Answers for B.W.

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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B. W.
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#91

Post by B. W. » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:05 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:When Jesus said " My God and Your God" to his followers when telling them where he was going back to....
"going back" is not in the text.
God shares His Glory with NO ONE (Isa 48:11c) nor will he permit another to be worshiped. People from the way type groups cannot reason nor see the role of the Messiah as being 100% God and 100% Man. They get this confused in their dictation machine approach, only see the manward side as the only side. Cannot fathom Philippians 2:6-11, Isa 45:23c either. Can't see the forest for trees. Can’t see any of this. Instead they worship another jesus – a created being – that causes those in heaven worshiping Christ to break the first commandment and have God break his own rules, his own words, and promises too!
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#92

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:14 am

How can God break his own rules? If God commands something and we say no, it is us that are breaking his.

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#93

Post by RickD » Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:04 am

For those reading, what 1stjohn0666 believes, is not Christian. His beliefs are cultic. This article explains this:http://carm.org/what-makes-church-or-gr ... -christian

From the article:
  Nevertheless, what makes something non-Christian is when it denies the essential doctrines of the Bible.

The Deity of Christ, which involves The Trinity
the Resurrection, and
Salvation by Grace
As you can see, 1stjohn0666 doesn't believe in the Deity of Jesus Christ.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Answers for B.W.

#94

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:09 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:When Jesus said " My God and Your God" to his followers when telling them where he was going back to....
"going back" is not in the text.
He said he was return to the father.
return pretty much implies "going back".

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#95

Post by B. W. » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:06 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:How can God break his own rules? If God commands something and we say no, it is us that are breaking his.
The answer I gave on another thread fits here as well for an answer...
B. W. wrote:Denying the Divine Trinity’s oneness would cause people, like john666, to promote a doctrine that justifies breaking the first commandment, because God says it is okay to break his law, even in heaven. Such is the manner that the way groups do, create a climate where people actually break the first commandment and justify themselves for doing so – amazing.

Exodus 20:3, 4, 5, "You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me

They cannot see for example that for God to make Jesus a created being who is worthy to be worshiped in heaven as Revelation 5:11, 12, 13, 14 says (Lamb of God) is in direct violation of God’s own Commandment – the First.

God making a created being to be worshiped is in violation of the above verse As well as in direct violation from the mouth of God spoken in Isa 42:8, Isa 48:11c – God will not share his Glory with another.
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#96

Post by Canuckster1127 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:18 am

“Do we not have one God and one Christ? Is there not one spirit of Grace poured out upon us? (Clement of Rome, A.D. 96)

“Who then would not be astonished to hear men called atheist who speak of God the Father, God the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction in order? (Athenagoras, A.D. 175)

“We acknowledge a God, and a Son (His Logos), and a Holy Spirit. These are united in essence – the Father, the Son and the Spirit.” (Athenagoras, A.D. 175)

“The three days which were before the limunaries are types of the Triad God, His Word and His Wisdom.” (Theophilus, A.D. 180)

“I have also largely demonstrated that the Word, namely the Son, was always with the Father.” (Irenaeus, A.D. 180)

“The universal Father is one. The universal Word is one. And the Holy Spirit is one.” (Clement of Alexandria, A.D. 195)

“Thank the One only Father and Son, Son and Father. The Son is the instructor and teacher, along with the Holy Spirit. They are all in One, in whom is all, for whom all is One, for whom is eternity.” (Clement of Alexandria, A.D. 195)

“We pray at minimum not less then three times per day. For we are debtors to three: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” (Tertullian, A.D. 195)

“Who will not say that there is one God? Yet, he will not on that account deny the economy.” (Hippolytus, A.D. 205)

“If then the Word was with God and was also God, what follows? Would one say that I speak of two Gods? I will not indeed speak of two Gods, but of one. I speak of two persons, however, and of a third economy – the grace of the Holy Spirit…the economy of harmony is led back to one God. For God is one. The Father who commands, the Son who obeys and the Spirit who gives understanding.” (Hippolytus, A.D. 205 – Note, all citations via Bercot)
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#97

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:30 am

I love "post biblical" ideology....

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#98

Post by Canuckster1127 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:34 am

Apparently you must. This demonstrates Trinitarianism from the earliest writings in the Church from the first century.
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#99

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:51 am

If we go by what the bible says rather than the Greek philosophers we have a truly monotheistic book.
Jesus in the texts NEVER said he was "returning" look up the Greek (fact)

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#100

Post by Canuckster1127 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:55 am

Strawman. That's not the foundation for Trinitarianism in the New Testament.
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#101

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:06 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:If we go by what the bible says rather than the Greek philosophers we have a truly monotheistic book.
Jesus in the texts NEVER said he was "returning" look up the Greek (fact)
Ok, maybe you didn't read what I wrote earlier, nevertheless:
John 16:28
"I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father."

I don't know how you understand "come forth from the Father" and "leaving the world again and going to the father", but it seems pretty clear to me.
Jesus states he cam from the father and now that he is leaving this world again and going to the Father.
Not sure how you interpret that passage but where I coem from "come forth and going to" the SAME SOURCE implies returing or going back.
So...

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#102

Post by B. W. » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:55 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:...Jesus in the texts NEVER said he was "returning" look up the Greek (fact)
As PaulSacramneto mentions - John 16:28

There is also John 13:1, 3 is pretty clear as well too

Also even on a different note:

Acts 1:11, Luke 21:27 Jesus is returning in the future as well...

You need to re-check your facts...
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#103

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:09 am

John 16:28 is by no means a preexisting Jesus proof text. "and am come into the world: again (as I have just said) I leave the world and return to the Father" Read the chapter of John 16. John 13:3 the Greek does NOT have "go back" or "return" We can look at the poorly translated KJV for the time they got it correct as does the Greek, again NO "go back" or "return" John 20:17 this is a good text that says Jesus has a God to "ascend to" not only that but again there is no "return" or "go back"
As for Jesus coming back after his ascension, I have no argument about that. I believe it to be true.

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#104

Post by B. W. » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:41 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:John 16:28 is by no means a preexisting Jesus proof text. "and am come into the world: again (as I have just said) I leave the world and return to the Father" Read the chapter of John 16. John 13:3 the Greek does NOT have "go back" or "return" We can look at the poorly translated KJV for the time they got it correct as does the Greek, again NO "go back" or "return" John 20:17 this is a good text that says Jesus has a God to "ascend to" not only that but again there is no "return" or "go back"
As for Jesus coming back after his ascension, I have no argument about that. I believe it to be true.

More talking points - these verse and even John 3:13 tell that Jesus pre-existed as does Philippians 2:6, 7. 8, 9, 10, 11 as does much of the OT as well too.

You bought into a lie and simply cannot reason. Why, reason would set you free and you would find the real Jesus who actually saves.

Answer the question:

What does Jesus' atonement mean to you - only saved from past sins, from present sins only, or all future sins? actuall answer the question this time fully to show that you have not lost ablity to reason...
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#105

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:03 am

I like Ph 2:6 "did NOT regard EQUALITY WITH GOD" <--- strong monotheistic POV from Paul. in those scrips Jesus was "made"

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