Jesus is YHVH??

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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RickD
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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#76

Post by RickD » Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:58 am

PaulSacramento wrote:Ah Rick...
Translations...wanna know how the JW's deal with Hebrews 1:8?
Here is THEIR translation:
But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.
I see. But Paul, 1stjohn0666 isn't a JW. He claims to follow scripture, and I'm sure he wouldn't just accept the JW translation to suit his beliefs about Jesus. Let's give 1stjohn0666 the benefit of doubt. How can he deny possibly the three most common Christian translations(NIV, NASB, and KJV) all say that Jesus is God in Hebrews 1:8.

Well 1stjohn0666, Is Paul correct that you will hold to The JW translation? Or, are you open to see the truth as so obvious in Hebrews 1:8 that the Son is indeed God?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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PaulSacramento
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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#77

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:50 am

RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:Ah Rick...
Translations...wanna know how the JW's deal with Hebrews 1:8?
Here is THEIR translation:
But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.
I see. But Paul, 1stjohn0666 isn't a JW. He claims to follow scripture, and I'm sure he wouldn't just accept the JW translation to suit his beliefs about Jesus. Let's give 1stjohn0666 the benefit of doubt. How can he deny possibly the three most common Christian translations(NIV, NASB, and KJV) all say that Jesus is God in Hebrews 1:8.

Well 1stjohn0666, Is Paul correct that you will hold to The JW translation? Or, are you open to see the truth as so obvious in Hebrews 1:8 that the Son is indeed God?
See, the issue isn't the translation, its the bias going INTO the translation.
John has already showed, with his view on proskueno, that the theological basis he comes into the translation to, is what dictates how a word or verse is to be translated or accepted as correct.
Now, the JW's made their own translation because they were being questioned in the exact same way, How cna one question Jesus being God ( as in God the Son) is so many passages make it clear ( John 1: 1 and Hebrews 1:8 for example)?
Simple, you re-translated them YOUR way ( John 1:1 becomes "...and the word was a god").
Pre-established theological doctrine ( Jesus is a created being) trumps biblical translation of undisputed texts showing him to be " the exact form of God".

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#78

Post by RickD » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:01 pm

Paul, how do JWs interpret Romans 10:9:
9 [a]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
The word for "Lord" is the Greek word, Kyrios. If one confesses Jesus as Lord, then one is confessing He is God. So how do they interpret their way it of that?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

PaulSacramento
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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#79

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Sep 18, 2012 12:46 pm

RickD wrote:Paul, how do JWs interpret Romans 10:9:
9 [a]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
The word for "Lord" is the Greek word, Kyrios. If one confesses Jesus as Lord, then one is confessing He is God. So how do they interpret their way it of that?
The way they interpret that is that, while Jesus is called Lord, Lord is a common term for one of "superiour position" and so it is correct to call Him Lord.
Even though Paul makes the direct comparison of Jesus with YHWH when he quotes Joel that "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved" and, as we saw in verse 9 Paul states that Jesus is Lord, the JW's get "around " that by quoting Joel in its Hebrew text ( with the name Jehovah) of course:
Whoever calls on the name Jehovah will be saved". basically stating that while Jesus is Lord, it is in Jehovah's name that we are saved and we MUST use that name.
And yes they ignore ACTS where its states that it is in Jesus name that we are saved and no other name under heaven.

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#80

Post by Thwarp » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:03 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:I think the first step in understanding this is to accept that everytime God spoke/showed Himself in the OT, it was Jesus.
Agreed! Absolutely paramount !

The Book I mentioned above does exactly that.
God in His Word has given us information concerning creation that we could have received no other way other than by divine revelation, for no one was there to observe it, and it cannot be repeated in a laboratory. So important is this information that he begins his word with this subject: Genisis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Two of the biggest claims God ever made!

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#81

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:14 pm

Hebrews 1:8 is a quote from Psalm 45:6,7. I interpret Hebrews 1:8 with Hebrews 1:9 "You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” Jesus if God "therefore God, your God" does not make sense. This would imply polytheism at it's core. Or at least as I see it.

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#82

Post by RickD » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:41 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:Hebrews 1:8 is a quote from Psalm 45:6,7. I interpret Hebrews 1:8 with Hebrews 1:9 "You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.” Jesus if God "therefore God, your God" does not make sense. This would imply polytheism at it's core. Or at least as I see it.
What about verse 10? Hebrews 1:10:
10 And
          “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
          AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

Jesus is Lord. And, Jesus created the heavens and the earth in the beginning. John, you really don't see this?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#83

Post by RickD » Tue Sep 18, 2012 1:54 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:Paul, how do JWs interpret Romans 10:9:
9 [a]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
The word for "Lord" is the Greek word, Kyrios. If one confesses Jesus as Lord, then one is confessing He is God. So how do they interpret their way it of that?
The way they interpret that is that, while Jesus is called Lord, Lord is a common term for one of "superiour position" and so it is correct to call Him Lord.
Even though Paul makes the direct comparison of Jesus with YHWH when he quotes Joel that "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved" and, as we saw in verse 9 Paul states that Jesus is Lord, the JW's get "around " that by quoting Joel in its Hebrew text ( with the name Jehovah) of course:
Whoever calls on the name Jehovah will be saved". basically stating that while Jesus is Lord, it is in Jehovah's name that we are saved and we MUST use that name.
And yes they ignore ACTS where its states that it is in Jesus name that we are saved and no other name under heaven.
Wow, talk about reading one's theology into scripture! That thar is sum scriptural gymnasteeks! y:O2
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

PaulSacramento
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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#84

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Sep 19, 2012 5:41 am

RickD wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:
RickD wrote:Paul, how do JWs interpret Romans 10:9:
9 [a]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
The word for "Lord" is the Greek word, Kyrios. If one confesses Jesus as Lord, then one is confessing He is God. So how do they interpret their way it of that?
The way they interpret that is that, while Jesus is called Lord, Lord is a common term for one of "superiour position" and so it is correct to call Him Lord.
Even though Paul makes the direct comparison of Jesus with YHWH when he quotes Joel that "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved" and, as we saw in verse 9 Paul states that Jesus is Lord, the JW's get "around " that by quoting Joel in its Hebrew text ( with the name Jehovah) of course:
Whoever calls on the name Jehovah will be saved". basically stating that while Jesus is Lord, it is in Jehovah's name that we are saved and we MUST use that name.
And yes they ignore ACTS where its states that it is in Jesus name that we are saved and no other name under heaven.
Wow, talk about reading one's theology into scripture! That thar is sum scriptural gymnasteeks! y:O2
One of the many reasons I never became a JW.

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#85

Post by Thwarp » Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:31 pm

One of the many reason's I'm glad the Lord never allowed me to even succumb to the JW's. Pray for them because it could very well have been you. There but for the Grace of God go "US"
God in His Word has given us information concerning creation that we could have received no other way other than by divine revelation, for no one was there to observe it, and it cannot be repeated in a laboratory. So important is this information that he begins his word with this subject: Genisis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Two of the biggest claims God ever made!

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#86

Post by RickD » Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:35 pm

Thwarp wrote:One of the many reason's I'm glad the Lord never allowed me to even succumb to the JW's. Pray for them because it could very well have been you. There but for the Grace of God go "US"
Twarp, I disagree. It should be, "There but for the Grace of God, go 'we'." :poke: :mrgreen:
Image
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#87

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:24 pm

Hebrews 1:13 Removes the JW teaching that Jesus was ever an angel..... gotta love it.
I will be back shortly with Hebrews 1:10 and what I see of the scrip is directly quoted from the Greek Septuagint LXX of Psalm 102
My favorite version of scripture however, still is the LXX

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#88

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:40 am

Hebrews 1:10-13 with the context of Psalm 102 is the kingdom to come, not the creation at the beginning of time. We go on a little, Hebrews 2:5 Now it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking.

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#89

Post by bippy123 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:54 pm

For me Isaiah 9-6 tells me all I need to know about the jehovas witnesses.

Isaiah 9:6

New International Version (NIV)

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#90

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:54 am

To me its the Immanuel part.
That He would be called "God amongst us" kind of makes a huge statement, know what I mean?

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