Jesus is YHVH??

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#16

Post by B. W. » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:29 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:The proper name of God the Father is Yaweh, the proper name of (trinitarian speaking) "God the son" is Jesus. The Holy Spirit is just the Holy Spirit. In the Creeds it says we are not to confound or "confuse" the persons. So if Jesus is Yaweh isn't that "confusing" the persons?
That answer is based solely on your opinion supported by fudged scholarship. We do not worship three Gods. We worship one God that is as he himself said - none like him. You don't understand Hebrew use of YHWH at all nor even notice what the OT reveals about God. You appraoch this subject in this manner - WE are all wrong - heretics - period and only your POV is correct. You do not let bible interpret bible - instead you twist the bible to your POV.

You falsely assume based on The Way International's dictations and distortions and are no more that a dictation machine - a mouth piece for the false Way... that teaches that it is okay to break the first of the Ten Commandants (Exo 20:1-4) to worship a mere creature and lead others to do the same. That in and of itself speaks volumes...

You cannot get around that fact...
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

1stjohn0666
Valued Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:45 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#17

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:44 pm

That does not answer the question I asked.

User avatar
cheezerrox
Established Member
Posts: 205
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:30 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: NJ, USA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#18

Post by cheezerrox » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:59 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:The proper name of God the Father is Yaweh, the proper name of (trinitarian speaking) "God the son" is Jesus. The Holy Spirit is just the Holy Spirit. In the Creeds it says we are not to confound or "confuse" the persons. So if Jesus is Yaweh isn't that "confusing" the persons?
People have pointed out to you in other threads, and even earlier in this one, that YHVH doesn't mean specifically "the Father." And "trinitarian speaking," there isn't a proper name for Jesus (other than, well, Jesus, maybe; although see Revelation 19:12), or for the Holy Spirit, or for the Father. If you simply disagreed with this assertion, then you could've provided a Scriptural reason why, but you simply repeated what you said before.
1stjohn0666 wrote:As I understand the (Creedal) triangle of the trinity, and Judaism YHVH IS the Father. The Father is not the son, the son is not the HS, the son is not the Father.....etc, but they are one God. YHVH is a proper name. So where in the bible is Jesus Jehovah/Yaweh/HaShem (Tanakh).... A lot of controversy on this one. THANKS SO FAR PEOPLE
As far as a Scripture that refers to Jesus as Hashem, in the Tanakh, Jeremiah 23:5-6 is one. It says

"'Behold, the days are coming,' declares Hashem,
'When I will raise up for David a Righteous Branch;
And He will reign as King and act wisely
And do justice and righteousness in the land.
In His days Judah will be saved,
And Isra'el will dwell securely;
And this is His Name by which He will be called,
"Hashem Tzidkeinu (YHVH our Righteousness)."'"

As far as the New Testament, it (as I'm sure you know) doesn't use the Name YHVH ever, and follows the Jewish tradition that still exists this day of replacing the Name with "Lord," or kurios in Greek, which was used in the Septuagint. Let's look at Philippians 2:9-11.

"For this reason also, G-d highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the Name which is above every name, so that at the Name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, AND THAT EVERY TONGUE WILL CONFESS that Jesus the Messiah is Lord (Kurios), to the glory of G-d the Father."

So Jesus has the Name which is above every name, and every knee of every angel ("who are in heaven"), every human ("and on earth"), and every demon ("and under the earth") will bow to Him. And, most importantly, every tongue will confess that Jesus is Kurios.

Now, the words in all capitals are quotations from a passage in the Tanakh, specifically Isaiah 45:23. It says,

"I have sworn by Myself,
The Word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance."

("The Word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness" Note: Remember that it's said of the Messiah (the Word) that He will be called "Hashem our Righteousness")

So here, even getting past titles and words and what-not, Hashem clearly says that every knee will bow to HIM, and every tongue will swear allegiance to HIM. And yet, Paul says this is to happen to Jesus. Strange, and contradictory, if Jesus is not Hashem.

Also, as I said earlier (and again, as I'm sure you know), Kurios was the Septuagint's way of saying the Hebrew Adonai, which is what Jewish tradition substituted YHVH for when pronounced. So for Paul to say, while quoting from a Tanakh passage, that "every tongue will confess" to Jesus in and of itself indicates that He is Hashem, but, he goes further and says that they will confess that He is Kurios. Adonai. Hashem. YHVH. Anyway you want to say it, it's saying the same thing.

YHVH is not JUST the Father. Trinitarianly speaking, YHVH is the G-dhead in all its fullness, Father, Word, and Spirit. Each individual Person of the Trinity is YHVH in His Own right. Yet, the Father is NOT the Word/Son, the Word/Son is NOT the Spirit, and the Spirit is NOT the Father.

It's as simple as that. And please, don't just ignore these points with another assertion of your own. If your position is true or reasonable, you'll be able to answer them.
"The prophet is a man who feels fiercely. G-d has thrust a burden upon his soul, and he is bowed and stunned at man's fierce greed. Frightful is the agony of man; no human voice can convey its full terror. Prophecy is the voice that G-d has lent to the silent agony, a voice to the plundered poor, to the profaned riches of the world. It is a form of living, a crossing point of G-d and man."
- Abraham Joshua Heschel

1stjohn0666
Valued Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:45 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#19

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:24 am

I don't think I can even reason it out. Jesus will be called YHVH+ something else.. Jer 33:16 Jerusalem will be called the same name. The name in Exodus 3:14 is Ehyeh asher Ehyeh. My wife was trying to pass the same message on to me calling God an egg and was very descriptive at what part of the egg was who. The whole thing is an egg. I thought .... makes sense. then she said a part went to Earth to live among us. I immediately said the egg is not a whole egg... she told me to shut up and listen. I did (I love her) She then said it is always a whole egg, it does not change. Anyway my head still hurts. But at least I am thinking. Thanks

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21641
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 203 times
Been liked: 1109 times

Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#20

Post by RickD » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:48 am

The old "egg" analogy. If it helps you understand, that's great. Another analogy which may help, is the water analogy. Whether it's ice, liquid water, or steam, it's still H2O. Same substance, different forms.

While analogies can help us understand the trinity somewhat, just remember, all analogies fail at some point.

I also like the ocean analogy. The ocean, the waves, and the ocean air. Each are the ocean, but are separate parts of the ocean. Again, all are the same substance.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

PaulSacramento
Board Moderator
Posts: 9228
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:29 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: Ontario, Canada
Has liked: 124 times
Been liked: 349 times

Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#21

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:19 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:I don't think I can even reason it out. Jesus will be called YHVH+ something else.. Jer 33:16 Jerusalem will be called the same name. The name in Exodus 3:14 is Ehyeh asher Ehyeh. My wife was trying to pass the same message on to me calling God an egg and was very descriptive at what part of the egg was who. The whole thing is an egg. I thought .... makes sense. then she said a part went to Earth to live among us. I immediately said the egg is not a whole egg... she told me to shut up and listen. I did (I love her) She then said it is always a whole egg, it does not change. Anyway my head still hurts. But at least I am thinking. Thanks
Perhaps you are hung up on names too much.
Wen Moses asked God for His name, He said " I am that I am".
In a modern version perhaps God would have said, " It is ENOUGH that I AM, I don't need no stinkin name to identify me, I am NOT human :P ".
God needs no name.
God is, by being God, beyond our ability to define and even though we try, we fall short.
We can NOT put our perceived limitations of beings on God, He is not subject to them.
God can be anyway He is and is not subject to our limited understanding of "logic" and "existence".

User avatar
Gman
Old School
Posts: 6081
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 10:36 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Northern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#22

Post by Gman » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:57 pm

If I were 1stjohn0666 I would stay away from the "The Way International." I use to be apart of this cult back in the 80's... They have numerous anti-biblical doctrine, one being they don't believe Jesus was G-d. This truly contradicts Isaiah 9:6 where Christ is also called G-d the father. A good article on the Trinity is http://carm.org/trinity.

Isaiah 9:6

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace.

Also "The Way" believes that if you only have "the faith" you can name it and claim it... Outside of G-d's will.. Truly cultist thinking...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

1stjohn0666
Valued Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:45 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#23

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:41 am

Isaiah 9:6 "he will be called "El'gibbor" <--- I don't rember the spelling. El'gibbor is also used of other people in the the bible. Still the doctrine of the trinity says the 3 persons are distinct from each other. (part of the Athanasian Creed) "there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost... there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts" This Creed does a good job explaining the trinity (in a sense) God the Father has a proper name, the son has a proper name, and the HS just gets a title "comforter" So when I see the statement that Jesus is Jehovah/YHVH, that would be incorrect according to the bible and the Creed. How do you see it?

User avatar
RickD
Board Moderator
Posts: 21641
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen
Has liked: 203 times
Been liked: 1109 times

Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#24

Post by RickD » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:23 am

So when I see the statement that Jesus is Jehovah/YHVH, that would be incorrect according to the bible and the Creed. How do you see it?
Please read cheezerrox's post a few posts up on this page.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#25

Post by B. W. » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:18 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:The proper name of God the Father is Yaweh, the proper name of (trinitarian speaking) "God the son" is Jesus. The Holy Spirit is just the Holy Spirit. In the Creeds it says we are not to confound or "confuse" the persons. So if Jesus is Yaweh isn't that "confusing" the persons?

....That does not answer the question I asked.
Look at this verse - everyone reading here please take a deep breath and please and read the bible verses below:

Exo 6:2 God spoke further to Moses and said to him, "I am the LORD;
Exo 6:3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty (El Shaddai), but by My name, LORD (YHWH), I did not make Myself known to them.
Exo 6:4 "I also established My covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land in which they sojourned
.

What does verse three reveal to you?

God was known in all the variations of Elohim and EL to all those that came before Moses time. Interesting, isn't it?

So to say YHWH refers only to the Father in all cases YHWH is used is based on a false assumption each member of the Divine Trinity cannot share the same name. The Patriarchs only knew YHWH as Elohim/EL in Geneisis.

According to tradtition. Moses wrote the first five books of the bible; therefore, his use of YHWH in Genesis was written in hindsight after God revealed his true nature (haElohim-Godhead/essence) to Moses. From that, Moses and those after him knew YHWH as any one member of the Divine Panim of God, either - singularly or in dualness, or even as all three in one being. All three - share and have the same name - YHWH in the OT. To be able to tell which panim (presences) of the Godhead is speaking in the OT. is often clearly identified by pronouns, nouns (El or Elohim) before or after YHWH.

Father is indentifed as YHWH, Jesus is identified as YHWH. Holy Spirit is also identified as YHWH because God is one echaud. Often in the OT, the Father is identified as YHWH ELOHIM (LORD God) so one can understand who is speaking. Almost in every case Malak (word bearing/task doing messenger) YHWH is used in the OT is refers to the preincarnate Jesus. In John 1:1, 14c there was a reason John chose the word WORD - identification. YHWH the Holy Spirit is often referred to in ways that denote, empowerment, births, and noted when the actual tone of voice changes in use of personal pronouns that go along within context of the speaking panim of YHWH or simply as - Ruach YHWH.

The below verse verifies what I have written:

Deut 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!

Deut 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: YHWH our Elohim, YHWH is echad (ai-echad)!

Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge
Deuteronomy 6:4

Shema Yisrael, Yehowah, Elohainoo, Yehowah aichod. "Hear, Israel, Jehovah, our God, is one Jehovah."

On this passage the Jews lay great stress; and it is one of the four passages which they write on their phylacteries. On the word Elohim, Simeon ben Joachi says: "Come and see the mystery of the word Elohim. There are three degrees, and each degree is by itself alone, and yet they are all one, and joined together in one, and are not divided from each other."

the Lord: Deut 4:35-36; Deut 5:6; 1Ki 18:21; 2Ki 19:5; 1Ch 29:10, Isa 42:8; Isa 44:6, Isa 44:8; Isa 45:5-6; Jer 10:10-11; Mark 12:29-32; John 17:8; 1Co 8:4-6; 1Ti 2:5
That was in the OT; therefore, as Exo 6:3 reveals - you can rightly say that that before Jesus came, God was only idenfied as Elohim, EL, YHWH in the human forms of human speach. But now that Jesus came, we now know the One God in is full essensce as Father , Son, and Holy Spirit as the Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge quoted above brings out.
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

User avatar
Gman
Old School
Posts: 6081
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 10:36 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Northern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#26

Post by Gman » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:32 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:Isaiah 9:6 "he will be called "El'gibbor" <--- I don't rember the spelling. El'gibbor is also used of other people in the the bible. Still the doctrine of the trinity says the 3 persons are distinct from each other. (part of the Athanasian Creed) "there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost... there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts" This Creed does a good job explaining the trinity (in a sense) God the Father has a proper name, the son has a proper name, and the HS just gets a title "comforter" So when I see the statement that Jesus is Jehovah/YHVH, that would be incorrect according to the bible and the Creed. How do you see it?
1stJohn, are you still part of "The Way?" I could talk to you more about this cult if you like... I've got most of the historical dirt on it...

As for the G-dhead, you have to remember that there are relations in the G-dhead between it's other parts or natures... Much like how relationships are formed in mankind. As an example, the relationships between man and woman. They are both "man" and are both created in the image of G-d. Therefore we can see that the image of G-d has two distinct natures in the case.. Man and woman, but are really one and become one flesh when they bond.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

1stjohn0666
Valued Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:45 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#27

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:03 am

Gman, I never was a part of the way, or it's splinter groups. However I do like most of the doctrines that are taught. I have yet to find one I would disagree with.

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#28

Post by B. W. » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:29 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:Gman, I never was a part of the way, or it's splinter groups. However I do like most of the doctrines that are taught. I have yet to find one I would disagree with.
You like the doctrines of TWI and agree with them so that is enough to put you into their camp - you cannot serve two masters...
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

1stjohn0666
Valued Member
Posts: 458
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:45 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#29

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:41 am

Are you implying that the people of the TWI cannot be saved? What about other faiths that accept Jesus as Lord and savior? "Serving two masters" If I attend two different churches, how am I serving two different masters? I am not a follower of the church rather I am a follower of Christ.

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: Jesus is YHVH??

#30

Post by B. W. » Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:23 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:Are you implying that the people of the TWI cannot be saved? What about other faiths that accept Jesus as Lord and savior? "Serving two masters" If I attend two different churches, how am I serving two different masters? I am not a follower of the church rather I am a follower of Christ.
Depends on which Jesus you believe in:

A mere creature being?

If the Jesus you believe in a mere human only creature being, then the answer is a resounding NO - why? The only savior that can save humanity from sins is YHWH as the bible plainle teaches. That kind and type of Glory - God will not give to another (as the bible teaches). Belief in another Jesus will not save anyone. sorry...

If the Jesus you believe in is the God/Man Jesus - then - YES - a person is saved - Why? Becuase that Jesus meets the requirments and is able to save to the uttermost --- Isaiah 45:22c
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

Post Reply