Jesus is YHVH??

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#46

Post by RickD » Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:08 pm

I mean if the trinity is true then for three days the trinity ceased to exist.
Prove it.
John 5:24
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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#47

Post by B. W. » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:26 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:First off, I do not have a PhD ...yet. I am in college working for that very degree. The next thing is I do not subscribe to the fact that God can die because he alone has immortality. Jesus is the son of God. Jesus fully died accomplishing which the first Adam could not. Now as Jesus being a "mere man" that to is ludicrous. Jesus is the only human (who was mortal) that did not have a human father. God did not take a three day break from being God. I mean if the trinity is true then for three days the trinity ceased to exist. Numbers 23:19 is talking about God not changing his mind. Context, context, context.
Only by the mystery of the Divine Trinity of God' Oneness can such a thing be done.

Isa 41:4 Who has performed and done it, Calling the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first; And with the last I am He.' "

Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.

Isa 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Rev 1:11 saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."

Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.

Rev 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.

Rev 1:18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.


When one dies, you do not cease to exist or soul sleep, you enter into judgment (Hebrews 9:27). Before Jesus came, sheol was divided into two areas – one area was for the wicked (a prison like place(see Isa 24:22x) where one waits for the final commuting of sentence at the white throne judgment. The second place was for those God deemed righteous such as the patriarchs, children, deformed, the DD, righteous Jews, etc see Luke 16:19-31 are those that Jesus set free at his resurrection (Zec 9:11, Eph 4:8 )

The great mystery is the due to who Jesus is – death could not hold him. God came and identified himself with humanity, paid our penalty for sin so we too who believe on the one who did this become reconciled back to God. In doing so, Jesus exposed the true nature of sin in the human condition, forgives, and took upon himself the form of a servant to do so. That is true Love Profound – God and Man reconciled. Something only God can do…

This is something you do not understand as you are not a believer in the Real Jesus Christ who identifies Himself as Almighty God.... who alone can forgive our transgressions to the fullest measure …

All Bible quotes from the NKJV
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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#48

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:17 am

Jesus fully died. With the 2nd member out of the equation, the trinity ceased to exist. Upon the resurrection of or Lord Jesus then the trinity was back in action. We can't have the bible contradicting itself John 3:16 vs. 1 John 3:16....who died the son of God or God?

I don't buy into the doctrine of purgatory @B.W. Judgment happens at the last trumpet which will be at the 2nd coming. There would be no need of a 2nd coming if we get judged before the day of judgment.

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#49

Post by Byblos » Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:36 am

Perhaps some day you will answer my question I posed twice already. Maybe you're still thinking about it, maybe you're just ignoring me, I don't know. Oh well ...
1stjohn0666 wrote:Jesus fully died. With the 2nd member out of the equation, the trinity ceased to exist. Upon the resurrection of or Lord Jesus then the trinity was back in action. We can't have the bible contradicting itself John 3:16 vs. 1 John 3:16....who died the son of God or God?
Do you know the difference between physical death and spiritual death? Do you see any evidence of that in scripture?
1stjohn0666 wrote:I don't buy into the doctrine of purgatory @B.W. Judgment happens at the last trumpet which will be at the 2nd coming. There would be no need of a 2nd coming if we get judged before the day of judgment.
FYI, purgatory has absolutely nothing to do with judgment. Whether or not one believes in purgatory has nothing to do with the fact that there indeed are 2 judgments, one individual upon death, and another corporate upon Jesus' return.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#50

Post by B. W. » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:05 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:Jesus fully died. With the 2nd member out of the equation, the trinity ceased to exist. Upon the resurrection of or Lord Jesus then the trinity was back in action. We can't have the bible contradicting itself John 3:16 vs. 1 John 3:16....who died the son of God or God?

I don't buy into the doctrine of purgatory @B.W. Judgment happens at the last trumpet which will be at the 2nd coming. There would be no need of a 2nd coming if we get judged before the day of judgment.
2 Sam 14:14, Eccl 3:11, 14 and many more bible verse indicate, that a person continues on immediately after Death such as: 2 Co 5:8, Php 1:23, Acts 7:59, Luke 23:43, Luke 16:19-31 etc and etc for the redeemed. Then this verse says that the unredeemed are held in a place of living confinement until a future time of collective recompense Isa 24:22: "And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the dungeon, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be punished." JPS - and Luke 16:19-31 also testifies of this truth too.

The problem with your POV, it seeks to justify false hope, that sin filled people escape judgment viva soul sleep and then awake to be annihilated into nothingness, or whatever temporal end comes. God does not take away life – that spiritual being – the real us – God does not kill our spiritual being permanently nor will he permit it to be extinguished into non-being. Why?

Answer:
Doing so would make God an absolute murderer, unjust, going against God’s own life giving nature of His own character, as well as, reneges on the gift of life he gave human beings. God will never deny who he is. You POV does just that - causes God to deny himself. So as we have seen – your POV teaches one it is okay to violate the First of the Ten Commandments and now causes God to Deny Himself as well.

You fail to note that the after death judgment comes first and the final White Throne Judgment is when spirit soul and body (flesh) are reunited and the guilty's sentence reviewed and is carried out in full, forever. You confuse this due to lack of understanding justified by human bigotry against the true nature and character of God. You seek to justify yourself and your POV above the bible by twisting the bible.

No part of the Godhead died in soul sleep or non-existence as you interpret death – God does not take away life… Those that place their trust in Jesus’ work upon the cross and resurrection enter into new life – eternal life reconciled back with God as opposed to those who don’t who live on in everlasting condemnation.

What does the bible say should be the final say? – Not The Way International or JW or other cultic groups privet interpretations of scripture…

Isa 41:4 Who has performed and done it, Calling the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first; And with the last I am He.' "

Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.

Isa 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.

Rev 1:8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Rev 1:11 saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea."

Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength.

Rev 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.

Rev 1:18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.


Why cannot a person of your education answer the questions:

Which is proves God's own agape love more:


Creating a man meat sacrifice – a mere creature – where God remains alone and aloof, far away to appease only a judicial notion of His? So that this being would usurp the worship due only to God himself?

Or…

God coming in the flesh, to die a horrible death that exposes what sin is and does, as well to justly judge and condemn sin, and rescue people from sin? God remains not far away, not aloof from us but rather God coming as one of us to know firsthand what we human beings go through in order to win us back freely - Eph 2:1-10.

Which of the two demonstrates God's pure agape Love the most?

Bible quotes from NKJV and NASB and JPS
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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#51

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Sun Aug 26, 2012 8:47 pm

I do not believe that there is such a thing in all of the bible as judgment upon death. That would contradict the very nature of "when" judgment happens. The 2nd coming and the last trump must sound before rewards and punishments are dealt out.
Of your question, I have answered it.

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#52

Post by Byblos » Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:54 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:I do not believe that there is such a thing in all of the bible as judgment upon death. That would contradict the very nature of "when" judgment happens. The 2nd coming and the last trump must sound before rewards and punishments are dealt out.
Of your question, I have answered it.
Once again you are not quoting the person you're addressing nor are you quoting the questions you're answering so I have no clue 1) if you're answering me, and 2) where your answer was posted. Could you PLEASE use the QUOTE button when responding to this post and remind me what your answer was?
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#53

Post by B. W. » Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:33 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:I do not believe that there is such a thing in all of the bible as judgment upon death. That would contradict the very nature of "when" judgment happens. The 2nd coming and the last trump must sound before rewards and punishments are dealt out.
Of your question, I have answered it.
Well Byblos - he may be referring to my post - who knows, 1stjohn666 is not very clear who he means but if it be toward myself then here is my response...

Keil and Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament writes on this subject:
Keil and Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament wrote:

Isaiah 24:22-23

Isa 24:22 announces the preliminary punishment of both angelic and human princes: 'asēphâh stands in the place of a gerundive, like taltēlâh in Isa 22:17. The connection of the words 'asēphâh 'assir is exactly the same as that of taltēlâh gâbēr in Isa22:17 : incarceration after the manner of incarcerating prisoners; 'âsaph, to gather together (Isa10:14; Isa33:4), signifies here to incarcerate, just as in Gen42:17. Both verbs are construed with ‛al, because the thrusting is from above downwards, into the pit and prison (al embraces both upon or over anything, and into it, e.g., 1Sa 31:4; Job 6:16; see Hitzig on Nah 3:12). We may see from 2 Pe 2:4 and Jude 1:6 how this is to be understood. The reference is to the abyss of Hades, where they are reserved in chains of darkness unto the judgment of the great day. According to this parallel, yippâkedu (shall be visited) ought apparently to be understood as denoting a visitation in wrath (like Isa29:6; Eze 38:8; compare pakad followed by an accusative in Isa 26:21, also Isa 26:14, and Psa59:6; niphkad, in fact, is never used to signify visitation in mercy)…
Please note what Keil and Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament points out, a visitation in wrath on a great day. That Great Day is when all peoples collectively are gathered before the Lord and is defined in the NT as the Great White Throne Judgment. This judgment is far different than the judgment that happened individually as Hebrews 9:27 speaks of.

That is what confuses you. Isaiah 24:22 principle speaks of a holding center, where the guilty dead are gathered to await the Great Day. It says so very specifically, immediately after dying. This speaks of the individual being judged and sent to a holding center (the Pit). Jesus speaks of this truth in Luke 16:19-31 as well too. Look at the following verses that reveal the same principle:

Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the dungeon, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be punished. JPS

Psalms 9:15 The nations have sunk down in the pit which they have made; In the net which they hid, their own foot has been caught. 16 The LORD has made Himself known; He has executed judgment. In the work of his own hands the wicked is snared. Higgaion Selah. 17 The wicked will return to Sheol, Even all the nations who forget God. NASB

Eze 26:20 then will I bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, to the people of old time, and will make thee to dwell in the nether parts of the earth, like the places that are desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I will set glory in the land of the living…JPS

Proverbs 9:18 But he knoweth not that the shades are there; that her guests are in the depths of the nether-world. JPS

Proverbs 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, Descending to the chambers of death NKJV

Job 26:5-6 The shades tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction hath no covering. jPS

Deut 32:22 For a fire is kindled in My nostril, and burneth unto the depths of the nether-world, and devoureth the earth with her produce, and setteth ablaze the foundations of the mountains. JPS

Num 16:30-31 But if the LORD make a new thing, and the ground open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down alive into the pit, then ye shall understand that these men have despised the LORD.'… 33 So they, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit; and the earth closed upon them, and they perished from among the assembly. JPS

Psa 28:1 A Psalm of David. Unto thee, O LORD, do I call; my Rock, be not Thou deaf unto me; lest, if Thou be silent unto me, I become like them that go down into the pit. JPS


Eze 32:18-38

All these verses speak of the result of an individual’s privet judgment where the guilty are sent and held until the final commuting of their sentence, where the full wrath of God is meted out collectivity on all people at the Great White Throne Judgment and dealt with. Notice how Rev 20:11, 12, 13, 14, 15 speaks of this collective judgment where the books are read and then all the guilty condemned dead are cast away from the presence of the Lord.

Think of it in this way: a guilty person dies, stands before the Judge and the proper paper work filed - the person is sent to a local county jail (Isa 24:22) to await trial’s final sentencing to serve a life sentence elsewhere - the State Prison. At the trial, all the paper work is reviewed and the commuting of sentence is carried out afterwards. The same principle of justice is applied here in the bible too. God is a God of absolute Justice and impartiality in His judgment.

John 3:36 has great meaning…

What you, john666 do is like all non-Christian cults do, lump God’s way of judgment into one and fail to note what the bible actually says on this matter. Also taking no account of the principle of 2 Sam 14:14 either – the mortal flesh dies but God does not take away life. By God’s own act of Grace, he devised the way to save people from His own final wrath to come. A mortal person can reject this offer of Grace, freely, but will face the full fury of God’s wrath at an appointed time. Accept it – they escape and are transformed out of darkness during this mortal life. All will die mortal death – that cannot be escaped from. One will live with the Lord, the condemned will reside in that holding center (Mat 25:41) until the collective the final full commuting of the sentence is finally carried out collectively.
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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#54

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:27 pm

[quote
Once again you are not quoting the person you're addressing nor are you quoting the questions you're answering so I have no clue 1) if you're answering me, and 2) where your answer was posted. Could you PLEASE use the QUOTE button when responding to this post and remind me what your answer was?[/quote]

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#55

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:28 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:[quote
Once again you are not quoting the person you're addressing nor are you quoting the questions you're answering so I have no clue 1) if you're answering me, and 2) where your answer was posted. Could you PLEASE use the QUOTE button when responding to this post and remind me what your answer was?
[/quote]
I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO USE THE QUOTE FEATURE

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#56

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:29 pm

If purgatory is the belief, then so it must....

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#57

Post by B. W. » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:48 am

You ask how to use the quote button - just look to top right button that says QUOTE and select it and it will automatically add the quote box in the response text screen...
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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#58

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:04 pm

B. W. wrote:You ask how to use the quote button
so now I just type other stuff after quoting edits?

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#59

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:05 pm

looks right?

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Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#60

Post by Byblos » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:57 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:looks right?
Hallelujah. It's a start. Next step is nested quotes. :D
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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