Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#31

Post by Gman » Fri May 28, 2010 8:54 am

Obiwan wrote:Anyway my above link on the Trinity by the non LDS Christian i noticed was not read with a response to its contents or any analysis.:sleep: Anyway I hope the above referenced site will actualy be read. May Grace br with you all.
Obi, I have responded to your accusation.. I said that your links are simply accusations, it' not really based on anything Biblical.

As an example.. One of the links state, "Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it. . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity." So the belief here is that the Trinity came from the beliefs of the Egyptians. This is simply an accusation. My question to you is where in the Bible does it negate the Trinity? And if you would be so polite to answer my questions too. You stated earlier that the Mormons don't fully reject the Trinity. So my question is, what is the correct interpretation of the Trinity? The Bible tells us that God is in Three persons. Just one God. Why is this not the correct interpretation of the Bible? and.. What is the correct interpretation of the Trinity in the Bible or according to Mormons?

Please no more accusations.. Anyone can make accusations.. Show me Biblically.. Thanks.
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#32

Post by Obiwan » Fri May 28, 2010 9:45 am

Gman you would have done well at the Council of Nicea however showing prooftext and putting a meaning of the western trinity to them would not be recognized by Greek Orthodox Catholic Scholars/Theologians [or any orthodox for that matter past/present/future]. Ignoring the history of the events before/during/after the council of Nicea is not good for you. :shakehead: . When time allows I will share more. May Grace be with you.

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#33

Post by Gman » Fri May 28, 2010 11:01 am

Obiwan wrote:Gman you would have done well at the Council of Nicea however showing prooftext and putting a meaning of the western trinity to them would not be recognized by Greek Orthodox Catholic Scholars/Theologians [or any orthodox for that matter past/present/future]. Ignoring the history of the events before/during/after the council of Nicea is not good for you. :shakehead: .
Ignoring what history? You forget that the creed of Nicea (or the framework of it) actually came in 325 AD even before the Bible was canonized.. The entire New Testament as we know it today, was canonized around 375 A.D.

http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Bible_ ... nonized.3F
Obiwan wrote: When time allows I will share more. May Grace be with you.
Yes.. We can't wait to see what truths you claim to have.

Thanks..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#34

Post by B. W. » Fri May 28, 2010 1:25 pm

Gman wrote:
Obiwan wrote:Gman you would have done well at the Council of Nicea however showing prooftext and putting a meaning of the western trinity to them would not be recognized by Greek Orthodox Catholic Scholars/Theologians [or any orthodox for that matter past/present/future]. Ignoring the history of the events before/during/after the council of Nicea is not good for you. :shakehead: .
Ignoring what history? You forget that the creed of Nicea (or the framework of it) actually came in 325 AD even before the Bible was canonized.. The entire New Testament as we know it today, was canonized around 375 A.D.

http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Bible_ ... nonized.3F
Obiwan wrote: When time allows I will share more. May Grace be with you.
Yes.. We can't wait to see what truths you claim to have.

Thanks..
I'll hold off some OT examples until we see what truths you claim Obiwan...
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#35

Post by Obiwan » Fri May 28, 2010 2:37 pm

Peace Love and Grace to all, Once again I come unto with a humble heart and mind. It is hard when Evangelical christians such as yourself [Gman] project the spirit that you do in your posts, I could be taking them in the wrong way. I am reminded of a book on my bookshelf entitled : "The Scandle Of The Evangelical Mind", it reminds me why I am no longer a Evangelical Christian. If I were to leave the LDS Faith/Church I would go back to my Weslyan/Methodist History [Not my Fundamentalist Independant Baptist History] or I would seriously consider Greek Orthodoxy.
The council of Nicea from my reading was political [not spiritual], and the events that during that time were not very Christ like -[death threats/torture and actual deaths/torture, threats of beatings and actual beatings, threats of banishments and actual banishments, threats of harming one's family and acualy hurting one's family threats of taking one's property and actualy taking one's property, a tragedy. These events are historicaly recorded in places.
Now you are probably thinking I am avoiding/dodging the trinity issue, in your eyes/mind this is true but not for me. I am not into greek/metaphysical/ontiological rhetorical dialectic in explaining GOD/JESUS CHRIST/HOLY GHOST but to simply share my Faith about them in simple terms. Sith Lord/Borg approaches do not work with me. Because of my physical/mental challenges it is difficult at times, and my computer skills are limited so show some Love, Jesus would. :amen: So soon I will share some History on the Council of Nicea and other topics related. May Grace be with you all.

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#36

Post by B. W. » Fri May 28, 2010 3:22 pm

What Mormanism teaches:

Mormon 8:18; “For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity”.

D&C 130:22; “The Father has a body of flesh, and bones as tangible as man's” Articles of Faith: “We believe in a God who is Himself progressive…whose perfection consists in eternal advancement…”

D&C 20:17; “By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them”.

Gospel Through the Ages, pg. 104; “President Joseph F. Smith declared that “God himself is an exalted man, perfected, enthroned and supreme”. Elder Orson Hyde, a member of the Quorom of the Twelve said: “Remember that God our Heavenly Father was perhaps once a child, and mortal like we are, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement…”

Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 322-23, 517, 643, "God himself, the Father of us all, is a glorified, exalted immortal resurrected man!"

Journal of Discourses, V6, P3, 1844, "...God himself was once as we are now and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens..."

Lorenzo Snow, quoted in Milton R. Hunter, the Gospel Through the Ages, pp. 105-106, "As man is, God once was: as God is, man may become."


Here is what the bible says....

Isa 45:5 -I am the LORD, and there is no other; There is no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me,

Isa 44:6 - "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.

Isa 45:18 - For thus says the LORD, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Hosea 11:9, “…For I am God and not man, the Holy One in the midst of thee…”

Malachi 3:6, “For I am the LORD, I change not…”

Isa 43:10, "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.

Isa 45:21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides
Me.

Obiwan - how can you deal with this?

Next, the Old Testament Hebrew is thoroughly written in Trinitarian form when describing God. Even the grammar proves this truth — NONE LIKE GOD:


Isa 46:9 - Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,

Deuteronomy 33:26 - "There is no one like the God of Jeshurun, Who rides the heavens to help you, And in His excellency on the clouds.

2 Samuel 7:22 - Therefore You are great, O Lord GOD. For there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears.


Mormon doctrine teaches as well as reduces God into knowable forms, how then can there be truly NONE LIKE HIM? The D&C is in error so is Joseph Smith...

The Orthodox Christian doctrine of the Trinity preserves God's oneness in His entire Unique Form thus retaining and preserving the truth that there is truly NONE LIKE GOD

Mormon doctrine does not retain this truth…does it -- be honest Obiwan...

Bible Quotes from NKJV
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#37

Post by Obiwan » Fri May 28, 2010 4:11 pm

Thank you for the prooftext, I appriciate your concern, here is a view of the Council of Nicea http://people.uncw.edu/zervosg/PR238/Conflict6.htm

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#38

Post by Obiwan » Fri May 28, 2010 4:29 pm

y:O2 y:-/ y[-o<
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

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Post by Obiwan » Fri May 28, 2010 4:40 pm

After Nicea - http://www.geocities.com/athens/Olympus ... nicaea.htm

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#40

Post by Gman » Fri May 28, 2010 6:15 pm

Obiwan wrote:After Nicea - http://www.geocities.com/athens/Olympus ... nicaea.htm

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Again... Your links are merely beliefs. And it's old news... :popcorn: Again the Trinity came together even before the Bible was officially canonized..

Read this.. http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/creeds.html

And we have archeological proof of this too..

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... hurch.html

So why can't you answer my questions Obi? Why can't you show me from the Bible where the Trinity, God in three persons, is wrong?

So since you won't reveal what Mormonism really teaches about God, I thought I would show you some sources myself.. First off, Joseph Smith taught the plurality of many gods.. This is basically polytheism Obi..

Please read...

Joseph Smith's Sermon on the Plurality of Gods

Printed in History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473-479.

Meeting in the Grove, east of the Temple, June 16, 1844.

President Joseph Smith read the 3rd chapter of Revelation, and took for his text 1st chapter, 6th verse—"And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father: to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

It is altogether correct in the translation. Now, you know that of late some malicious and corrupt men have sprung up and apostatized from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and they declare that the Prophet believes in a plurality of Gods, and, lo and behold! we have discovered a very great secret, they cry—"The Prophet says there are many Gods, and this proves that he has fallen."

It has been my intention for a long time to take up this subject and lay it clearly before the people, and show what my faith is in relation to this interesting matter. I have contemplated the saying of Jesus (Luke 17th chapter, 26th verse)—"And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of Man." And if it does rain, I'll preach this doctrine, for the truth shall be preached.

I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that express purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years.

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it!

Source.. http://mrm.org/sermon-in-the-grove

More here..

God the Father According to Mormonism

Popular Mormon depiction of the First Vision The Mormon doctrine of God is not the same as the historic Christian view. It holds that God and man are essentially of the same species, and that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones. He is not uniquely self-existent, transcendent, or eternal. Neither is he truly the creator of all things, for he is one among potentially billions of Gods, and does not even have the ability to create matter. As BYU professor David Paulson once put it, "God does not have absolute power... but rather the power to maximally utilize natural laws to bring about His purposes."

The traditional Mormon view of God is summed up by the famous Lorenzo Snow couplet, "As man is God once was, as God is man may be." The historic understanding of this strongly implies that God the Father was once a sinner, and that we ourselves may model our mortal experience unto godhood after the mortal experience he once participated in. In his famous "King Follett Discourse" Joseph Smith taught,

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret... [Y]ou have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you..."

In a later sermon Joseph Smith boldly preached:

"If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it."

To the contrary, God says in Isaiah 43:10, "Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me." Psalm 90:2 says of him, "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God." This is the God Christians worship. Of him we can say, "Who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor? Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid? For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen." (Romans 11:34-36)

Not all Mormon prophets have held to the traditional Mormon view of God the Father. Brigham Young taught that "Adam was the father of the spirits of mankind in addition to being the first procreator of mankind's physical bodies; that Adam came to this earth as a resurrected and exalted being; that he 'fell' to a mortal state of existence in order to procreate mortal bodies; and that Adam was the spiritual and physical father of Jesus Christ." (David John Buerger, Dialogue, Vol.15, No.1, p.45) This doctrine has been denounced by subsequent Mormon leaders as a deadly, damnable heresy.
Who is the One Mormons Call Elohim?

By Bill McKeever

For centuries Christians have professed their belief in a God who is God alone (Is. 44:8), self-existent (Is. 43:10; 48:12), transcendent (Num. 23:19; Ps. 50:21), immutable (Ps. 102:27; Is. 46:10; Mal. 3:6), eternal (Ps. 90:2; 93:2), omnipresent (1 Kings 8:27; Prov. 15:3; Is. 66:1; Jer. 23: 23, 24), and incorporeal (John 4:24; Col. 1:15; 1 Tim. 1:17). He is also a God who dwells in the believer (Eph. 3:17; 4:6; Rom. 8:9) and is omnipotent (Job 42:2; Ps. 115:3; Matt. 19:26). Mormons insist that their God, the one they call Elohim, is the Christian God. Why then are his attributes so different from the God who is declared in the Bible?
The god of Mormonism is one of many gods.

Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, stated, "I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods" (History of the Church 6:474).

Brigham Young, the second prophet and president of the LDS Church, said, "How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods..." (Journal of Discourses 7:333).
The god of Mormonism is not self-existent.

Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt taught, "We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father, and so one, from one generation to generation" (The Seer, pg. 132).
The god of Mormonism is not transcendent.

While the God of the Bible makes it clear that He is not like man, Mormon leaders have insisted that their God is an exalted human being.

Joseph Smith declared, "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345).

Mormon Apostle John Widtsoe stated, "God and man are of the same race, differing only in their degrees of advancement" (Gospel Through the Ages, pg. 107).

This concurs with Mormon Apostle Parley P. Pratt's comment which states, "God, angels, and men are all of the same species, one race, one great family..." (Key to the Science of Theology, 1978 ed., pg. 21).
The god of Mormonism is not immutable.

Whereas God's perfection makes it never necessary for Him to change, the God of Mormonism changes both in his physical person and moral attributes. This is demonstrated by the fact that he evolved from a man into a God and that he has changed decrees which are theoretically "unalterable." Examples of this would include the abandonment of polygamy in 1890, the reversal of the ban which withheld the LDS Priesthood from Blacks in 1978, and the changes in the LDS temple ceremony in 1980.
The god of Mormonism is not eternally God.

Joseph Smith taught that God was not always God when he stated, "We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see" (Teachings, pg. 345).
The god of Mormonism is not incorporeal.

Unlike the God of the Bible who is a God of Spirit (John 4:24), Joseph Smith taught, "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's" (D&C 130:22).
The god of Mormonism is not omnipresent.

Because the LDS God is limited to a physical body, he is not omnipresent. Brigham Young said, "Some would have us believe that God is present everywhere. It is not so" (Journal of Discourses 6:345).

LDS Apostle James Talmage stated that neither God the Father, nor "any actual person of any one member of the Godhead can be physically present in more than one place at one time" (The Articles of Faith, pg. 39). The Mormon God's "omnipresence" is fulfilled through the Holy Spirit which, according to Mormon Apostle John Widtsoe, is not to be confused with the Holy Ghost (Evidences and Reconciliations, pp. 76-77).
The god of Mormonism cannot dwell in the believer.

According to Joseph Smith, "The idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man's heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false" (D&C 130:3. Oddly enough, the Book of Mormon teaches the Lord does dwell in the hearts of the righteous. See Alma 34:36).
The god of Mormonism is not omnipotent.

As Mormons believe they will always be subservient to their God, so too it would make sense that their God is subservient to his God as well. It would also makes sense that if the LDS God is the offspring of another God, then his God must be more advanced in his eternal progression than the God whom Mormons claim to serve.

Mormon author W. Cleon Skousen stated that God is God only because another force sustains him as such. He wrote, "Through modern revelation we learn that the universe is filled with vast numbers of intelligences, and we further learn that Elohim is God simply because all of these intelligences honor and sustain Him as such...since God 'acquired' the honor and sustaining influence of 'all things' it follows as a corollary that if He should ever do anything to violate the confidence or 'sense of justice' of these intelligences, they would promptly withdraw their support, and the 'power' of God would disintegrate...'He would cease to be God'" (The First 2,000 Years, pp. 355-356).

That the LDS God would have to answer to anyone clearly shows he is not omnipotent. Some Mormons insist his omnipotence lies in the fact that he has unlimited power, not all power. This too is inconsistent with Mormon thought since the God of Mormonism has no ability to create ex-nihilo, or out of nothing. The God of Mormonism is limited to only being able to reorganize matter.
The god of Mormonism does not forgive completely.

Another major difference between the God of the LDS Church and that of historical Christianity lies in the fact that the God of the Bible forgives completely. In Isaiah 43:25 we read, "I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." In Jeremiah 31:34 it says God "will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Hebrews 8:12 states, "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." How comforting to know that the God of the Bible wills not to remember the believer's past sins!

The God of Mormonism, however, must keep in remembrance past transgressions for D&C 82:7 warns, "And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto the soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God." There is no possible way that these two beings can be the same.
Conclusion

There is probably no greater sin than to place your trust in a God whose attributes do not match those of the God of the Bible. The biblical term for such a sin is idolatry. The fact that Joseph Smith failed to represent the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob proves that he was not a true prophet. God warned the children of Israel that if any arose and attempted to entice Israel to "go after other gods" he was to be put to death (Deuteronomy 13:1-3, 5). Do you think He takes this any less serious today? To insist on following the God of the Mormon Church will result in spiritual death, a painful separation from the Creator for all eternity. The stakes are too high to trust in any other. Our prayer for all Latter-day Saints is that they see how they have been deceived by Joseph Smith and the "prophets and apostles" who followed him and ultimately place their trust in the God who has been changing lives for centuries, the God of the Bible.

http://mrm.org/god-of-mormonism

This is not the same Jesus Obi... I'm sorry.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#41

Post by Obiwan » Fri May 28, 2010 6:31 pm

Relying on anti LDS websites again, my my. :o Once again you do not deal with the material presented in the web sites I posted you just ignored them. I am very familiar with the material you presented by MRM and Bill McKeever along with the other quoted material.

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#42

Post by Gman » Fri May 28, 2010 6:37 pm

Obiwan wrote:Relying on anti LDS websites again, my my. :o Once again you do not deal with the material presented in the web sites I posted you just ignored them. I am very familiar with the material you presented by MRM and Bill McKeever along with the other quoted material.

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Ok.. So refute it... Mormonism teaches polytheism. Refute that please..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#43

Post by Gman » Fri May 28, 2010 6:40 pm

I have studied Mormonism for many years Obi.. I even own a copy of the BoM. I even lived among them in my old state of Idaho..

So don't be bashful..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#44

Post by Obiwan » Fri May 28, 2010 6:45 pm

True polytheism has multiple gods over all aspects of creation and things, We have no such doctrine.Sorry you do not get it.
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Gman wrote:I have studied Mormonism for many years Obi.. I even own a copy of the BoM. I even lived among them in my old state of Idaho..

So don't be bashful..
So ?, I have lived among Evangelical Protestants for decades :ebiggrin: .

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#45

Post by Obiwan » Fri May 28, 2010 6:49 pm

http://14lds.com/trinity.htm

In His Debt/Grace
Obiwan
LDS JEDI KNIGHT

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