better things ahead than any we leave behind." - C.S Lewis

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21082
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 194 times
Been liked: 1048 times

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#65

Post by RickD » Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:36 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:In modalism theology Jesus is YHVH.

from:http://www.theopedia.com/Modalism
Modalism

Modalism, also called Sabellianism, is the unorthodox belief that God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes in contrast to the Trinitarian doctrine where God is one being eternally existing in three persons. According to Modalism, during the incarnation, Jesus was simply God acting in one mode or role, and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was God acting in a different mode. Thus, God does not exist as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at the same time. Rather, He is one person and has merely manifested himself in these three modes at various times. Modalism thus denies the basic distinctiveness and coexistence of the three persons of the Trinity.

Modalism was condemned by Tertullian (c. 213, Tertullian Against Praxeas 1, in Ante Nicene Fathers, vol. 3). Also known as Sabellianism, it was condemned as heresy by Dionysius, bishop of Rome (c. 262).

Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God (i.e., who God is). "Present day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches. They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus... modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods. This is not what the Trinity is. The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." [1]
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Sam1995
Valued Member
Posts: 270
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:10 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Belfast
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#66

Post by Sam1995 » Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:48 am

RickD wrote:
1stjohn0666 wrote:In modalism theology Jesus is YHVH.

from:http://www.theopedia.com/Modalism
Modalism

Modalism, also called Sabellianism, is the unorthodox belief that God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes in contrast to the Trinitarian doctrine where God is one being eternally existing in three persons. According to Modalism, during the incarnation, Jesus was simply God acting in one mode or role, and the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was God acting in a different mode. Thus, God does not exist as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit at the same time. Rather, He is one person and has merely manifested himself in these three modes at various times. Modalism thus denies the basic distinctiveness and coexistence of the three persons of the Trinity.

Modalism was condemned by Tertullian (c. 213, Tertullian Against Praxeas 1, in Ante Nicene Fathers, vol. 3). Also known as Sabellianism, it was condemned as heresy by Dionysius, bishop of Rome (c. 262).

Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God (i.e., who God is). "Present day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and United Apostolic Churches. They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus... modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods. This is not what the Trinity is. The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." [1]
:pound: :pound:

SB
"There are far, far better things ahead than any we leave behind." - C.S Lewis

1stjohn0666
Valued Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:45 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#67

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:57 pm

If Jesus is YHVH it's a clear statement of modalism.

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9028
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 120 times
Been liked: 339 times

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#68

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:59 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:If Jesus is YHVH it's a clear statement of modalism.
Can I ask you something?
Who did Moses and Abraham see when speaking with God?

1stjohn0666
Valued Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:45 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#69

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:05 pm

YHVH who is not Jesus

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#70

Post by B. W. » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:37 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
1stjohn0666 wrote:If Jesus is YHVH it's a clear statement of modalism.
Can I ask you something?
Who did Moses and Abraham see when speaking with God?
1stjohn0666 wrote:YHVH who is not Jesus

Look at these verses from the Jewish OT and the LXX...

Isa 48:15, 16, I, even I, have spoken, yea, I have called him; I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous. 16 Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this: From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord GOD hath sent me, and His spirit. JPS

Notice The Lord calling the Lord, Lord and use of third person speech here regarding ‘even the Lord and His Spirit’ in the LXX quoted below...

Isa 48:15, 16, I have spoken, I have called, I have brought him, and made his way prosperous.16 Draw nigh to me, and hear ye these words; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning: when it took place, there was I, and now the Lord, even the Lord, and his Spirit, hath sent me. LXX

Verses 13 and 14 (below) make it clear the speaker in verses 15 and 16 is God and not Isaiah...

Isa 48:13, 14, My hand also has founded the earth, and my right hand has fixed the sky: I will call them, and they shall stand together. 14 And all shall be gathered, and shall hear: who has told them these things? Out of love to thee I have fulfilled thy desire on Babylon, to abolish the seed of the Chaldeans. LXX

Isa 48:15, 16 I spoke, and I called. I brought him, and I prospered his way. 16 Lead forward to me, and hear these things ! [not from the beginning in secret I have spoken] When it took place, [ here I was]. And now the Lord, the lord , he sent me and his spirit. LXX Apostolic Greek text and direct word order…

Pretty clear you are wrong on your assumption 1st johnny as are all cultist that you gleaned your version of Jesus from…

Please see this Thread too for further info:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/po ... 22&t=33317
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

1stjohn0666
Valued Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:45 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#71

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:11 pm

Isa 48:15,16 is YHVH speaking, Jesus is shown as being sent from YHVH God. Clearly Jesus is not YHVH.

Sam1995
Valued Member
Posts: 270
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:10 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Belfast
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#72

Post by Sam1995 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 7:26 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:Isa 48:15,16 is YHVH speaking, Jesus is shown as being sent from YHVH God. Clearly Jesus is not YHVH.
How can you worship Jesus if He is effectively "below" God the Father as you are putting it?

SB
"There are far, far better things ahead than any we leave behind." - C.S Lewis

1stjohn0666
Valued Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:45 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#73

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:51 pm

Sam1995 wrote:
1stjohn0666 wrote:Isa 48:15,16 is YHVH speaking, Jesus is shown as being sent from YHVH God. Clearly Jesus is not YHVH.
How can you worship Jesus if He is effectively "below" God the Father as you are putting it?

SB
Here is a "trinitarian" link, that will enlighten you as I am in agreement with the facts. http://www.xenos.org/essays/worship.htm
The saints are "worshiped" Rev 3:9
Abigail "worshiped" David,1 Sam 25:23.
Both YHWH and the king are "worshiped" 1 Chron 29:20
"woship" is an elastic term. We as Christians are to put God first and give him the "worship" he deserves.

As for being "prayed" to, both Jesus and the Father are prayed to!! If being prayed to is a claim that you are God... then the nation of Israel must be God Isa 45:14

Rev 5:11-13 "Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”

John 14:13 "Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son." There is NO argument that it is correct to pray to Jesus!!

Sam1995
Valued Member
Posts: 270
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:10 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Belfast
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#74

Post by Sam1995 » Sun Dec 02, 2012 4:27 pm

Are you actually being serious here? To try and tell me that john 14:13 does not provide a basis on which to pray to Jesus is absurd nonsense.

So when people pray to Jesus in acts 1:24, that's wrong is it? Go and have a look at the Greek transcript of Acts 1:24 and you will find that the Greek word used for Lord is Κύριε (Kyrie). The word means Jesus, I'm not going to go any further with this, I am actually annoyed that you believe what you replied with.

Also, in terms of being worshiped, of course Jesus is worthy of worship - I suggest you actually study some of Paul's writings, analyse your findings and then tell me your view. Jesus is worthy of worship, He's the one who took YOUR PLACE, He's the one that said to Pilot on the platform "take me, and let them have Barabbas," He's the one who was whipped, tortured, had a crown of thorns placed on His head and then nailed to a cross! Why? For YOUR sake! For your sin and for your opportunity to have eternal and everlasting life! I have no need to proceed any further with this discussion in that respect. There IS NO and NEVER WILL BE any argument against that.

SB
"There are far, far better things ahead than any we leave behind." - C.S Lewis

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9028
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 120 times
Been liked: 339 times

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#75

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:52 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:YHVH who is not Jesus
So the writer of the GOJ is in error when He says that Jesus said that NO ONE has ever seen God, is that what you are saying?
Because of it was God that spoke to Abe and Moses directly, ie: they saw Him, then either the writer of John or Jesus is wrong.

Post Reply