What needs to be done in order to be saved

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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BavarianWheels
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Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#61

Post by BavarianWheels » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:16 pm

TallMan wrote:People assume that "paradise" means heaven, and therefore the thief was sincere in his comments. Matthew and Mark's account of this dialogue both say that both of the thieves were speaking mockingly to Jesus immediately before the darkness - the same time of the dialogue reported by Luke:-

“THE THIEVES also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth. Now from the sixth hour there was darkness . .. ” (Matthew 27:43-45)

“THEY that were crucified with him REVILED him. And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.”
(Mark 15:32-33)


. . . did they both miss the point that one thief repented and had a great revelation of Jesus coming with a kingdom?

Meanwhile his own disciples were in sorrow and fear, they obviously didn't understand, so, are we to believe that this thief had a greater revelation of Jesus than all of them, including John, the disciple whom Jesus loved?

Or is it more reasonable to say that the thief was speaking mockingly when he said:-
"Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom"

If the thief was sincere, this would have been a comfort to Jesus at this time when he represtented man's sin (for which there can be no comfort).
But what of the prophesy:-
"Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was NONE; and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink." (Psalm 69:20-21) ?

Why does Jesus say "today you shall be with me in paradise" not just "you shall be with me in paradise"?

No man enters into heaven until Jesus returns!

"no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" (John 3:13)

"in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his comin" (1 Cor. 15:22-23)


The word "paradise" is used figuratively for heaven elsewhere, but literally it means GARDEN, WHERE JESUS WAS BURIED THAT DAY; Mary later thought he was the gardener (John 19v41, 20v15). This would mean Jesus was saying that the thief would be buried also in the tombs in the garden.

But, EVEN IF one thief was sincere it's a red herring for people today since God is now dealing under the New Covenant. People are being taught to reject the need for water & Spirit baptisms because of what Jesus says to a thief in Luke - sounds like a thief's gospel to me!
There are no commas in the original text. The translators of the English Bible(s) have inserted their own idea and so we have:
Luke 23:43 NIV wrote:Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Commas can play a huge part in meaning and context of sentences. For example, the above seems to indicate that Jesus is saying, "this very same day"...however if the comma is moved:
Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."
This takes on a whole new meaning, with which I tend to hold more to in light of on rising from the dead, Jesus says to Mary in John 20:17
John 20:17 NIV wrote:Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father.
Now, even if Jesus did say/mean "today" as that very same day, in believing as Jesus did that death was a sleep with an awakening at "the last trump" where the dead would be raised, it still fits in with this thinking. If one dies today, the very next thought in the mind is Christ's call at the second coming. Much like once one falls asleep, there is no consciousness of time passing until the eyes open again being awakened from sleep.

The other point that suggests the latter interpretation of it being a truth told to the thief THAT day, is that crucifixion was meant to take days...the legs of the thiefs were broken as they were taken off the cross in order to "keep" the Sabbath, so the thief didn't even die THAT day.
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Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#62

Post by sinnerbybirth » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:43 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:the legs of the thiefs were broken as they were taken off the cross in order to "keep" the Sabbath, so the thief didn't even die THAT day.
y:-/ Hey Bav, I didn't know this. Why were the thiefs legs broken as they were taken off the cross? Also, how is it that they didn't die that day?
Just curious Brother :)

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Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#63

Post by B. W. » Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:07 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:...The other point that suggests the latter interpretation of it being a truth told to the thief THAT day, is that crucifixion was meant to take days...the legs of the thiefs were broken as they were taken off the cross in order to "keep" the Sabbath, so the thief didn't even die THAT day.
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FYI - the legs were broken to cause them to die on the cross that day. With legs broken, they could not lift themselves up to breath and thus they suufocate. A casual search on the internet would clarify this.

Both people on either side ofJesus were condemned to die - that day. It was against the Law to have someone hang on a tree - cross - on the sabbath day.

So it was that day that both thieves die.

Also the comma issue is not an issue in the text at all... :wave:
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Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#64

Post by B. W. » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:07 pm

Here is a rendering from the Greek text of Luke 23:43: “And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." NKJV

A more literal rendering of the Greek would read (Strong’s numbering system numbers follows the words for your reference):

Luke 23:43 - και 2532 ειπεν 3004 αυτω 846 ο 3588 ιησους 2424 αμην 281 λεγω 3004 σοι 4771 σημερον 4594 μετ 3326 εμου 1473 εση 1510 εν 1722 τω 3588 παραδεισω 3857

Luke 23:43 - And 2532 Jesus 2424 said 2036 unto him, 846 Verily 281 I say 3004 unto thee, 4671 To day 4594 shalt thou be 2071 with 3326 me 1700 in 1722 paradise. 3857 KJV

A literal rendering of the Greek word order would read in English like this (also check the word meanings of Greek words for yourself and use in grammar):

--And speaking to him, nearby (ho) Jesus - Absolutely true speaking to him today accompanying (μετ - met) me you’ll exist in the paradise

A literal translation to fit English would read something like this:

--And dialoging next to him Jesus spoke Absolutely true today accompanying (μετ -met) me you’ll exist in the paradise

The coma argument really does not have too much clout…

Note NKJV even without comas:

--And Jesus said to him Assuredly I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise.
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Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#65

Post by BavarianWheels » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:37 am

sinnerbybirth wrote:
BavarianWheels wrote:the legs of the thiefs were broken as they were taken off the cross in order to "keep" the Sabbath, so the thief didn't even die THAT day.
y:-/ Hey Bav, I didn't know this. Why were the thiefs legs broken as they were taken off the cross? Also, how is it that they didn't die that day?
Just curious Brother :)
I think B.W. pointed out that my interpretation of this specifically is off, considering the online explanations. However this still leaves the question about Jesus having gone to paradise that day. So either Christ was affirming the thief's salvation as being on that very day, or they would meet in paradise that day. Might there be a third or other interpretion of those words? Before "jumping" to conclusions on the matter (of which I already have a belief on this), I will ask for clarification on Christ's words to Mary. Not only those words, but on the assumption that at His death, Christ was "ministering to the saints".

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Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#66

Post by sinnerbybirth » Wed Sep 01, 2010 11:20 am

BavarianWheels wrote: I think B.W. pointed out that my interpretation of this specifically is off, considering the online explanations. However this still leaves the question about Jesus having gone to paradise that day. So either Christ was affirming the thief's salvation as being on that very day, or they would meet in paradise that day. Might there be a third or other interpretion of those words? Before "jumping" to conclusions on the matter (of which I already have a belief on this), I will ask for clarification on Christ's words to Mary. Not only those words, but on the assumption that at His death, Christ was "ministering to the saints".
This is/was always the way I understood it. The legs of the thieves were broken to induce suffocation. I'm still compelled to hear your explaination of it as this is a subject that interest me. y:-? With regards to paradise.....well, what is paradise? I have read MANY interpretations reguarding this. All seem to give scripture to back up their opinions of paradise. I'm just a blind squirrel looking for a nut i guess. :)

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Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#67

Post by B. W. » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:05 pm

sinnerbybirth wrote:This is/was always the way I understood it. The legs of the thieves were broken to induce suffocation. I'm still compelled to hear your explaination of it as this is a subject that interest me. y:-? With regards to paradise.....well, what is paradise? I have read MANY interpretations reguarding this. All seem to give scripture to back up their opinions of paradise. I'm just a blind squirrel looking for a nut i guess. :)


Here is a link that explains why the legs were broken - it is at the end of the article

http://www.ghaone.org/crucifix.htm
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Re: What needs to be done in order to be saved

#68

Post by ryeguy123 » Fri Oct 01, 2010 2:53 am

except jesus repent

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