Jehovah witnesses

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 6387
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains
Has liked: 266 times
Been liked: 481 times

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#226

Post by Philip » Sat May 09, 2015 8:28 pm

You really have to know how to talk to JWs, as they are very difficult to reach. Last weekend, I pretty much lost my patience with them - I probably got way too agressive and impatient. They have a knack for showing up at the most inopportune times. And when debating them becomes just an exercise in banging your head against a wall, well, it can seem like a huge waste of time. :roll:

User avatar
B. W.
Board Moderator
Posts: 8162
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 99 times
Been liked: 237 times

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#227

Post by B. W. » Sun May 10, 2015 8:27 am

Philip wrote:You really have to know how to talk to JWs, as they are very difficult to reach. Last weekend, I pretty much lost my patience with them - I probably got way too agressive and impatient. They have a knack for showing up at the most inopportune times. And when debating them becomes just an exercise in banging your head against a wall, well, it can seem like a huge waste of time. :roll:

:mom:

-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 6387
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains
Has liked: 266 times
Been liked: 481 times

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#228

Post by Philip » Sun May 10, 2015 2:50 pm

Philip wrote:
You really have to know how to talk to JWs, as they are very difficult to reach. Last weekend, I pretty much lost my patience with them - I probably got way too agressive and impatient. They have a knack for showing up at the most inopportune times. And when debating them becomes just an exercise in banging your head against a wall, well, it can seem like a huge waste of time. :roll:

:mom:
So why don't I feel any better after my hug? Thanks, "mom!" :pound:

It's so tempting, well knowing JW's historical training to doubt and not accept any documentation you might provide (be it historical facts or their own organization's history of false prophecies) to just dismiss them and tell them to leave. But, somewhere, there's a reasonable point to bid them adieu - along with Jack Nicholson's famous quote ringing in their ears: "You can't HANDLE the truth!"

Image

User avatar
LittleHamster
Established Member
Posts: 210
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:00 am
Christian: Yes
Has liked: 43 times
Been liked: 7 times

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#229

Post by LittleHamster » Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:41 am

yp**== y)>-
Last edited by LittleHamster on Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

neo-x
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3395
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:13 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 195 times
Been liked: 91 times
Contact:

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#230

Post by neo-x » Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:18 am

Philip wrote:You really have to know how to talk to JWs, as they are very difficult to reach. Last weekend, I pretty much lost my patience with them - I probably got way too agressive and impatient. They have a knack for showing up at the most inopportune times. And when debating them becomes just an exercise in banging your head against a wall, well, it can seem like a huge waste of time. :roll:
You are quite right there and I don't blame you for losing your patience. They are behind a wall of blindness which they don't seem know to cross.
People treat facts as relevant more when the facts tend to support their opinions. When the facts are against their opinions, they don't necessarily deny the facts, but they say the facts are less relevant or insignificant. This is ofcourse because believing things that make you feel comfortable, takes a priority. And I think that should not be the case if one is after truth.

//johnadavid.wordpress.com

User avatar
goingsouth
Familiar Member
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:46 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: New Hampshire
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#231

Post by goingsouth » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:05 pm

RickD wrote:
1stjohn0666 wrote:
RickD wrote:
1stjohn0666 wrote:I do not deny who Christ is!! He is the Messiah, Son of God. What part of the gospel message would you like me to explain?
Son of God
So, John, you are finally realizing that Jesus Christ is God?
Not yet, if the bible ever mentions "God the son" I might!!
John, until you believe in the one true Jesus, you are lost in your sins.
Jesus is God
Since when does NOT believing in a trinity make one lost in your sins? In my view, when someone condemns someone else for NOT believing in the trinity, they are being judgmental. Jesus life, death, resurrection, and ascension, have nothing to do with a trinity. Salvation has nothing to do with a trinity. Whether one believes Jesus is God or NOT doesn't determine whether or not they are in their sins. Myself, I believe Jesus is God but NOT fully God, God is yet greater!
"The greatest impediment Christians have obtaining Truth is when they think they already have it."

Philip
Board Moderator
Posts: 6387
Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:45 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Betwixt the Sea and the Mountains
Has liked: 266 times
Been liked: 481 times

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#232

Post by Philip » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:44 pm

Is the Father God? How about the Son? Is the Holy Spirit God?

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 19230
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kamino
Has liked: 165 times
Been liked: 888 times

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#233

Post by RickD » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:39 am

goingsouth wrote:
RickD wrote:
1stjohn0666 wrote:
RickD wrote:
1stjohn0666 wrote:I do not deny who Christ is!! He is the Messiah, Son of God. What part of the gospel message would you like me to explain?
Son of God
So, John, you are finally realizing that Jesus Christ is God?
Not yet, if the bible ever mentions "God the son" I might!!
John, until you believe in the one true Jesus, you are lost in your sins.
Jesus is God
Since when does NOT believing in a trinity make one lost in your sins? In my view, when someone condemns someone else for NOT believing in the trinity, they are being judgmental. Jesus life, death, resurrection, and ascension, have nothing to do with a trinity. Salvation has nothing to do with a trinity. Whether one believes Jesus is God or NOT doesn't determine whether or not they are in their sins. Myself, I believe Jesus is God but NOT fully God, God is yet greater!
How can Jesus be God, yet not fully God?
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
goingsouth
Familiar Member
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:46 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: New Hampshire
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#234

Post by goingsouth » Sun Mar 26, 2017 7:06 am

As opposed to the trinity doctrine, it's not difficult to understand.

Jesus said it best...

His own words PROVE he's not FULLY God!

Jesus said he or the angels didn't know the time of his own return, but that ONLY God knows. If Jesus were fully God, he would know!

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

Jesus said God the Father is greater.

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."

Our heavenly Father has NO EQUALS!
"The greatest impediment Christians have obtaining Truth is when they think they already have it."

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 19230
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kamino
Has liked: 165 times
Been liked: 888 times

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#235

Post by RickD » Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:10 am

goingsouth wrote:As opposed to the trinity doctrine, it's not difficult to understand.

Jesus said it best...

His own words PROVE he's not FULLY God!

Jesus said he or the angels didn't know the time of his own return, but that ONLY God knows. If Jesus were fully God, he would know!

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

Jesus said God the Father is greater.

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."

Our heavenly Father has NO EQUALS!
You still haven't answered how Jesus can, at the same time, be God, and not be fully God.

If Jesus is not "fully" God, is he only partly God? He has a divine nature, but only 50%? 60%?

If Jesus is divine, he must be God.

Do you really understand what the doctrine of the Trinity actually says?

Without fail, every single person that has argued against the Trinity on this board, has argued against a straw man.

Maybe you could briefly tell us in your own words, what the doctrine says, and what specifically about the doctrine is wrong. Then we can flesh out where you misunderstand it.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
goingsouth
Familiar Member
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:46 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: New Hampshire
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#236

Post by goingsouth » Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:43 pm

You still haven't answered how Jesus can, at the same time, be God, and not be fully God.
I didn't? Jesus did!

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."
If Jesus is not "fully" God, is he only partly God? He has a divine nature, but only 50%? 60%?
What does that matter? Let me put it this way. Jesus is everything God is, BUT God is yet more! (greater)
If Jesus is divine, he must be God.
A Christian partakes in God's divine nature, yet they're not FULLY God! The angels too, yet they're not fully God. YET! We are both called GODS! The Hebrew words translated ‘God’ is ‘Elohim’, which means ‘mighty ones’. (ONES indicates all of the heavenly host) The word at times refers to the Angels who are called God’s ‘mighty ones’,
Do you really understand what the doctrine of the Trinity actually says?
Yes. I studied it and threw it out the window in 1974. I probably understand the doctrine as well as you. It's just...you believe it and I don't!
Without fail, every single person that has argued against the Trinity on this board, has argued against a straw man.
The trinity doctrine is definitely a straw man argument! Most trinitarians will tell you that the trinity doctrine is NOT explicitly taught in any ONE verse of scripture. It's derived from compilation of scriptures. I say that IF the doctrine was necessary for the forgiveness of sins and salvation, it would be clearly stated in scripture....BUT IT'S NOT!
Maybe you could briefly tell us in your own words, what the doctrine says, and what specifically about the doctrine is wrong. Then we can flesh out where you misunderstand it.
Give me a break! I don't have to prove to you that I know what the trinity doctrine states. The entire doctrine is false!
"The greatest impediment Christians have obtaining Truth is when they think they already have it."

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 19230
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kamino
Has liked: 165 times
Been liked: 888 times

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#237

Post by RickD » Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:38 pm

Ok,

From your answers, it seems you're saying that The Father is fully God, and Jesus isn't fully God.
So to help me better understand what you're saying, let's say the father, being fully God, is 100% God, by nature.

Please explain in a percentage, how much of God's divine nature Jesus has. I'm trying to understand how you back your reasoning that Jesus is God but not fully God.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
goingsouth
Familiar Member
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:46 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: New Hampshire
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#238

Post by goingsouth » Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:35 pm

RickD wrote:Ok,

From your answers, it seems you're saying that The Father is fully God, and Jesus isn't fully God.
So to help me better understand what you're saying, let's say the father, being fully God, is 100% God, by nature.

Please explain in a percentage, how much of God's divine nature Jesus has. I'm trying to understand how you back your reasoning that Jesus is God but not fully God.
That's an unreasonable request. What do percentages have to do with anything? How do percentages help you understand or "back my reasoning" that God is greater than Jesus? I'm not the one who said God is greater than Jesus. Jesus did! How much of the divine nature do you possess? 10%....20 maybe 30%???
"The greatest impediment Christians have obtaining Truth is when they think they already have it."

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 19230
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kamino
Has liked: 165 times
Been liked: 888 times

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#239

Post by RickD » Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:41 pm

goingsouth wrote:
RickD wrote:Ok,

From your answers, it seems you're saying that The Father is fully God, and Jesus isn't fully God.
So to help me better understand what you're saying, let's say the father, being fully God, is 100% God, by nature.

Please explain in a percentage, how much of God's divine nature Jesus has. I'm trying to understand how you back your reasoning that Jesus is God but not fully God.
That's an unreasonable request. What do percentages have to do with anything? How do percentages help you understand that God is greater than Jesus? I'm not the one who said God is greater than Jesus. Jesus did! How much of the divine nature do you possess?
I'm trying to understand how Jesus can be God, but not fully God. Either Jesus has all the attributes of God, and is fully God, or he doesn't have all the attributes of God, and he is not God at all.

Jesus did not say that God(the Father) is greater than he is, ontologically. That's just not logical. If Christ doesn't have all the attributes of God, he cannot, logically, be God.
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
goingsouth
Familiar Member
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:46 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Undecided
Location: New Hampshire
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Jehovah witnesses

#240

Post by goingsouth » Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:15 pm

Rick,

Jesus has all the attributes of God. Everything that God is Jesus is. God's has more of these attributes which is simply saying... God is a greater being!

This is what Thayer says about the word 'greater' in John 14...
...used of those who surpass others---either in nature and power as God.
"The greatest impediment Christians have obtaining Truth is when they think they already have it."

Post Reply