Answers for B.W.

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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B. W.
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#16

Post by B. W. » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:40 pm

1stjohn0666 wrote:I still see Deut 18:18 harmonizing John 1:14. The Father put his words in his sons mouth "to be made known" to us. Jesus only spoke the words of his Father, who put them very "words" there. I have never ran across the "incarnation" in the bible.
11 and 12

It is all over the bible both Old and New Testament. It is just that you don't see it.

What did Jesus Christ do? What was the point of his ministry?
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#17

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:10 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:I still see Deut 18:18 harmonizing John 1:14. The Father put his words in his sons mouth "to be made known" to us. Jesus only spoke the words of his Father, who put them very "words" there. I have never ran across the "incarnation" in the bible.
Are you saying that Jesus was just like Isaiah, Elijah, Jeremiah and the other OT prophets that spoke for God ( God put words in their mouth) ?
Because the writings of the NT gospels and letters clearly state that is NOT the case.
NO prophet is Lord and Saviour, no prophet could forgive sin and NONE of those prophets Name gave salvation, none of those prophets gave the HS to anyone and NONE of those prophets were resurrected OR called the ONLY Son of God or ever claimed they were ONE with God.

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#18

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:33 pm

Jesus is described as a prophet in the new testament, but also Jesus is clearly the "unique son of the only true God"

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#19

Post by neo-x » Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:49 pm

1stjohn0666 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:33 am

Jesus is described as a prophet in the new testament, but also Jesus is clearly the "unique son of the only true God"
Have you read the new testament entirly including Pauline letters as well the the epistle to Hebrews.

Quoting from Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23 says, "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
According to both of these verses, Jesus was "God with us" when He walked upon this earth. He wasn't merely "God's chosen one with us" or "God's Son with us."

As I Timothy 3:16 states, "God was manifest in the flesh." John 1:14 tells us that "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us..." In Zechariah 12:10, GOD said that HE (God) would be "pierced" by sinners, and Revelation 1:7 states that Jesus Christ Himself fulfilled this prophecy!

When a paralyzed man was let down through the roof wanting to be healed by him, Jesus said, "Son, your sins are forgiven you." The religious leaders immediately reacted. "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

In John 10:28, Jesus said, "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." If Jesus Christ isn't eternal, then how does He have the power to give "eternal life"?

In John 8:58, Jesus said to the Pharisees, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." The term "I am" is the exact term that God used in Exodus 3:14 in reference to Himself! Jesus professed to be the eternal God of the Bible.

He allows Thomas to address Him as "My Lord and my God" in John 20:28

God is the "saviour" in Isaiah 43:3, 43:11, 45:15, 45:21, Hosea 13:4, Luke 1:47, and I Timothy 4:10, yet this same title is given to Jesus Christ in Luke 2:11, Philippians 3:20, II Timothy 1:10, and II Peter 2:20.

Jesus referred to Himself as the “I AM” which was the name that God Himself used when He spoke to Moses out of the burning bush (John 8:56-59, Exodus 3:13-14). The Jews sought to stone Jesus because they thought that He was guilty of blasphemy (John 8:59, Leviticus 24:16). Jesus claimed to be the First and the Last (Revelation 1:11,17-18,2:8) which is a name that God claims for Himself (Isaiah 44:6). Jesus also claimed to be the Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8,11) and the Almighty (Revelation 1:8).

God is "light" in Psalm 27:1 and Micah 7:8, and then Jesus is "light" in John 1:4-9 and in John 8:12.

John the baptist was questioned by the people because they wanted to know if he was in fact the promised Christ (Messiah) or if he was some other prophet (John 1:19-21). John responded to their inquiry by quoting from the Old Testament book of Isaiah. Here John makes a very revealing statement not only about his own identity, but the true identity of Jesus Christ also:
(Isaiah 40:3)
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our GOD .
The Hebrew word for Lord that is used in this verse is YHWH. The Hebrew word for God that is used here is ELOHIYM.

"And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jer. 31:34) According to these words, it is GOD Who has the power and right to forgive sins. However, the New Testament says that Jesus Christ has this power.

Please notice Mark 2:5-11: "When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house."

In John 10:30, Jesus says, "I and my Father are one." Isn't that clear enough?

To see Christ as man alone and not one with God is to blatantly ignore the gospels, the entire N.T, and the scholarship that supports it.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#20

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:58 pm

Every single verse that you gave does not support "the trinity theory" Lets start with the name Emmanuel. It does mean "God with us" but a name does not support the doctrine. Take the name Jonah, if we were to apply the same principle to his name, Jonah was never a human but rather a bird. Jonah means "Dove" Are we supposed to think that at the baptism of Jesus the "dove" who was the Holy Spirit was actually Jonah? Now that sounds silly to me. But by "verse grabbing" one here and one there we can come up with all sorts of goofy things "out of context"

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#21

Post by neo-x » Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:18 am

Go ahead take one by one each verse and show me your interpretation of it.

also can man forgive sin, if so how? if not then how come Christ forgives sin?

Also what about when Jesus said, "I and the father are one?"

By the way you haven't given a single persuasive argument as to how the trinity is not present in the bible. YOu are simply saying there is no trinity in scriptures, so then go ahead prove how what you are saying fits in, I'd like to see how you do that.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#22

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:41 am

John 10:30 with context from vs.25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33 The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— 36 do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; 38 but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” ... What the Father and the son do are "one in purpose" The sheep are the Fathers but the Father gave them to his son. But the best is the last bit " the Father is in me and I am in the Father" Adam and Eve are 2 people but they are "one" flesh. I see the same principle working here.

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#23

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:42 am

Scrip says somewhere that if we don't forgive others sins ours will not be forgiven

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#24

Post by neo-x » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:00 am

But the best is the last bit " the Father is in me and I am in the Father" Adam and Eve are 2 people but they are "one" flesh. I see the same principle working here.
lol...that is the trinity you just explained, Jesus and the father are two personalities but they are "one". :lol:
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#25

Post by neo-x » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:06 am

1stjohn0666 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:42 pm

Scrip says somewhere that if we don't forgive others sins ours will not be forgiven
I am sorry, this is just lame. It doesn't account for the authority to forgive sins. So again how come Christ has the authority to forgive sins?
yes we can forgive others sins but only because this is a type of sin which is done against a person and not all kinds fo sin. That doesn't mean we can forgive all sins. If we forgive sins done against us ours will be forgiven; doesn't say anything like we can forgive all others sins and the penalty thereof at our own whim, we may forgive sins done against us but we cant forgive sins done against God or other human beings. Also in this version of your explanation, what was the sin of Jesus against the sick man that the sick man forgave that Christ forgave him in return? doesn't add up.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#26

Post by Byblos » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:24 am

neo-x wrote:
1stjohn0666 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:42 pm

Scrip says somewhere that if we don't forgive others sins ours will not be forgiven
I am sorry, this is just lame. It doesn't account for the authority to forgive sins. So again how come Christ has the authority to forgive sins?
yes we can forgive others sins but only because this is a type of sin which is done against a person and not all kinds fo sin. That doesn't mean we can forgive all sins. If we forgive sins done against us ours will be forgiven; doesn't say anything like we can forgive all others sins and the penalty thereof at our own whim, we may forgive sins done against us but we cant forgive sins done against God or other human beings. Also in this version of your explanation, what was the sin of Jesus against the sick man that the sick man forgave that Christ forgave him in return? doesn't add up.
Besides which, when we forgive others the intended benefactor of the forgiving is US, not THEM. Totally different from God (or Jesus) forgiving sins.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#27

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:59 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:Scrip says somewhere that if we don't forgive others sins ours will not be forgiven
We must forgive the sins that others commit on US so that the sins we commit on others will also be forgiven.
We do NOT have the right or authority to forgive the sins of one person committed on another person.
Only God, Christ and the HS can do that.

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#28

Post by 1stjohn0666 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:56 am

I did not post any "trinity theory"... "one in purpose" is not "Jesus is God" Jesus lacks a Godly trait omniscience. Jesus is and will forever be "subject" to his Father and to his God which the Father is the "only true God" John 17:3

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Re: Answers for B.W.

#29

Post by neo-x » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:15 am

Jesus lacks a Godly trait omniscience
That is only because he emptied himself and came down to earth in human form. Didn't you read that in the Bible?...I thought you'd surely know the basic stuff.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

PaulSacramento
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Re: Answers for B.W.

#30

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:48 am

1stjohn0666 wrote:I did not post any "trinity theory"... "one in purpose" is not "Jesus is God" Jesus lacks a Godly trait omniscience. Jesus is and will forever be "subject" to his Father and to his God which the Father is the "only true God" John 17:3
None of that goes against Jesus and His Father sharing the same divine nature, you know that right?
Look at what Paul says of who Jesus is:
Colossians:
15 [w]He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For [x] by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He [y] is before all things, and in Him all things [z]hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For [aa]it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the [ab]fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in [ac]heaven.

and:
Philippians
Be Like Christ

2 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any [a] affection and compassion, 2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. 3 Do nothing [c]from [d] selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; 4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Have this attitude [e]in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be [f]grasped, 7 but [g] emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death [h]on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

And the writer of Hebrews:
God’s Final Word in His Son

1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 [a] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the [c] world. 3 [d]And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and [e] upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say,

“ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?

And again,

“ I will be a Father to Him
And He shall be a Son to Me”?

6 And [f]when He again brings the firstborn into [g] the world, He says,

“ And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

7 And of the angels He says,

“ Who makes His angels winds,
And His ministers a flame of fire.”

8 But of the Son He says,

“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,

And the righteous scepter is the scepter of [h]His kingdom.

9 “ You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;

Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You

With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”

10 And,

“ You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,

And the heavens are the works of Your hands;

11 They will perish, but You remain;

And they all will become old like a garment,

12 And like a mantle You will roll them up;

Like a garment they will also be changed.

But You are the same,

And Your years will not come to an end.”

13 But to which of the angels has He ever said,

“ Sit at My right hand,
Until I make Your enemies
A footstool for Your feet”?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?

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