Jehovah witnesses

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#46

Post by RickD » Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:38 am

Rick, is it a requirement to accept the Trinity to be saved?
So, does 1stjohns salvation depend on accepting a Trinitarian view?
Jlay, I personally don't believe accepting the trinity is necessary for one to be saved. But, that was never my point. My point is that it's a matter of salvation for 1stjohn because he is putting his faith in a different Jesus than the only Jesus who can save him. 1stjohn denies the divinity of Christ.

So, let me ask you jlay. Is it a requirement to accept Jesus Christ as He says He is(God incarnate) for one to be saved? Remember we're not talking about a person who just heard the gospel for the first time, and is unfamiliar with what the bible says. 1stjohn is well aware of all the arguments we've made concerning Christ's divinity. 1stjohn is making a positive denial about the divinity of Jesus Christ. It's not like he's saying that he just doesn't understand the trinity, and he doesn't understand how Jesus can be both God and man. A lot of people accept Christ as being God and man, but have trouble understanding. 1stjohn has clearly said that Jesus Christ IS NOT God.
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#47

Post by B. W. » Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:06 pm

jlay wrote:
RickD wrote: John, have you actually prayed about this? I mean earnestly prayed that God would show you the truth in this? Pray that God would open your eyes to the truth. It is a matter of your salvation. There is nothing more important in your life than this. If you earnestly pray, and you're open to the truth, God will show you. It's up to you John. Do you want to see the truth about who Jesus is?
Let me jump in the fray.
Rick, is it a requirement to accept the Trinity to be saved? Now, I say this as one who accepts the Trinity. Of course, no one can really explain the Trinity. In fact, men are said to have gone mad just from intense study of it. John says, But these are written, that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you might have life through his name. John 20:31.
Nowhere in the books of the Bible is the Trinity presented as a doctrine. The doctrine is formed by a systematic study of the scriptures. So, does 1stjohns salvation depend on accepting a Trinitarian view?
Gal 1:7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.
NKJV

Note, Paul stated as being a bond servant of Christ... as well as there are those that pervert the gospel of Christ

Now read the verses below:

Luke 4:6-8, "And the devil said to Him (Jesus), "All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours." 8 And Jesus answered and said to him, "Get behind Me, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND HIM ONLY YOU SHALL SERVE.' "

Deut 6:13 You shall fear the LORD your God and serve Him, and shall take oaths in His name.
NKJV

Now look at these verses:

Col 2:9-10, "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority." NIV

1 John 4:2-3, "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world." NIV

1 Tim 3:16 NKJV, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory."

Rev 1:17-18,"And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death." NKJV

Isaiah 44:6 NKJV, "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God."


It is rather important in whom one trust for salvation and whom only Salvation can come...

One can trust man for their salvation or the LORD as Isaiah 44:6 states and Rev 1:8, 17 clarifies upon whom...

Why is the Lord speaking so oddly in this verse by use of third person speech? YHWH has a redeemer named YHWH of Host - First and the Last... Hmmm????

Isa 44:6 "Thus says YHWH, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, YHWH of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." NASB

The doctrine of the Trinity is all other the place - very sad people are not taught on the Personhood of God as Echaud... No wonder Paul warned about those whom pervert the gospel of Christ's salvation...
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#48

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:04 am

RickD wrote:
Rick, is it a requirement to accept the Trinity to be saved?
So, does 1stjohns salvation depend on accepting a Trinitarian view?
Jlay, I personally don't believe accepting the trinity is necessary for one to be saved. But, that was never my point. My point is that it's a matter of salvation for 1stjohn because he is putting his faith in a different Jesus than the only Jesus who can save him. 1stjohn denies the divinity of Christ.

So, let me ask you jlay. Is it a requirement to accept Jesus Christ as He says He is(God incarnate) for one to be saved? Remember we're not talking about a person who just heard the gospel for the first time, and is unfamiliar with what the bible says. 1stjohn is well aware of all the arguments we've made concerning Christ's divinity. 1stjohn is making a positive denial about the divinity of Jesus Christ. It's not like he's saying that he just doesn't understand the trinity, and he doesn't understand how Jesus can be both God and man. A lot of people accept Christ as being God and man, but have trouble understanding. 1stjohn has clearly said that Jesus Christ IS NOT God.
Where in all of scripture does Jesus claim to be "God incarnate" ?? Also why do I have to abandon reason when Jesus clearly said "only true God" and Paul "one God, the Father"?

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#49

Post by B. W. » Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:11 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:
RickD wrote:
Rick, is it a requirement to accept the Trinity to be saved?
So, does 1stjohns salvation depend on accepting a Trinitarian view?
Jlay, I personally don't believe accepting the trinity is necessary for one to be saved. But, that was never my point. My point is that it's a matter of salvation for 1stjohn because he is putting his faith in a different Jesus than the only Jesus who can save him. 1stjohn denies the divinity of Christ.

So, let me ask you jlay. Is it a requirement to accept Jesus Christ as He says He is(God incarnate) for one to be saved? Remember we're not talking about a person who just heard the gospel for the first time, and is unfamiliar with what the bible says. 1stjohn is well aware of all the arguments we've made concerning Christ's divinity. 1stjohn is making a positive denial about the divinity of Jesus Christ. It's not like he's saying that he just doesn't understand the trinity, and he doesn't understand how Jesus can be both God and man. A lot of people accept Christ as being God and man, but have trouble understanding. 1stjohn has clearly said that Jesus Christ IS NOT God.
Where in all of scripture does Jesus claim to be "God incarnate" ?? Also why do I have to abandon reason when Jesus clearly said "only true God" and Paul "one God, the Father"?
Isaiah 44:6 is one place He spoke of this... another in Isaiah 41:4 as well as in Isaiah 48:12, 13 and again in Rev 1:8, 17, 18 again He spoke to Moses in Exodus 3:14 then repeated this in John 8:58, 59

Jesus said it in Isaiah 43:11, 12, 13 and John 17:5, John 3:13, John 10:30, John 14:9

We've gone over this before and you have yet to explain in any detail the gospel message...
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#50

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:34 am

The Gospel IS "the good news" of the kingdom to come!!
What more great detail is there? Jesus taught it and it is the Gospel.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#51

Post by B. W. » Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:40 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:The Gospel IS "the good news" of the kingdom to come!!
What more great detail is there? Jesus taught it and it is the Gospel.
Suggest you read Romans 1:9-32 and then Romans chapters Two through Sixteen...
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#52

Post by digging » Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:45 pm

I have come to see there is a very important difference between belief In Jesus compared to beliefs About Jesus. Our salvation is connect to belief IN him not so much in points about him. Some times it's very hard to tell the difference.

Digging

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#53

Post by jlay » Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:38 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:The Gospel IS "the good news" of the kingdom to come!!
What more great detail is there? Jesus taught it and it is the Gospel.
The word Gospel simply means good news, or glad tidings. This is exactly why Paul says if anyone preaches to YOU a DIFFERENT gospel. Why would he say this unless different 'Gospels' were be preached to the Galatians. What were the Galatians being rebuked for? Judiazing.
What Jesus taught to apostate Israel regarding their earthly Kingdom promises is different than what Jesus called Paul to preach as "his gospel." Now not everyone here is a Pauline dispensationalist as myself. But, I find that without these distinctions we are left with endless contradictions.
Where in all of scripture does Jesus claim to be "God incarnate" ?? Also why do I have to abandon reason when Jesus clearly said "only true God" and Paul "one God, the Father"?
Let me ask it like this, in what way do you or don't you view Christ as divine?
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#54

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:46 am

jlay wrote:
RickD wrote: John, have you actually prayed about this? I mean earnestly prayed that God would show you the truth in this? Pray that God would open your eyes to the truth. It is a matter of your salvation. There is nothing more important in your life than this. If you earnestly pray, and you're open to the truth, God will show you. It's up to you John. Do you want to see the truth about who Jesus is?
Let me jump in the fray.
Rick, is it a requirement to accept the Trinity to be saved? Now, I say this as one who accepts the Trinity. Of course, no one can really explain the Trinity. In fact, men are said to have gone mad just from intense study of it. John says, But these are written, that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you might have life through his name. John 20:31.
Nowhere in the books of the Bible is the Trinity presented as a doctrine. The doctrine is formed by a systematic study of the scriptures. So, does 1stjohns salvation depend on accepting a Trinitarian view?
The Trinity is NOT a requirement for salvation nor is understanding IT.
But I do think that understanding Jesus nature helps to understand the nature of what He did for us, which in turn helps us to understand God better.
An example:
I don't think I understood God did for us until I read it explained like this:
There is nothing Man can do to redeem himself, his very attempt to redeem himself for the sake of redemption taints the intent.
Since there is no way for Man to get "up there" with God ( I don't mean heaven by the way), God had to come down here to Us.
He did this in the form of His Son and if Jesus is NOT the incarnate Word/Son of God, then what he did is nothing other than "some guy dying thinking he was dying for some greater good".
God came DOWN to Us because we CAN'T come up to God.
Let that sink in...the magnitude of that comment.
To me, that was what allowed me to understand the significance of what happened in Jesus.

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#55

Post by Sam1995 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:06 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:The Gospel IS "the good news" of the kingdom to come!!
What more great detail is there? Jesus taught it and it is the Gospel.
y#-o :shakehead: y[-( :crying:

SB
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#56

Post by B. W. » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:42 am

Sam1995 wrote:
1stjohn0666 wrote:The Gospel IS "the good news" of the kingdom to come!!
What more great detail is there? Jesus taught it and it is the Gospel.
y#-o :shakehead: y[-( :crying:

SB
Agree with you Sam, Jehovah Witness's - and The WAY International splinter groups as do all cults combine good works to gain, or keep one on God's good graces, or earn favor for greater status after the final judgment in the world to come. All works oriented.

PaulSacamento wrote well and sums up the difference that 1stjohnny so far has failed to see about the gospel message of Christ...
PaulSacramento wrote:I don't think I understood God did for us until I read it explained like this:

1-There is nothing Man can do to redeem himself, his very attempt to redeem himself for the sake of redemption taints the intent.

2-Since there is no way for Man to get "up there" with God ( I don't mean heaven by the way), God had to come down here to Us.

3-He did this in the form of His Son and if Jesus is NOT the incarnate Word/Son of God, then what he did is nothing other than "some guy dying thinking he was dying for some greater good".

4-God came DOWN to Us because we CAN'T come up to God.

Let that sink in...the magnitude of that comment. To me, that was what allowed me to understand the significance of what happened in Jesus.
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#57

Post by Sam1995 » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:50 pm

B. W. wrote:
Sam1995 wrote:
1stjohn0666 wrote:The Gospel IS "the good news" of the kingdom to come!!
What more great detail is there? Jesus taught it and it is the Gospel.
y#-o :shakehead: y[-( :crying:

SB
Agree with you Sam, Jehovah Witness's - and The WAY International splinter groups as do all cults combine good works to gain, or keep one on God's good graces, or earn favor for greater status after the final judgment in the world to come. All works oriented.

PaulSacamento wrote well and sums up the difference that 1stjohnny so far has failed to see about the gospel message of Christ...
PaulSacramento wrote:I don't think I understood God did for us until I read it explained like this:

1-There is nothing Man can do to redeem himself, his very attempt to redeem himself for the sake of redemption taints the intent.

2-Since there is no way for Man to get "up there" with God ( I don't mean heaven by the way), God had to come down here to Us.

3-He did this in the form of His Son and if Jesus is NOT the incarnate Word/Son of God, then what he did is nothing other than "some guy dying thinking he was dying for some greater good".

4-God came DOWN to Us because we CAN'T come up to God.

Let that sink in...the magnitude of that comment. To me, that was what allowed me to understand the significance of what happened in Jesus.
Paul summed it up perfectly.

1stjonny, I think you should go and have some alone time with God and your Bible, let Him reveal His true nature to you, because we don't seem to be getting anywhere.

SB y:-?
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#58

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:54 am

Are you people trying to get me to believe in the "modalism, or Sebellianism" formula of the one God?

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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#59

Post by B. W. » Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:41 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:Are you people trying to get me to believe in the "modalism, or Sebellianism" formula of the one God?
No - you need to know the real Jesus Christ...

Because it is written...

Psalms 118:8, 9 - Psalms 146:3, 4, 5, 6 - John 1:1, 3 - Col 1:16 and 1 Timothy 4:10 and Rev 1:17, 18 - Isaiah 48:12, 13 and note again John 1:1, 2, 3, 14
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Re: Jehovah witnesses

#60

Post by Sam1995 » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:11 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:Are you people trying to get me to believe in the "modalism, or Sebellianism" formula of the one God?
It isn't a modalistic/sabellianistic view because:

a) I believe in the trinity
b) Modalism is very close to unitarian belief (except modalists believe Jesus was fully God), this has nothing to do with what any of us have been discussing.....at all.

As B.W said above, your view of Christ is not the correct view, that's why we're trying to make sure you know the real truth of Jesus Christ, because the truth will set you free!

SB y:-?
"There are far, far better things ahead than any we leave behind." - C.S Lewis

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