What needs to be done in order to be saved

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
User avatar
Furstentum Liechtenstein
Ultimate Member
Posts: 3295
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 6:55 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: It's Complicated
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Lower Canuckistan
Has liked: 110 times
Been liked: 34 times

Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#46

Post by Furstentum Liechtenstein » Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:28 pm

Conclusion of this topic:

We do not acquire salvation because of our saintly acts, but because we are constituted saints by God we will manifest saintliness.

OK?

FL
Hold everything lightly. If you don't, it will hurt when God pries your fingers loose as He takes it from you. -Corrie Ten Boom

+ + +

If they had a social gospel in the days of the prodigal son, somebody would have given him a bed and a sandwich and he never would have gone home.

+ + +

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#47

Post by B. W. » Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:26 pm

Great post bart!

Preach it Brother :esmile:

One last thing we all seem to be missing as evidence - a real honest Love for God which develops within us that changes our very life... not a zeal for good legel works disguised as love - but something that only God knows, others may sense, but God knows.

In my opinion, many have become so anti-works oriented, and so hostile towards becoming his workmanship, that they should apply the same ideas into their marriage. Treat your spouse with that same anti-works zeal and see what happens.

I love my wife, I do things around the house for her, for her, because I like too. I like too because of my love for her. I may give her a surprise gift or a silly note taped her favorite bag of bagels in the fridge, etc,. This is a high form of human love that gives birth to agape's nurture, cherishing, fostering, edifying nature.

Why can't we love God in similar scope? Why are such acts considered wrong - legalism? When in fact, they are liberating, producing life. You can't fake this with legalism - it will crush a person but love welling up in the human heart for God does indeed produce good works, why, because of love...

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all of thy heart, might, and soul - and love thy neighbor as thyself - Jesus said somewhere - why are we so afraid to love God?

So to answer FL - we are constituted saints by God so soon we will manifest saintliness because He first Loved us...
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

User avatar
Gman
Old School
Posts: 6081
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 10:36 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Northern California
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#48

Post by Gman » Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:21 pm

Canuckster1127 wrote:How do you see God?

Is God the loving Father that Jesus illustrated in his parable of the Prodigal Son who stands ready to run to you, arms extended to receive you when you want to return? Or is God like to ancient God Zeus (and I choose that image very deliberately) who sits upon the mountain waiting for you to trip up so you can serve as the target for his lightening bolt practice? The reality is that we all view God somewhere in between those two extremes, but Jesus appears to be telling us, and showing us by His sacrificial love, that God really IS that loving father who wants the type of relationship with us that is illustrated by that second child in the family I described.

All of these elements and illustrations are not unique with me or new. They are very Biblical. Knowing about them (head knowledge) and living them (heart knowledge) are very different things. The Pharisees had one and lacked the other. Jesus took them to task for it because they not only lived in that manner for themselves but they took others with them who trusted their leading.

I spent 20 years in formal ministry thinking I really understood this. The last 5 years outside of that are showing me I have very little real idea of what I talked about back then and I've been that first child who really just lives like a servant in the home, performing and outside the relationship of those parents who desire it so much, but my own misperceptions blind me to living in what is right there for me.

Anyway, sorry for the sermon but that's been rising up in me and I felt the need to get it out.

blessings,

bart
Nice post Bart..

And notice that the father RAN to the Prodigal Son after he saw him coming from a distance and hugged him even before the son could get all his words out.. Luke 15:20 Ultimately I believe we serve a God of ultimate LOVE. It's not about knowledge, it's not about things, it's all about a God of love.. If this weren't true or not part of the Bible, I wouldn't be here...

It's God's GOODNESS that lead us to repentance.. Romans 2:4
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

Different_Name
Familiar Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:07 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#49

Post by Different_Name » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:48 pm

And one of the hanged criminals blasphemed Him, saying, If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.

But answering, the other rebuked him, saying, Do you not fear God, for you are in the same judgment?

And we indeed justly, for we receive things worthy of what we did. But this One did nothing wrong.

And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when You come in Your kingdom.

And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise.
The criminal on the cross is one distinct example of someone being assured of heaven after death. The first criminal said "If" Jesus is Christ, to save them. He was interested in only his own life. However, as mentioned elsewhere, you need to be born again to be saved. I think it could be compared to Pascal's wager, where you say, I don't wanna go to hell, so I'm going to wager that there's a God.

The second criminal said a few things:
1. He rebuked the other criminal.
2. He admitted he was a sinner and deserved death.
3. He called Jesus Lord. (in the King James Version and translations based on the Majority Text but not in those based on the Nestle-Aland Text)
4. He acknowledged that Jesus had a kingdom out of this world.
5. He asked Jesus to remember him.

Now obviously, those are just exterior things that he did, and it is what was on his heart that truly mattered and caused Jesus to assure him heaven. But the Bible is an inspired text, so those words could very well be inspiredly in the correct direction toward salvation. Though I don't ever recall hearing a sermon on this.

Apparently, that is a way toward salvation. Though this is one blatant difference I find between Bible versions, whether acknowledgment of Jesus' Lordship (presumably divinity) is necessary for salvation.

User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8365
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado
Has liked: 102 times
Been liked: 260 times

Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#50

Post by B. W. » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:42 pm

Different_Name wrote:
And one of the hanged criminals blasphemed Him, saying, If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us. But answering, the other rebuked him, saying, Do you not fear God, for you are in the same judgment?And we indeed justly, for we receive things worthy of what we did. But this One did nothing wrong. And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when You come in Your kingdom. And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you will be with Me in Paradise.
The criminal on the cross is one distinct example of someone being assured of heaven after death. The first criminal said "If" Jesus is Christ, to save them. He was interested in only his own life. However, as mentioned elsewhere, you need to be born again to be saved. I think it could be compared to Pascal's wager, where you say, I don't wanna go to hell, so I'm going to wager that there's a God.

The second criminal said a few things:

1. He rebuked the other criminal.
2. He admitted he was a sinner and deserved death.
3. He called Jesus Lord. (in the King James Version and translations based on the Majority Text but not in those based on the Nestle-Aland Text)
4. He acknowledged that Jesus had a kingdom out of this world.
5. He asked Jesus to remember him.

Now obviously, those are just exterior things that he did, and it is what was on his heart that truly mattered and caused Jesus to assure him heaven. But the Bible is an inspired text, so those words could very well be inspiredly in the correct direction toward salvation. Though I don't ever recall hearing a sermon on this.

Apparently, that is a way toward salvation. Though this is one blatant difference I find between Bible versions, whether acknowledgment of Jesus' Lordship (presumably divinity) is necessary for salvation.
Very good presentation and well thought out. Do you recall the reason the Nestle-Aland Text Translated 'Jesus' instead of 'Lord' (i.e. Kurios)?

Next, would not crying out 'Jesus' as recorded in Luke 23:42 in the NA also be used a an acknowledgment of the supremacy of Christ in like manner that Kurios (Lord) implies?

Intesting, points...
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

Different_Name
Familiar Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:07 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#51

Post by Different_Name » Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:20 pm

Do you recall the reason the Nestle-Aland Text Translated 'Jesus' instead of 'Lord' (i.e. Kurios)?
The Nestle-Aland Text is based on different manuscripts than the Majority Text or the text on which the King James Bible was based. Its manuscripts are technically older, but that does not necessarily mean that they are more accurate. Apparently, these manuscripts did not contain the word for Lord in that passage like the great majority of manuscripts that came from Byzantine.

There's two possible reasons for this: Either someone removed the word "Lord" in Nestle-Aland's manuscripts (either accidentally or intentionally) OR someone added the word "Lord" to the scriptures and when the Byzantines mass-produced them, this addition was also mass-produced.
Next, would not crying out 'Jesus' as recorded in Luke 23:42 in the NA also be used a an acknowledgment of the supremacy of Christ in like manner that Kurios (Lord) implies?
Possibly, or it could just be because the criminal wanted Jesus to know that he was now talking to Him and not the other criminal. It's not very specific.

User avatar
Canuckster1127
Old School
Posts: 5308
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Tulsa, OK
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#52

Post by Canuckster1127 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:51 am

The Nestle-Aland Text is based on different manuscripts than the Majority Text or the text on which the King James Bible was based. Its manuscripts are technically older, but that does not necessarily mean that they are more accurate.
But more accurate is the more likely conclusion to draw. Vaticanicus and Sinaiticus are the particular (if my memory serves) manuscripts that are older and provide a foundation to several traditions of tied manuscript families. I think you'd need to demonstrate a reason why the newer manuscripts of the textus receptus were to be prefered over the older, that is very specific as the older traditions would normally be deemed the more reliable as closer to the source.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

//bartsbarometer.com/

User avatar
Canuckster1127
Old School
Posts: 5308
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Tulsa, OK
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#53

Post by Canuckster1127 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:51 am

The Nestle-Aland Text is based on different manuscripts than the Majority Text or the text on which the King James Bible was based. Its manuscripts are technically older, but that does not necessarily mean that they are more accurate.
But more accurate is the more likely conclusion to draw. Vaticanicus and Sinaiticus are the particular (if my memory serves) manuscripts that are older and provide a foundation to several traditions of tied manuscript families. I think you'd need to demonstrate a reason why the newer manuscripts of the textus receptus were to be prefered over the older, that is very specific as the older traditions would normally be deemed the more reliable as closer to the source.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

//bartsbarometer.com/

Different_Name
Familiar Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:07 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#54

Post by Different_Name » Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:15 am

It is possible that the reason we have so few copies of these more ancient manuscripts is because they were known to be not as reliable and were not duplicated as much. It is also possible that the reason this particular copy of these older manuscripts apparently lasted the longest is because it was not used as much as other more reliable manuscripts so it was not worn out as quickly. Of course, this is just speculation, which is why I normally look at translations based on both text-types when looking up something in the New Testament.

User avatar
Canuckster1127
Old School
Posts: 5308
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 11:31 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Tulsa, OK
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#55

Post by Canuckster1127 » Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:25 am

Different_Name wrote:It is possible that the reason we have so few copies of these more ancient manuscripts is because they were known to be not as reliable and were not duplicated as much. It is also possible that the reason this particular copy of these older manuscripts apparently lasted the longest is because it was not used as much as other more reliable manuscripts so it was not worn out as quickly. Of course, this is just speculation, which is why I normally look at translations based on both text-types when looking up something in the New Testament.
Those are possibilities. More likely it has to do with the geographic location, accessibility and control of the documents. Textual criticism and the type of assessment you're suggesting wasn't on the scene until well after many of these manuscripts "disappeared" (or were limited in circulation and exposure for various reasons).

I agree though that you look at everything you have when you go to the NT and especially with those passages that are less than A in the reliability assessments within the UBS or Nestle, greek texts you look at what texts are involved and try to understand where the variants are and why they might be present.

There's not really that many issues that have any real impact on meaning and interpretation between the best manuscripts we have today and the Textus Receptus. I actually have an old Textus Receptus interlinear from the 1800s that I go to every now and then to compare with my UBS texts. Rarely do I find much difference and when I do, it's usually negligible.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

//bartsbarometer.com/

Different_Name
Familiar Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:07 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#56

Post by Different_Name » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:38 pm

There's not really that many issues that have any real impact on meaning and interpretation between the best manuscripts we have today and the Textus Receptus. I actually have an old Textus Receptus interlinear from the 1800s that I go to every now and then to compare with my UBS texts. Rarely do I find much difference and when I do, it's usually negligible.
Yes, that is what I have noticed usually as well. This is the first time I have noticed a somewhat important difference, when I was analyzing what the criminal said to Jesus before Jesus assured him Paradise. Of course, the Critical Text still has the criminal verbally acknowledge Jesus' kingdom and the sinlessness of Jesus. But whether or not the criminal "confessed with [his] mouth the Lord Jesus" seems a rather significant difference.

Different_Name
Familiar Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jun 24, 2010 11:07 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#57

Post by Different_Name » Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:00 pm

Today I was finishing reading the gospel according to John and in the 20th chapter, I found a verse that echoed what John wrote about in 1 John 5.
John 20:31 wrote:But these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
Believing that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God.

And since this is in the same book that contains John 3:16, do you think this might imply that this is an expansion of what "whosoever" must "believe in him" about? Of course, now that I think about it, this verse is referring specifically about what one should believe about the human person of Jesus, while John 3:16 is referring to believing IN the "Son of God" that transcends time which makes me think they are talking about different things.

User avatar
Kristoffer
Valued Member
Posts: 423
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 3:24 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Theistic Evolution
Location: A quaint village.
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#58

Post by Kristoffer » Sat Aug 14, 2010 10:32 pm

Different_Name wrote: I think it could be compared to Pascal's wager, where you say, I don't wanna go to hell, so I'm going to wager that there's a God.
Exactly, the wager is only a good argument for feigning belief. It is basically very poor and should not be used. which is why I am very dismissive when I hear it.

User avatar
zoegirl
Old School
Posts: 3927
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:59 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: east coast
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#59

Post by zoegirl » Sun Aug 15, 2010 7:28 pm

you, dismissive?...nah, really? :ewink:
"And we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Jesus Christ"

TallMan
Established Member
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:47 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Location: Near London, UK, but I travel
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#60

Post by TallMan » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:47 pm

People assume that "paradise" means heaven, and therefore the thief was sincere in his comments. Matthew and Mark's account of this dialogue both say that both of the thieves were speaking mockingly to Jesus immediately before the darkness - the same time of the dialogue reported by Luke:-

“THE THIEVES also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. Now from the sixth hour there was darkness . .. ” (Matthew 27:43-45)

“THEY that were crucified with him REVILED him. And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.”
(Mark 15:32-33)


. . . did they both miss the point that one thief repented and had a great revelation of Jesus coming with a kingdom?

Meanwhile his own disciples were in sorrow and fear, they obviously didn't understand, so, are we to believe that this thief had a greater revelation of Jesus than all of them, including John, the disciple whom Jesus loved?

Or is it more reasonable to say that the thief was speaking mockingly when he said:-
"Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom"

If the thief was sincere, this would have been a comfort to Jesus at this time when he represtented man's sin (for which there can be no comfort).
But what of the prophesy:-
"Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was NONE; and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink." (Psalm 69:20-21) ?

Why does Jesus say "today you shall be with me in paradise" not just "you shall be with me in paradise"?

No man enters into heaven until Jesus returns!

"no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13)

"in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his comin" (1 Cor. 15:22-23)


The word "paradise" is used figuratively for heaven elsewhere, but literally it means GARDEN, WHERE JESUS WAS BURIED THAT DAY; Mary later thought he was the gardener (John 19v41, 20v15). This would mean Jesus was saying that the thief would be buried also in the tombs in the garden.

But, EVEN IF one thief was sincere it's a red herring for people today since God is now dealing under the New Covenant. People are being taught to reject the need for water & Spirit baptisms because of what Jesus says to a thief in Luke - sounds like a thief's gospel to me!

Post Reply