Answers for B.W.

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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B. W.
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#61

Post by B. W. » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:39 am

1stjohn0666, was Jesus Christ born of a virgin?

Do the Greek words in John 1:1, "the Word was with God" actually mean to you that "Jesus Christ was with God in His foreknowledge"?

How many people were crucified with Christ Jesus when he died?

In regards to the Holy Spirit, is the Holy Spirit a holy spirit, God the Father only?

What is your view on the atonement of Jesus Christ?
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#62

Post by B. W. » Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:42 am

1stjohn0666, regarding the word translated begotten – please see the quote below as it answer this very well...
Quoted from AMG’s The Complete Word Study Dictionary

Strongs Number 3439

μονογενής

monogenēs; gen. monogenoús, masc.-fem., neut. monogenón, from mónos (3441), only, and génos (1085), stock. Unique, one of a kind, one and only.

The only one of the family (Luke 7:12 referring to the only son of his mother; Luke 8:42, the daughter of Jairus; Luke 9:38, the demoniac boy).

John alone uses monogenēs to describe the relation of Jesus to God the Father, presenting Him as the unique one, the only one (mónos) of a class or kind (génos), in the discussion of the relationship of the Son to the Father (John1:14, John1:18; John 3:16, John 3:18; 1John 4:9).

Génos, from which genḗs in monogenēs is derived, means race, stock, family, class or kind, and génō comes from gínomai (1096), become, as in John1:14, "and the Word became [egéneto] flesh." This is in distinction from gennáō (1080), to beget, engender or create. The noun from gennáō is génnēma (1081), the result of birth. So then, the word means one of a kind or unique.

There are two schools of thought regarding the meaning of this term. The first view, which began with Origen, teaches that Christ's unique Sonship and His generation by the Father are eternal being predicated of Him in respect to His participation in the Godhead.

Although monogenḗs was traditionally cited in proof of this explanation, modern proponents, recognizing the mistaken identification of genḗs as a derivative of gennáō instead of génos, understand the word to be descriptive of the kind of Sonship Christ possesses and not of the process establishing such a relationship. This would serve to distinguish the Sonship of Christ to God from that spoken of other beings, e.g., Adam (Luke 3:28), angels (Job 1:6), or believers (John1:12).

The last view teaches that Christ's unique Sonship and generation by the Father are predicated of Him in respect to the incarnation. The proponents of this interpretation unequivocally affirm the triune nature of the Godhead and Christ's deity teaching that it is the word lógos (3056), Word, which designates His personage within the Godhead. Christ's Sonship expresses an economical relationship between the Word and the Father assumed via the incarnation.

This stands in fulfillment of OT prophecies which identify Christ as both human, descending from David, and divine, originating from God. Like David and the other kings descending from him, Christ is the Son of God by position (2 Sam 7:14), but unlike them and because of His divine nature, He is par excellence the Son of God by nature (Psalms 2:7; Heb 1:5). Thus the appellation refers to the incarnate Word, God made flesh, not simply the preincarnate Word.

Therefore, monogenēs can be held as syn. with the God-Man. Jesus was the only such one ever, in distinction with the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Triune God.

He is never called téknon Theoú (téknon [5043], child; Theoú [2316], of God) as the believers are (John1:12; John11:52; 1 John3:1-2, 1 John3:10; 1 John5:2). In John5:18, Jesus called God His very own (ídion [2398]) Father. To Jesus, God was not a Father as He is to us. See John 20:17. He never spoke of God as the common Father of Him and believers. The term monogenḗs also occurs in Heb 11:17.
So then, the word begotten means one of a kind / unique.
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#63

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:11 am

I do not read John 1:1 "In the beginning was the son, and the son was with God, and the son was God"
I read John 1:1 "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God" I don't capitalize "word" to denote a person. John 1 and Gen 1 are in harmony and without contradiction.
God spoke in the beginning of Genesis, thus the word is the beginning of John.
Jesus had two others we know of at the crucifixion.
Jesus was born of a virgin birth.

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#64

Post by RickD » Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:55 am

1stjohn, which bible are you reading that doesn't have Word with a capital W? Word is capitalized in the translation. You can't just say, "I'm not going to read John 1:1 with Word being capitalized". That's the proper translation, because Word refers to Jesus. Jesus is the Word of God.
I don't think Bart will mind, but this article he wrote explains Jesus as the Word of God:
https://bartbreen.wordpress.com/2010/10 ... rd-of-god/
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Answers for B.W.

#65

Post by B. W. » Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:39 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:I do not read John 1:1 "In the beginning was the son, and the son was with God, and the son was God"
I read John 1:1 "In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God" I don't capitalize "word" to denote a person. John 1 and Gen 1 are in harmony and without contradiction.
God spoke in the beginning of Genesis, thus the word is the beginning of John.
Jesus had two others we know of at the crucifixion.
Jesus was born of a virgin birth.
Thank you for the answers as this helps clear the air on these matters and provides a platfrom to build off of - as Rick has started.

So...what about the next two questions:

...In regards to the Holy Spirit, is the Holy Spirit a holy spirit, God the Father only?

What is your view on the atonement of Jesus Christ?
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#66

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:27 pm

My Greek bible is "all CAPS" or one case letter. John 1:1 looks like this "INTHEBEGINNINGWASTHEWORDANDTHEWORDWASEWITHGODANDTHEWORDWASGOD" at least from a Greek to English description. I like the last part of the Greek text of John 1:1 which literally is "kai theos en o logos" = "and God was the word"

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#67

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:27 pm

HS is God in action

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#68

Post by B. W. » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:09 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:HS is God in action
THis does not answer the questions posed to you...

In your view - concerning the Holy Spirit - do you consider the Holy Spirit as a person of the Divine Trinity (HaElohim) or not a person. Next, what is your view on Acts 2:18 and Acts 10:45.

Also on the atonement - do you think that the blood of Christ does not finally save anyone, but only saves people merely from the death penalty of sin?
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#69

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:50 am

I don't subscribe to the "trinity theory"

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#70

Post by B. W. » Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:56 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:I don't subscribe to the "trinity theory"
This does not answer the questions:

In your view - concerning the Holy Spirit - do you consider the Holy Spirit as a person of the Divine Trinity (HaElohim) or not a person. Next, what is your view on Acts 2:18 and Acts 10:45.

Also on the atonement - do you think that the blood of Christ does not finally save anyone, but only saves people merely from the death penalty of sin?


Make it as simple as I can, please explain in detail your view point on the Holy Spirit?

As well as answer question concerning on the blood of Christ, in detail, not short vague quips…

If you cannot, then you must have some short of fear of not being able to defend you points of view…
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#71

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:41 am

In your view - concerning the Holy Spirit - do you consider the Holy Spirit as a person of the Divine Trinity (HaElohim) or not a person. Next, what is your view on Acts 2:18 and Acts 10:45. = God in action

Also on the atonement - do you think that the blood of Christ does not finally save anyone, but only saves people merely from the death penalty of sin? The Father gave the sheep to Jesus, which Jesus gives to his God and Father "so that God can be all in all" We are saved "through" the blood of Christ.

Make it as simple as I can, please explain in detail your view point on the Holy Spirit? = God in action

As well as answer question concerning on the blood of Christ, in detail, not short vague quips…

If you cannot, then you must have some short of fear of not being able to defend you points of view…

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#72

Post by B. W. » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:24 pm

In your view - concerning the Holy Spirit - do you consider the Holy Spirit as a person of the Divine Trinity (HaElohim) or not a person?

Next, what is your view on Acts 2:18 and Acts 10:45.
1stjohn0666 wrote: = God in action
Make it as simple as I can, please explain in detail your view point on the Holy Spirit?
1stjohn0666 wrote:= God in action
The phrase God in action has no concret meaning attached to it. It can mean anything.... So...

Again, what does God in action mean to you. Is the Holy Spirit a mere force of action or the divine 3rd person of the Godhead (HaElohim) to you?

Next,

On the atonement - do you think that the blood of Christ does not finally save anyone, but only saves people merely from the death penalty of sin?
1stjohn0666 wrote:The Father gave the sheep to Jesus, which Jesus gives to his God and Father "so that God can be all in all" We are saved "through" the blood of Christ.


What do you mean by "so that God can be all in all" and what are people saved from by the Blood of Christ?

Please actually answer the question concerning on the blood of Christ, in detail and not in short vague quips as you did.

If you cannot, then you must have some short of fear of not being able to defend you points of view
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#73

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:46 am

I don't subscribe to the "trinity theory" so you can stop asking if I believe Father, son, HS are a trinity.
The HS is God in action with his own creation. You asked for simplicity.
"So that God can be all in all" 1 Cor 15:24-28 The Father gave the sheep to his son, and the son must return the sheep to his Father who is "the only true God" John 17:3
We are saved "through" the blood of Christ. God sent his son, (who is not God) to come and redeem us from our sins. John 3:36

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#74

Post by RickD » Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:54 am

1stjohn, if Jesus isn't God incarnate as you say, how can he redeem us from anything? God demands a perfect sacrifice. If Jesus has only a human nature, then he couldn't be a perfect, sinless sacrifice.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Answers for B.W.

#75

Post by RickD » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:12 am

From :http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/bible-qu ... saved.html
Bible Question:Does a person have to believe the doctrine of the Trinity in order to be saved? Can a person only believe that Jesus is the Lord and Savior and the Son of God, but not necessarily God and be saved? And in the Old Testament do you think it is God the Father only who speaks? If so, did the Jews at that time only know part of God?

Bible Answer: Jesus makes the following surprise statement in John 8:24,
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins. John 8:24 (NAS95S)

The Greek words that are translated as "I AM" are EGO EIMI. Note that the word "He" is not in the Greek text. Therefore, the word "He" should be deleted in the passage and the verse should read as follows,
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins. John 8:24 (NLT)

Jesus declared that He was and is the "I AM" of the Old Testament (Exodus 3:14). Thirty four verses later Jesus repeated His statement in a different way,
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” John 8:58 (NAS95S)

The Greek words that are translated as "I AM" in verse 58 are again EGO EIMI. Verse 58 reveals that Jesus taught that He was God. The context of John 7 and 8 also confirms that Jesus declared that He was God. So when Jesus said in the first passage that one must believe that "I AM," He was declaring that we must believe that Jesus is God in order to be a Christian - to go to heaven.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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