lutheran changing over time???

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secretfire6
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lutheran changing over time???

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Post by secretfire6 » Fri May 11, 2012 2:36 am

I'm not sure this really belongs in abberant christianity, but i recently started a study on the Lutheran church for a friend and found some things that just don't add up to me. Most of my info comes from a modern English trasnlation of the small catechism written by Martin Luther himself. All doctrinal issues aside I've noticed some suspicious things that get me wondering if somone, somwhere has been trying to change Lutheran churches back into catholic churches. for example:

the title of the catechism's section on baptism calls it "the SACREMENT of holy baptism" and Luther's description of it does tend to make me believe he understood it as a type of magical event, but in a couple of his other writings he clearly and repeatedly calls baptism an ORDINANCE, meaning symbolic. totally the opposite of a sacrement...hmmm. then i hear of some lutheran churches practicing baptism by sprinkling and pouring the water over a person's head, yet a text from Luther himself states quite clearly that he teaches and prefers total immersion because that is the meaning of the word found in Greek scripture. very odd

then there is the whole issue of confession. in the catechism it gives examples of the convo between a confessor and the person confessing (apparently a confessor is like the pastor). In it the question is asked "do you believe my forgiveness is God's forgiveness?" and the person confessing is supposed to say "yes". Now doesn't that go against what protestantism was fighting for? They saw the Roman chrch replacing God's authority and power with regular people and knew it was wrong. so how could Luther have believed that the forgiveness of a human being is the same as god's forgiveness of sin? that doesnt make any sense to me. Then there was this little disclaimer on the modern catechism that said " this question was not in the original catechism and may not have been written by Luther, but reflects his teachings and was added during his lifetime". All i could think after reading that was "says you". Something very fishy is going on here...or maybe it's just my imagination??

Tpatt17
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Re: lutheran changing over time???

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Post by Tpatt17 » Fri May 11, 2012 10:43 am

Remember Martin Luther was a Catholic; his views were constantly changing, for example he talked about purgatory, then later denies it exists. Martin Luther never wanted his followers to be called "Lutherans". His views changed through time, he started the reformation by trying to reform some of the catholic churchs abuses. His views on Catholic teachings also began to change. I know in my church (Lutheran) that there is no act of confession, except during communion, but it is optional to confess to a pastor. I have seen a couple instances where Luther seems to contradict himself, but his views were constantly changing. About baptisim, it is hard to say whether total immersion is the right way or if sprinkling is, but if the original greek says immersion, as Baptists use, it would seem to be the general way of doing it. I believe that the amount of water doesn't matter, it's the act itself of being baptized. I have read Luther's confession, but I always believe that you confess yourself to God. I know that I have looked at Lutheranisim and, compared to the catholic faith, and then compared to the rest (methodist, Baptist etc.), and there are many differences, even church to church.

secretfire6
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Re: lutheran changing over time???

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Post by secretfire6 » Fri May 11, 2012 12:45 pm

hi Tpatt :)
I see. that does make more sense as I know Luther was brought up Catholic, everyone pretty much was at that time, and he was trying to reform a church that had been stuck in its ways for nearly 13 centuries. The reason i did this little study was because the friend i mentioned was totally adamant the Lutherans were "nothing like Catholics" and she was also trying to defend the practice of baptising babies and young children. I told her i'd look into it and tell her what i found. I dont think she was too happy with what I came up with since she hasnt replied yet. I should also add that there was no bias in my study. I've never been into a Lutheran church or studied their doctrine before this nor do i have anything against them. I myself do not belong to any religious institution.
I agree that the amount of water or even having water at all isn't the key to salvation or recieving holy spirit. If it was then the story of the promise of entry into paradise from Jesus to the thief upon his crucifiction could not have happened. There are several types of churches out here that believe you have to have water to be saved and/or recieve the spirit and when i prove it to them otherwise, even though i mean no harm, they usually just get mad.
I totally know what you mean about all the differences in the churches even down to congregations from the same institution. So far ive done studies on mormons, the watchtower society, Catholic (some) pentecostal, apostolic, assembly of God, baptist (a little) and now Lutheran (a little). it gets very hard to define what a christian is after looking into all that.

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Re: lutheran changing over time???

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Post by Tpatt17 » Fri May 11, 2012 6:03 pm

Luther was a doctor, I forget of what, but he was brought up Catholic, and began to search the scriptures and found out that many of the Catholic practices going on then didn't come from Scripture. Lutherans are actually somewhat like Catholics, I have a Catholic friend, and I tell him about what we do, and he tells me what they do, some of it sounds similar but there are still many differences. For example, As a Lutheran I believe in Communion, some congregations, or deniominations don't take it literally, but still Catholics and Lutherans differ on that also. Luther was excommunicated from the Catholic Church. There is actually a good movie about him, its pretty old though. Lutheranisim is interesting when you begin to study it. My family has been Lutherans for about 200+ years, (they came from Germany) where Luther was from.

secretfire6
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Re: lutheran changing over time???

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Post by secretfire6 » Tue May 15, 2012 2:28 am

Wow. I wonder how many practicing Lutherans acctually know all that kind of information. It really helps put things into perspective. I've read some of his letters where he's really upset at the local church leaders because he's talked to members of the church who have gone their whole lives and who dont know some of the most basic things about being Christian. I'm sure there are people like that today too though

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