Answers for B.W.

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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B. W.
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#46

Post by B. W. » Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:34 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:…Jesus is the son of the living God.. Peter affirms my correct answer. Jesus is NOT God. Jesus did as his Father and God commissioned him as Messiah.

…I could list many things that Jesus accomplished, and even Jesus asking for rewards for what he did from his Father. One thing he accomplished is that he became the sacrifice (without spot) .. so that we can have eternal life

…without spot or blemish...Perfect sacrifice…

In the other area "inspired or dictated" The us is clearly the heavenly court (angels). Job 38:7 "when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Lets keep "inspired or dictated" to that topic. We should keep any debate here, it's kind of fun.
Now that Job 38 was addressed on my last post on page three (please read), and shown by Gen 2:7 that the US in Gen 1:26 does not refer to angelic beings having any part in creation compounded with various scriptures that verify that God alone created we can move on to Isa 48:11-16 and verse 16. The person that is speaking in verse 16 is the same ‘I’ mentioned in Isa 48:12-15 and not Isaiah rudely interjecting himself, adding his words to the First and Last’s words as suggested by those monotheists who deny who Jesus really is/was/and always will be..

Isaiah would have know that Proverbs 30:6 forbids such adding to God’s ‘I’ statements. Also, the context and grammar flow from verses 11 thru 15 identifies in contextual continuity that the ‘I’ speaking in Isa 48:16 is indeed the one speaking in Isa 48:12. Any other translation that Isaiah decided to suddenly, rudely, break into God’s speaking in verse 16 and call himself ‘I’ is absurd as well as violates all rules of grammatical continuity/construct.

Now we can move on and answer john666 answers that he knows Jesus was not God, yet, able to offer a perfect, spotless sacrifice for sins. How can that be when the bible dictates in Isa 43:11c, Isa 45:21, 22c, Hosea 13:4. Luke 2:11, Acts 4:12, Titus 2:13, 1 John 5:20, 21c, Jude 1:25. Isa 44:6, 7, 8c that only God is savior?

Isaiah 53:1-12 speaks of Arm of the Lord coming and Isa 7:14, Isa 9:6 tell us how. Isa 51:5, Isa 52:10, Isa 59:16, Isa 63:5 also speaks of the arm of the Lord who does what?

If Jesus was only a mere mortal man as John666 says, then how could Jesus really be spotless, without sin and able to forgive sins? Does not Psalms 51:5 and Eph 2:3 speak that no human being is spotless, or able to keep the whole law (Rom 3:20, Gal 2:16c)?

Bible teaches that only God can really forgive all sins. The religious leaders of Jesus days knew this; Mark 2:7, "Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?" NASB

Note also: Isa 43:25; Dan 9:9; Micah 7:18; Luke 5:21, Luke7:49

The only sins a person can forgive are those we deem indebted to us due to some infraction against us in some manner. We can forgive such infractions and are required too.

However, we cannot forgive the entire world of its infractions and rebellion as Jesus did who is the spotless Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world…John 1:29, Isa 53:11, Hosea 14:2, 1 Pet 1:19, Gal 1:4, 1 Co 15:3, Daniel 9:24

Only God can do that and only He can save. The Messiah Jesus was both 100 percent man and 100 percent God as Isa 9:6, Isa 43:11c, Isa 53:1-12, John 1:14 reveals could forgive, atone for the sins of the entire world and be spotless without sin.

Again this demonstrates the inspired dictation from the Lord God as no man could have ever dreamt this up.

...Human beings are glory hounds, seeking the self glory of man alone preferring to save themselves through self glorifying efforts and deal making… Think about it
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P.S. for more information please see the Threadline I made entitled: Old Testament Concept of God on this site at:

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 22&t=33317
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#47

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:25 pm

The one speaking in the Isaiah scrips you gave is Yaweh not Jesus. Jesus brings us to God. Jesus has a Father who is "the only true God" Romans 5:9 we are saved "through" Christ. Thus the statement "no man comes to the Father except "through" me.

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#48

Post by RickD » Tue Jul 31, 2012 3:20 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:The one speaking in the Isaiah scrips you gave is Yaweh not Jesus. Jesus brings us to God. Jesus has a Father who is "the only true God" Romans 5:9 we are saved "through" Christ. Thus the statement "no man comes to the Father except "through" me.
You're just not getting it, 1stjohn. Jesus is God. Yahweh is God. The Father/Son relationship is so we humans can understand the trinity, to some degree. The bible is absolutely clear, that Jesus is God. Jesus is the second person of the trinity, and He has always existed. Before Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and born to a virgin, He already was. He is the Alpha and the Omega. Jesus' sacrifice would be meaningless, if he was merely human. There needed to be a perfect sacrifice for the sins of humanity. Only God is perfect and without sin. So, only God humbling Himself, by death on a cross, taking all of humanity's sins upon Himself, is efficacious.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



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Re: Answers for B.W.

#49

Post by B. W. » Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:58 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:The one speaking in the Isaiah scrips you gave is Yaweh not Jesus. Jesus brings us to God. Jesus has a Father who is "the only true God" Romans 5:9 we are saved "through" Christ. Thus the statement "no man comes to the Father except "through" me.
Look at the spelling without the vowels - YHWH. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all bear the same name because they are one.

As I stated before, in Isa 48:11-16, the person that is speaking in verse 16 is the same ‘I’ mentioned in Isa 48:12, not Isaiah rudely interjecting himself, adding his words to the First and Last’s words as suggested by those monotheists who deny who Jesus really is/was/and always will be.

Adoni YHWH and His Spirit who sent the First and the Last - this speaks of Father and Holy Spirit sending forth the Son. You have the Godhead mentioned by God himself in these passages as well as others.

Next

For Jesus to be able to forgive/atone for sins of the entire world, he must be God.

How could Jesus be spotless and take way sins, atone/forgive sins of the world if but a mere mortal man when the bible plainly says these truths about YHWH: Isa 43:11-13, Isa 45:21-22; Acts 4:12, Hosea 13:4c?

How could YHWH be the only means of salvation, by using what amounts, according to your view John666, a mere mortal megaphone for God?

If Jesus was just only a mere mortal man he would have an inherent sin nature as all human beings do so how could he really be spotless without sin as the bible teaches?

Please read these verses - what they mean to you: John 1:29, Isa 53:11, 1 Pet 1:19, Gal 1:4, 1 Co 15:3, Daniel 9:24
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#50

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:27 am

RickD wrote:
1stjohn0666 wrote:The one speaking in the Isaiah scrips you gave is Yaweh not Jesus. Jesus brings us to God. Jesus has a Father who is "the only true God" Romans 5:9 we are saved "through" Christ. Thus the statement "no man comes to the Father except "through" me.
You're just not getting it, 1stjohn. Jesus is God. Yahweh is God. The Father/Son relationship is so we humans can understand the trinity, to some degree. The bible is absolutely clear, that Jesus is God. Jesus is the second person of the trinity, and He has always existed. Before Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit, and born to a virgin, He already was. He is the Alpha and the Omega. Jesus' sacrifice would be meaningless, if he was merely human. There needed to be a perfect sacrifice for the sins of humanity. Only God is perfect and without sin. So, only God humbling Himself, by death on a cross, taking all of humanity's sins upon Himself, is efficacious.
Honestly I think the issue here is this ( and I have seen this before):
God = YHWH
YHWH = Creator God
Creator God = The father
Jesus = God
God = Father and father = Jesus ???
And that is the confusion, some people view the term GOD as the NAME of God and not the term we use to describe the being that is God.
So, to say Jesus is God, is viewed by some as meaning Jesus is "The Father".
If the term God is accepted as a designation of the nature of a being ( like Human) then Jesus being God means that Jesus is of the same nature as God.
Father, Son and HS share the same nature and as such, all 3 are God BUT neither are each other ( Jesus is NOT the father, not is The father Jesus).
Of course the fact that they are spirit and NOT corpreal in their plane of existence is something that people forget too.
There is no reason to believe that Father, Son and HS can NOT exist as ONE being because to say that CAN'T be is to put a limitation on God and as such, God is NOT omnipotent and is NOT God.

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#51

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:54 am

Adoni is not Yaweh, Adonai is Yaweh. Psalm 110:1 is an easy one to pick "The Lord said to my Lord" Adoni is the Messiah. Jesus is not Adonai. The doctrine of the trinity even states it. Jesus did not preexist himself. The Psalms affirm this. Begotten means to come into existence, so if you are already existing, what is the purpose of the begetting. If we apply the God "title" to Jesus, we all know that God is eternal, and cannot die and Jesus fully died. Jesus is "the son of God" and the words are never tuned around in all of scripture.

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#52

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:06 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:Adoni is not Yaweh, Adonai is Yaweh. Psalm 110:1 is an easy one to pick "The Lord said to my Lord" Adoni is the Messiah. Jesus is not Adonai. The doctrine of the trinity even states it. Jesus did not preexist himself. The Psalms affirm this. Begotten means to come into existence, so if you are already existing, what is the purpose of the begetting. If we apply the God "title" to Jesus, we all know that God is eternal, and cannot die and Jesus fully died. Jesus is "the son of God" and the words are never tuned around in all of scripture.
A jew would beg to differ that Adonai is NOT Yahweh in certain verses, but that aside.
Jesus died in body only, where does it state that Jesus FULLY died? ( by fully that would mean even His Spirit).
God is eternal, yes and that very quality is given to Jesus in revelation and in the GOJ.
Jesus did NOT preexist, yes, because Jesus is the Incarnate Word of God, the Son of God that is the Word of God has existed in the "bosom" of the Father since ever.
To suggest otherwise is to suggest that God CHANGES.

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#53

Post by RickD » Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:33 am

1stjohn, it seems you hold to some form of Arianism:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism#section_2

Arianism is heresy, and idolatry:
http://carm.org/arianism
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#54

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:35 am

It seems that he holds some of the same views that Jehovahs Witnesses hold.

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#55

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:56 am

Produce one scripture where Adonai is a human. Adonai is a divine title for the one true God. Yes I may hold some beliefs of Arianism, such as Jesus did not preexist himself.
Maybe you hold a "heretical belief" as well, such as "That immediately upon death you "go to" heaven.
Luke 8:39 does not support equality with God, it does support that God works "through" Jesus doing his miracles. Jesus only said and did what the Father said to say and do.

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#56

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:19 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:Produce one scripture where Adonai is a human. Adonai is a divine title for the one true God. Yes I may hold some beliefs of Arianism, such as Jesus did not preexist himself.
Maybe you hold a "heretical belief" as well, such as "That immediately upon death you "go to" heaven.
Luke 8:39 does not support equality with God, it does support that God works "through" Jesus doing his miracles. Jesus only said and did what the Father said to say and do.
Not sure what you are asking...are you asking to produce one verse that shows the title "adonai" applied to a human?
You seem to be confused about a few things:
"
Jesus did not preexist himself"
: That is correct, the divine Word of God that is His ONLY Son that became incarnate as Jesus did preexist.
"Maybe you hold a "heretical belief" as well, such as "That immediately upon death you "go to" heaven."
: Upon death the spirit returns to God, God is in Heaven, there is NOTHING heretical about what is plainly stated in the bible.
Luke 8:39 does not support equality with God, it does support that God works "through" Jesus doing his miracles. Jesus only said and did what the Father said to say and do
: No, what Luke supports was that when told to tell people what God did, the former demoniac told them what Jesus had done.
He equated Jesus and God as One, that Jesus healed and had the authority from God and was doing what he was doing In the Name of God.
You do realize what that MEANS to a 1st century Jew right?
I shouldn't confuse equlaity of nature with equality of authority.
Jesus is the same nature and the exact representation of God as per Paul ( you do know what it means for a 1st century Jew to state that, right?) that does NOT mean He has equality of authority as The father.

I am equal to my father in Nature, as you are to yours, but I "submit" myself to my Father authority.

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#57

Post by RickD » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:22 pm

From CARM:
At Jesus' incarnation, the Arians asserted that the divine quality of the Son, the Logos, took the place of the human and spiritual aspect of Jesus, thereby denying the full and complete incarnation of God the Son, second person of the Trinity.

In asserting that Christ the Son, as a created thing, was to be worshipped, the Arians were advocating idolatry.
1stjohn. By not believing Jesus Christ is God, you are worshiping an idol.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Kenny wrote:
"You don’t need faith, logic, reason, proof, or anything else to be atheist, all you need to do is reject what someone told you."



St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#58

Post by B. W. » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:12 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:Produce one scripture where Adonai is a human. Adonai is a divine title for the one true God. Yes I may hold some beliefs of Arianism, such as Jesus did not preexist himself.
Maybe you hold a "heretical belief" as well, such as "That immediately upon death you "go to" heaven.
Luke 8:39 does not support equality with God, it does support that God works "through" Jesus doing his miracles. Jesus only said and did what the Father said to say and do.
I did... do you recall just a few post ago?

Isa 48:16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord (Adonai) YHWH and His Spirit Have sent Me." NKJV

You have the something of note being said here. You have YHWH saying the lord YHWH and His Spirit sent Him to speak. Jesus is known as the Word in John 1:1. Who would be the lord YHWH and why was adonai (Lord) placed before the name? It Identifies the Father and His Sprit - the Holy Spirit sent him!

Isa 48:11-16 and verse 16. The person that is speaking in verse 16 is the same ‘I’ mentioned in Isa 48:12-15 and not Isaiah rudely interjecting himself, adding his words to the First and Last’s words as suggested by those monotheists who deny who Jesus really is/was/and always will be..

Isaiah would have know that Proverbs 30:6 forbids such adding to God’s ‘I’ statements. Also, the context and grammar flow from verses 11 thru 15 identifies in contextual continuity that the ‘I’ speaking in Isa 48:16 is indeed the one speaking in Isa 48:12. Any other translation that Isaiah decided to suddenly, rudely, break into God’s speaking in verse 16 and call himself ‘I’ is absurd as well as violates all rules of grammatical continuity/construct.

You have three mentioned in the text...

Now we can move on and answer john666 answers that he knows Jesus was not God, yet, able to offer a perfect, spotless sacrifice for sins. How can that be when the bible dictates in Isa 43:11c, Isa 45:21, 22c, Hosea 13:4. Luke 2:11, Acts 4:12, Titus 2:13, 1 John 5:20, 21c, Jude 1:25. Isa 44:6, 7, 8c that only God is savior?

Do you think, john666, Jesus Christ forgives sins, today, as John 3:15-16 say?

Also the Greek word 'Begotten' actually means - unique one - one of a kind - not created...
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#59

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:47 pm

Do I worship Jesus.... NO. When I pray it is like as Jesus taught in Matt 6:9 "Our Father who art in heaven".... I pray to the Father "through" his son Jesus, who is mediator between God and man. If Jesus was God Matt 6:9 should be read "Our 3 in 1 who is standing right here" God would be an "it" rather than a "he"
Last edited by 1stjohn0666 on Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#60

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:50 pm

Jesus is and forever will be subordinate to his Father and God

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