Women in Church?

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Women in Church?

#1

Post by Short1 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:59 am

Hi everyone, I'm reading a bunch of stuff about various false teachings happening in churches all over. (Inspired by the word faith thread.) It is ridiculously confusing because one webpage might be making good assertions on one topic, but then not so good ones on another. I feel like I can't trust any source. Besides that, I don't know very much!

Finding true doctrine is confusing and frustrating.. but then I realized something. That's Satan's goal! To undermine us subtly from the inside. I think I need to just pray and continue searching.

Something I'm curious about that can probably be easily answered is the role of women in church/society. 1 Timothy 2:11 talks about submission of women and goes on to say that Eve was the one deceived. Is this verse only applying to the Ephesian women? Should women be preachers anywhere? I'm sure there are other verses and other sides to things and I figure this is a well known topic.

Thanks!

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Re: Women in Church?

#2

Post by Canuckster1127 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:28 am

Welcome to the quagmire! :ewink:

It's a highly controversial subject. More conservative, traditional christians tend to accept these admonition as outside the culture of that day and direct commands by God. Some churches go so far as to adopt the practice of headcoverings and no makeup.

Others take it as a fully cultural stricture that translates into a different understanding for today.

I haven't read this book yet, but I respect the author a great deal. I'd suggest it if you're interested. I'm sure others can as well. Zen comes more from seeing things in a cultural context.

It's called "What's With Paul and Women" and it primarily addresses the passage you're refering to.

http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Paul-Women- ... 0976522292
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Re: Women in Church?

#3

Post by CallMeDave » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:09 am

Short1 wrote:Hi everyone, I'm reading a bunch of stuff about various false teachings happening in churches all over. (Inspired by the word faith thread.) It is ridiculously confusing because one webpage might be making good assertions on one topic, but then not so good ones on another. I feel like I can't trust any source. Besides that, I don't know very much!

Finding true doctrine is confusing and frustrating.. but then I realized something. That's Satan's goal! To undermine us subtly from the inside. I think I need to just pray and continue searching.

Something I'm curious about that can probably be easily answered is the role of women in church/society. 1 Timothy 2:11 talks about submission of women and goes on to say that Eve was the one deceived. Is this verse only applying to the Ephesian women? Should women be preachers anywhere? I'm sure there are other verses and other sides to things and I figure this is a well known topic.

Thanks!

I have spent a bit of time considering this issue of women serving in the local church body, and, i conclude that there are places for women to actively serve but not as a leading Pastor . I believe women are very capable of contributing much to the church body in various capacities and Jesus himself certainly considered women a vital part of his ministry and in fact they were the first ones to see Jesus ressurected .

How i gain greater insight on understanding scripture, is to apply basic constructs of hermanuetics / gather all the scriptures on a particular topic together for review / read scholarly commentaries on each passage / see what points are being made online regarding the particular issue with accompanying verses / turn to scholarly books on the matter / and incorporating personal prayer.
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Re: Women in Church?

#4

Post by Ivellious » Mon Mar 19, 2012 8:30 am

Monotheistic religions have long had a negative relationship with any sort of feminist ideals, and women have long been considered second-class citizens by Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. It's incredibly complicated, and as noted previously, churches and denominations of Christianity vary greatly in how closely they hold to sexist traditions.

I know that calling it sexism might sound too harsh, but I disagree. When women are held down and not allowed to reach certain levels, it is sexism. The Bible does have many examples of sexism, not just in commands and so on, but in the roles women have compared to men. For instance, when Adam and Eve ate from the tree, Eve ate first and Adam afterward. The Bible clearly states that only Adam's sin was what condemned humanity...Which would seem to say that Eve (and women in general) was not as valuable in the grand scheme of things, or if nothing else that Adam was superior.

My friend's Catholic church explained it as saying that because Eve "couldn't have known better, but Adam certainly should have", that was why his sin was the Original Sin. That bothers me, because that is clearly saying that men are morally and mentally superior to women. Of course, Catholicism has a somewhat nasty relationship as far as women are concerned. My mother left Catholicism (though is still very Christian) after when she was a little girl her priest mocked her when she asked to be an altar boy, and later told the entire congregation about her "transgression" and how it was an example of how parents need to teach their daughters to stay in their place.

I can't really determine what is correct or what the authors of the Bible had in mind, though judging by the attitude toward women in the Middle East at the time, I imagine it would have been natural for them to casually expect subservience from women, and have them stay away from church positions. It is an extremely recent phenomena where women are being given equality in Christianity, to be honest.

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Re: Women in Church?

#5

Post by RickD » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:21 am

I agree with others here that say women do have a role in churches. Most churches do have a kitchen, don't they? :wave: :pound:
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Re: Women in Church?

#6

Post by CallMeDave » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:27 am

Ivellious wrote:Monotheistic religions have long had a negative relationship with any sort of feminist ideals, and women have long been considered second-class citizens by Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. It's incredibly complicated, and as noted previously, churches and denominations of Christianity vary greatly in how closely they hold to sexist traditions.

I know that calling it sexism might sound too harsh, but I disagree. When women are held down and not allowed to reach certain levels, it is sexism. The Bible does have many examples of sexism, not just in commands and so on, but in the roles women have compared to men. For instance, when Adam and Eve ate from the tree, Eve ate first and Adam afterward. The Bible clearly states that only Adam's sin was what condemned humanity...Which would seem to say that Eve (and women in general) was not as valuable in the grand scheme of things, or if nothing else that Adam was superior.

My friend's Catholic church explained it as saying that because Eve "couldn't have known better, but Adam certainly should have", that was why his sin was the Original Sin. That bothers me, because that is clearly saying that men are morally and mentally superior to women. Of course, Catholicism has a somewhat nasty relationship as far as women are concerned. My mother left Catholicism (though is still very Christian) after when she was a little girl her priest mocked her when she asked to be an altar boy, and later told the entire congregation about her "transgression" and how it was an example of how parents need to teach their daughters to stay in their place.

I can't really determine what is correct or what the authors of the Bible had in mind, though judging by the attitude toward women in the Middle East at the time, I imagine it would have been natural for them to casually expect subservience from women, and have them stay away from church positions. It is an extremely recent phenomena where women are being given equality in Christianity, to be honest.
The culture of Jesus' day viewed women as second class citizens...but, Jesus (and thus The Christian Faith) gave equality to women and restored their worth and dignity if you read the New Testament and how Jesus treated women in general and his female followers. So please, be careful about making generalized statements about 'women being looked down upon by Christianity' because that is a misconception.

Re: The Fall...Eve was decieved but Adam was duped by Eve .
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Re: Women in Church?

#7

Post by CallMeDave » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:29 am

RickD wrote:I agree with others here that say women do have a role in churches. Most churches do have a kitchen, don't they? :wave: :pound:
Now, THAT is a sexist statement . Many women in our churches are good at teaching roles beyond the kitchen .
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Re: Women in Church?

#8

Post by Byblos » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:30 am

CallMeDave wrote:
RickD wrote:I agree with others here that say women do have a role in churches. Most churches do have a kitchen, don't they? :wave: :pound:
Now, THAT is a sexist statement . Many women in our churches are good at teaching roles beyond the kitchen .
You're right, they can teach cooking classes.
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Re: Women in Church?

#9

Post by Ivellious » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:45 am

CallMeDave, I don't know your point about the fall. I get that Eve was deceived but it was not her act that condemned humanity. Only Adam's sin "counted" in the long run, so to speak.

You are right, Jesus did not discriminate, but every denomination of Christianity and numerous parts of the Bible itself do subjugate women to a lesser role, and the institution of Christianity has carried that role for 2000 years now. Even you saying that women shouldn't be allowed to be a church leader is kind of strange to me...What is the rationale? You say that the sexism in the Bible is a product of the times and culture of 2000 years ago, but it's ok to say that women shouldn't be allowed to be preachers even when that culture should have died out years ago?

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Re: Women in Church?

#10

Post by RickD » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:56 am

Byblos wrote:
CallMeDave wrote:
RickD wrote:I agree with others here that say women do have a role in churches. Most churches do have a kitchen, don't they? :wave: :pound:
Now, THAT is a sexist statement . Many women in our churches are good at teaching roles beyond the kitchen .
You're right, they can teach cooking classes.
Yes Dave you are right. That was a sexist statement, and I apologize. As far as teaching roles beyond the kitchen, as you mentioned, how about laundry classes? :esurprised:
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Re: Women in Church?

#11

Post by Dallas » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:59 am

I'm only against women preaching. Other than that, I don't care what they do.
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Re: Women in Church?

#12

Post by Ivellious » Mon Mar 19, 2012 10:02 am

But like I said before...Dallas, WHY is the idea of women preaching so bad?

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Re: Women in Church?

#13

Post by neo-x » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:31 pm

Women preaching has nothing to do with any spiritual criteria set by God. They can and are able, just like men, not by their own understanding, their power or rationale but because of the spirit of God that resides in all of his children. There is none superior, for all are one in Christ, by the spirit. So I ask to those who do not think that women should preach. Are you not overlooking the work of Christ, done for all? A preacher can only be true if he has the spirit of Christ. And if that is to be the measuring stick then what does the sex of one human has to do with anything? Feel free to pour your thoughts on this.

If I may, I think you are practising the same bias the early jews had against gentiles. "How can the Lord pour his spirit on gentiles". Just because they were not born out of the house of Israel; and it was in that very context Paul wrote to Romans "For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

Paul's commended co-worker, Priscilla, taught Apollos, the great preacher (Acts 18:24-26). In addition, Paul frequently mentioned other women who held positions of authority in the church. Phoebe worked in the church (Romans 16:1). Mary, Tryphena, and Tryphosa were the Lord's workers (Romans 16:6, 12).8 Paul was very likely prohibiting the Ephesian women, not all women, from teaching.

Woman and man were created for full and equal partnership. The word "helper" (ezer) used to designate woman in Genesis 2:18 refers to God in most instances of Old Testament usage (e.g. I Sam 7:12; Ps 121:1-2). Consequently the word conveys no implication whatsoever of female subordination or inferiority.

Consider these

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 3:26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus... notice this is addressed to a group, a church, having male and female members.

Imagine the hard core Jew, which is Paul. A scholar of the Jewish Law and devoted practitioner of his culture, who knows and lives in a legalistic, sexist culture, came to write such equality about the sexes, for if he was in error, he clearly would have seen the contradiction he was creating with two different thoughts about equality of the sexes and the danger of creating discord about such contradictory teaching. Unless he meant what he said in Gal 3:28 to be consistent through out his message in Ephesians, there is no other way to see it.

When Paul wrote Galatians, he didn't have the copy of the New testament. He only had the Old testament, but because he knew Christ personally, he wrote what was almost radical to the Jewish culture, that men and women, slave and master, Jew and Greek were all equal in Christ. Imagine, had he gone by the "proof texting" he would have written the complete opposite, but no. Instead he saw the whole spirit of the work of Christ and then wrote his message. He let God mold his understanding and guide him through his love and nature and not through words alone, written on the paper. It must have been a huge dent in his own understanding of the scriptures because he had seen and lived as the exact opposite. But I believe he got convinced that such an equality in Christ, does exist, and that as soon as the church adopts it, the better.

It is certainly hard to follow the second greatest commandment "Love your neighbor as yourself", if you dont actually see women equal. It can not be done and it can not be reconciled with the message of the Cross and I think, Paul realized it or else he could not have written this and not know what he was saying. That would make no sense.
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Re: Women in Church?

#14

Post by RickD » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:41 pm

Neo wrote:
It is certainly hard to follow the second greatest commandment "Love your neighbor as yourself", if you dont actually see women equal. It can not be done and it can not be reconciled with the message of the Cross and I think, Paul realized it or else he could not have written this and not know what he was saying. That would make no sense.
Neo, just two questions for you.
1) Was Jesus ever submissive to the Father?

And

2)if yes, then does that mean Jesus is not equal to the Father?

I'm just asking, because I really am not leaning one way or the other with this issue.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

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Re: Women in Church?

#15

Post by neo-x » Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:45 pm

The question is not about being submissive rick, in that sense, should we all be submissive to each other as some scriptures point out, but then does it mean we are not equal? It is what the spirit of God allows us to do or not. Banning someone from preaching should be done on spiritual merit. Not their physical characteristics which has nothing to do with the spirit of God and the work of Christ.
It would be a blessing if they missed the cairns and got lost on the way back. Or if
the Thing on the ice got them tonight.

I could only turn and stare in horror at the chief surgeon.
Death by starvation is a terrible thing, Goodsir, continued Stanley.
And with that we went below to the flame-flickering Darkness of the lower deck
and to a cold almost the equal of the Dante-esque Ninth Circle Arctic Night
without.


//johnadavid.wordpress.com

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