Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#121

Post by B. W. » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:26 am

Here is the full text of the June 7, 1844 Expositor - page two column one around the middle is interesting…

http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/exposit1.htm
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#122

Post by Obiwan » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:33 am

CeT-To wrote:Obi, also take a look at this article.

http://www.carm.org/false-prophecies-of-joseph-smith

CeT-To thank you I am familiar with the supposed false prophecies and with c.a.r.m responces have been done by LDS JEDI KNIGHT Apologist. Thanks for the concern.

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#123

Post by Obiwan » Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:51 am

B. W. wrote:Here is the full text of the June 7, 1844 Expositor - page two column one around the middle is interesting…

http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/exposit1.htm
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Yes interesting but Truth ?, where are the witnesses ?, more National Enquirer material [19th Century style].
Once again , where are the convictions ?, Keep looking y:-? . This thread is supposed to be about : Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity. Your off in a wabbit hole again. have a blessed day.

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#124

Post by B. W. » Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:29 am

Obiwan,

It is a fact that sexual predators have many multiplied victims before they are caught and the ones known about are often not reported but are just excused away by those that know the perpetrator. It is documented that Joseph Smith married 14 year olds. It is documented that he wrote on how he would visit them during the night and what to do. How many more of these encounters were not reported under the Law of Sarah and classed as concubines — is unknown.

The facts and evidence point to Mr. Smith being a sexual predator of young Girls of at least 14 to 17 years old. There may be no conviction due to his demise and rank in the church, but there is enough to convict him had he lived. Just because there is no conviction does not disprove the massive evidence of the founders sexual appetites that do indeed fit attributes of sexual predators to a tee.

That is the sad thing you refuse to see. This is important as it establishes the fact that the early Mormon founders fit the description mentioned in 2 Peter 2:13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19-20 - as apostate. Since apostate, therefore their doctrines are apostate too.

Look at the fixation these Founders placed on sex, multiple wives in heaven, God having sex in heaven making spiritual god children in search of a home. Listen carefully to what Jesus said in Matthew 22:29-31 and try for once to stop interjecting Mormon doctrine into it:

Mat 22:29-31, "Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God..."NKJV

There is no reason for spiritual sex in heaven nor marriage. Period.

Smith and Young made God the Father into be being that once a man, elevated to godhood, having flesh and bones, etc...

What Jesus says in John 4:23-24 does not verify this: “But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." NKJV

Why is this all important to the topic of the Trinity? Mormon founders made God just like anyone else and anyone can be violating what God himself stated in the Bible that there is None like God

Therefore, based on the preponderant focus on sex, J Smith's sexual exploits and other founders, the misapplication scripture, proves Mormon doctrine regarding the trinity as being merely tritheistic is false — again fitting the criteria set forth in 2 Peter 2:10-22

The reason the Mormons founders vehemently opposed the Christian doctrine of the Trinity is that it will destroy their collective power and hold over people used to exploit them and get people to submit to the sin of Satan - becoming god...
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P. S. Deuteronomy 18:20, "But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. KJV

Joseph Smith was killed. God does not mince with words nor does he tolerate people who speak in the name of other gods as did Smith.

Did or did not J Smith teach on plural gods and becoming gods? Presumed to speak words in the Lords name which were never commanded of him to speak? Did he die a violent death?
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#125

Post by Obiwan » Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:32 pm

My, my more justifying your position, I have already referenced links to responses to the sexual accusations you have made about Joseph Smith Jr. He also spoke of the true and living GOD and sealed his testimony with his blood as did the anchient Prophets and Apostles of anchient times who died violent deaths for there testimony of Jesus Christ. So no convictions, just polemical hyperbole accusations and mind reading. You still have not read David Pyle's Apologetic work I referenced a few posts back on Theosis/Deification of man or even made a comment of it. You sure do talk alot about sex in this thread :oops: , you are grasping alot. Still curious where you attend church
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#126

Post by Gman » Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:00 pm

Obiwan wrote:My, my more justifying your position, I have already referenced links to responses to the sexual accusations you have made about Joseph Smith Jr. He also spoke of the true and living GOD and sealed his testimony with his blood as did the anchient Prophets and Apostles of anchient times who died violent deaths for there testimony of Jesus Christ.
Please don't equate Joseph Smith to martyrdom or Jesus Christ. It's very offensive.. He most certainly was neither.. According to your sources he had an appetite for multiple women and carried around guns and called themselves gods to justify it.. Unfortunately his luck ran out on him when righteous people road up against him.
Obiwan wrote:You sure do talk alot about sex in this thread :oops:
Don't look at us... Joseph Smith and Brigham Young sure had a problem with it however. And we have to address these issues.
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#127

Post by B. W. » Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:27 pm

Obiwan wrote:My, my more justifying your position, I have already referenced links to responses to the sexual accusations you have made about Joseph Smith Jr. He also spoke of the true and living GOD and sealed his testimony with his blood as did the anchient Prophets and Apostles of anchient times who died violent deaths for there testimony of Jesus Christ. So no convictions, just polemical hyperbole accusations and mind reading. You still have not read David Pyle's Apologetic work I referenced a few posts back on Theosis/Deification of man or even made a comment of it. You sure do talk alot about sex in this thread :oops: , you are grasping alot. Still curious where you attend church
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The reason I bring up the founders sexual exploits is due to signed court affidavits — signed under penalty of perjury. County records can be verified by the women he seduced. Next, Every predator uses the play the victim card. That is rife in the D&C and other early Mormon doctrines as well as knowing how groom people to support them. Most of Mormon Apologetics subscribes to this line of reason: Attack and discredit all opponents, shout out reason, use only favorable comments, and play the — we are the victim card i.e. persecution card.

Get over it, Obiwan, no one is attacking you. All we are asking you is to honestly look at the preponderance of evidence against Smith and Mormon founders instead of Fair Farm Mormon apologetics. We cannot force you to look at the truth — all we can do is suggest that you to look at it. And ask questions about J Smith.

In Ohio, where he did the bank scam, just because he left town does not prove his innocence. Back in the 1800's you did not have the FBI, or the means for the Federal Govt to go after frauds that leave a county of a state — go into another county of the same state, then go across state lines into another state. J Smith was not fleeing presupposed persecution but rather legal trouble — bank fraud. His leaving speaks volumes about his guilt. He could run, go to another state, and the Fed's could not do much to him as they were not set up for such things as they are nowadays.

He then goes into another state and purchases tracks of land laundered thru the church and its members. Where did the wealth come from to do all this? Ever thought of that? Where did the money come from? You see — you are not permitted to ask the hard questions and seek out all the facts. You are only permitted what Fair and farm tell you what the truth is. They explain and twist (spin) but for you to dig on your own, without their guidance — you can't do that can you?

I pointed out just briefly in the D&C how Smith taught that people become gods — it is there in the D&C. Next, Mormons use Christian Terms like deification, atonement, etc and have entirely different meanings assigned to each so appeals to look at Mormon apologetics is not a good tactic to use here. That is why I am not going there - not yet anyway...

J Smith also wrote his own version of the New Testament (KJV) and added to it. He added to the Book of Revelation and took out of it words. This is something not tolerated by God. You have two tangible strikes against Smith — he taught that people can become gods and adding to the Book of Revelation despite the catastrophic warning against doing so.

Add to this his lustful appetites, sworn affidavits from some of his victims and even his own faithful wives. Add - Bank fraud — you do not have a Prophet but a conman and worse, someone who fears not God. Add to that the Lord's injunction that false Prophets will die in Deuteronomy 18:20: "But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. KJV

God permitted his being struck down and he died just as the Lord said would happen to such persons - it just says that prophet shall die not the manner or type or how...they will die but rather they will die...

J Smith also wrote other books, which contain plagiarism quote directly in perfect King James Bible verses along with the italicized words no less! —Thus, fitting the presuming to speak in the Lords name that the Lord did not command him to communicate part of the warning.

He died not as a martyr as did Stephen did in the book of Acts proclaiming that the Prophet mention by Moses to come was Jesus Christ — not J Smith! Acts 7:37

How unlike Stephen were both Hyrum and Joseph. Hyrum cried out, “I am a dead man.” A Joseph Smith jumping out a window after firing back at the mob and then killed. Wow, the differences between the words of God's own true martyrs shouts and actions before their own violent ends and these two, well, is very telling - speaking volumes about the true character of the founders! Founders guilty of altering the word of God in the bible, adding to God word, teaching god's will is to become gods, fornicators — discovered sworn by court testimony! Swindlers, real False Prophets through and through…
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 135

1 To seal the testimony of this book and the Book of Mormon, we announce the martyrdom of Joseph Smith the Prophet, and Hyrum Smith the Patriarch. They were shot in Carthage jail, on the 27th of June, 1844, about five o'clock p.m., by an armed mob—painted black—of from 150 to 200 persons. Hyrum was shot first and fell calmly, exclaiming: I am a dead man! Joseph leaped from the window, and was shot dead in the attempt, exclaiming: O Lord my God! They were both shot after they were dead, in a brutal manner, and both received four balls.
Deuteronomy 18:20-22: "But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die 21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
KJV

Add in the false prophecies of its own founders and Joseph Smith bore out as untrue. Think about this. Jesus will returned as he came and the New City will descend not in Missouri but in Israel where Jerusalem is, reconciling heaven to earth and earth to heaven, just as the bible plainly teaches! Next, add in Falsehood of ancient civilizations in North America where they had animals that were not even introduced to the Americas until 1492 thu the 1700's! Mormon apologetics has it work cut out for it in order to prove the lies of a couple of conman...

Hyrum was shot first and fell calmly, exclaiming: I am a dead man! Joseph leaped from the window, and was shot dead in the attempt, exclaiming: O Lord my God!

Compare this to Stephen in Act 7:59, 60, “And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.”

Hyrum: I am a dead man!

Joseph trying to escape leaping through a window: O Lord my God!

The difference is extreme! to say the least if not less...

It is up to you to prove J Smith did not plagiarize the KJ Bible into his own text, his prophecies all true 100 percent accurate according to the test of a Prophet, that money from a bank was not used to purchase land, not a fornicator, adulter, not a treasure hunter who used divination practices to seek out treasure, who was not egotistic power hungry man, and someone who did not teach that people can become gods — it is up to you to prove this, not by quoting Mormon apologetic material, but by honest research and asking the tough questions.

It is you who are grasping a lot — not us…
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#128

Post by B. W. » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:12 pm

I deleted this post as I re-edited it and posted it again below with further intel added in...
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#129

Post by B. W. » Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:07 pm

I notice a few misspelled words in my last post and corrected these - sorry about that to anyone reading these.

Now let me add too it this question for Obiwan,

From Mormon Doctrine it is derived that god's spirit children must progress into godhood. In other words according to Mormon doctrine, Jesus was the first of these spirit children. Now from Abraham 3:22-25 and D&C 93:21-29 we learn one must progress into godhood by talking on a mortal form, learn lessons needed in order to enter into exaltation — godhood. See: http://scriptures.lds.org for quotes…

Therefore according to Mormon doctrine it is a must, an absolute must, that everyone of elohim's spirit children take on a physical body to enter into eternal progression. Now the question comes to mind that also according to Mormon doctrine, Jesus became a god before assuming a physical body — correct?

Now if it is an absolute requirement that everyone of elohim's spirit children must progress into godhood by taking on a mortal physical form first — then how could Jesus become a god by bypassing the father's own requirements of becoming flesh first before becoming like god? How about the Mormon holy spirit, being for that matter be god, bypassing the necessary requirement to attain godhood as well?

Did the Mormon jesus rebel — not keeping the father's will — how then can they really be one in mind — will — purpose - being in perfect unity and harmony and mormon jesus not follow the father's requirements?

(For Mormon concept of oneness referring to the Godhead see Note A below)

Obiwan — can you explain this contradiction: Jesus being god before mortal progression, or learning any lessons? As well as the mormon holy spirit be a god in complete unity and harmony with the requirements set forth from the father?
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P.S. = For those reading who are not familiar with Mormon doctrine concerning elohim having spirit children may want to look at this link for further information from this pro-mormon wiki: http://www.mormonwiki.com/Pre-Mortal_Life

For Balance this link - http://mrm.org/jesus-of-mormonism

Note A — Mormon concept of the Godhead being one means one in purpose, will, doing what the other would do, etc… therefore the Trinity to them is tritheistic — three individual main gods who are united in will and purpose, etc… There is another god — a mother god not mentioned whose sole purpose is to bear spirit children…after union with father god…of course...and if she had a headache then I guess that was reason for multiple goddess wives…of course
From this Mormon Link it sums up what Mormons mean referring to the Godhead as being one and other terms The Godhead "Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost (A of F 1). These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe. Each member of the Godhead is an independent personage, separate and distinct from the other two, the three being in perfect unity and harmony with each other (AF, chap. 2)." Encyclopedia of Mormonism
For balance read this link = http://www.evidenceandanswers.org/artic ... 0Jesus.pdf
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#130

Post by Obiwan » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:39 pm

Just a heads up that my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Brother In Christ Jesus and I will be busy with Family and personal events in our lives but will return when we can. Thank you for your patience,

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#131

Post by B. W. » Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:05 am

Obiwan, take your time and while doing so let me bring more clarification to my last post:

But before I do, we need to look over material from the LDS website to documnet Mormon doctrine clearly first so we can understand the question I posed about - how could the mormon jesus become god without becoming mortal first?

So for you who are reading this, please look over the quoted material, then see my comments below this LDS info:

The information quoted below from the LDS Webiste
Plan of Salvation

In the premortal existence, Heavenly Father prepared a plan to enable us to become like Him and receive a fulness of joy. The scriptures refer to this plan as "the plan of salvation" (Alma 24:14; Moses 6:62), "the great plan of happiness" (Alma 42:8), "the plan of redemption" (Jacob 6:8; Alma 12:30), and "the plan of mercy" (Alma 42:15). The plan of salvation is the fulness of the gospel. It includes the Creation, the Fall, the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and all the laws, ordinances, and doctrines of the gospel. Moral agency, the ability to choose and act for ourselves, is also essential in Heavenly Father's plan. Because of this plan, we can be perfected through the Atonement, receive a fulness of joy, and live forever in the presence of God. Our family relationships can last throughout the eternities.

Premortal Life

Before we were born on the earth, we lived in the presence of our Heavenly Father as one of His spirit children. In this premortal existence, we attended a council with Heavenly Father's other spirit children. At that council, Heavenly Father presented His great plan of happiness (see Abraham 3:22—26).

In harmony with the plan of happiness, the premortal Jesus Christ, the Firstborn Son of the Father in the spirit, covenanted to be the Savior (see Moses 4:2; Abraham 3:27). Those who followed Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ were permitted to come to the earth to experience mortality and progress toward eternal life. Lucifer, another spirit son of God, rebelled against the plan and "sought to destroy the agency of man" (Moses 4:3). He became Satan, and he and his followers were cast out of heaven and denied the privileges of receiving a physical body and experiencing mortality (see Moses 4:4; Abraham 3:27—28).

Throughout our premortal lives, we developed our identity and increased our spiritual capabilities. Blessed with the gift of agency, we made important decisions, such as the decision to follow Heavenly Father's plan. These decisions affected our life then and now. We grew in intelligence and learned to love the truth, and we prepared to come to the earth, where we could continue to progress.

Mortal Life

We are now experiencing mortal life. Our spirits are united with our bodies, giving us opportunities to grow and develop in ways that were not possible in premortal life. This part of our existence is a time of learning in which we can prove ourselves, choose to come unto Christ, and prepare to be worthy of eternal life. It is also a time when we can help others find the truth and gain a testimony of the plan of salvation.

Life after Death

When we die, our spirits will enter the spirit world and await the resurrection. At the time of the resurrection, our spirit and body will reunite, and we will be judged and received into a kingdom of glory. The glory we inherit will depend on the depth of our conversion and our obedience to the Lord's commandments (see Kingdoms of Glory). It will depend on the manner in which we have "received the testimony of Jesus" (D&C 76:51; see also D&C 76:74, 79, 101).

Blessings through Knowledge of the Plan

A testimony of the plan of salvation can give us hope and purpose as we wrestle with the challenges of life. We can find reassurance in the knowledge that we are children of God and that we lived in His presence before being born on the earth. We can find meaning in our present life, knowing that our actions during mortality influence our eternal destiny. With this knowledge, we can base important decisions on eternal truths rather than on the changing circumstances of life. We can continually improve our relationships with family members, rejoicing in the promise that our families can be eternal. We can find joy in our testimonies of the Atonement and the Lord's commandments, ordinances, covenants, and doctrines, knowing that "he who doeth the works of righteousness shall receive his reward, even peace in this world, and eternal life in the world to come" (D&C 59:23).
From the LDS website info posted we learn several things.

1 - We were once pre-mortal spirit children of the mormon god called father

2 - Mormon god heavenly father had a prepared a plan of progression to enable us premortal spirit children to become like him and receive a fullness of joy.

3 - In our premortal lives, we developed our identifies, capabilities, intelligence, and ability to choose to follow heavenly father or not, and where we are prepared to come to earth in physical from where we continue to progress to become just like dear old dad.

4 - During a great premortal meeting all us spirit children met before a great council where dad announced his preplanned (prepared) plan.

Now look closely at the section called Mortal life where it states: Our spirits are united with our bodies, giving us opportunities to grow and develop in ways that were not possible in premortal life.

Note it is not possible for daddy's spirit children to have any other means, opportunities to grow into godhood — be like dear old dad unless they become mortals first. That is the plan…always was the plan..passed on to dear old dad from grandpappy, great-great grandpapa, etc and etc… hence — a preplanned plan…prepared before the foundations of the world

Now this brings me to this point. How could mormon jesus, being god's first spirit child, become the god called Jehovah of the OT, when it is stated in Mormon doctrine, that the spirit children of god must become mortal before this can even happen because it is not possible because there are no other ways or means, opportunities for growth into godhood in the premortal state without first being able to prove oneself worthy for eternal life in a mortal state first. (Note: Mormonism defines eternal life as becoming exalted into a god, exaltation into full godhood — just like daddy so you carry the preplanned plan onward to your own planet with your own spirit family).

Mormon doctrine tries to get around mormon jesus premortal progression into godhood by teaching that the first born spirit child, mormon jesus, progressed into godhood by obedience, devotion, truth, in his premortal state as a spirit child and thus became the 2 god person of the Mormon tritheistic trinity (for this planet sphere only) before the rest of us. That's just because he's big brother... to the rest of the young'un's I guess…

Now since first born mormon jesus could progress into godhood in a premortal state, then how could it truly be not possible for other spirit children not to be able to do as big bro did?

Since mormon jesus did, why can't the rest of the spirit children do as he did?

Since mormon jesus did so, does this mean mormon heavenly father's prepared plan was a flawed based on faulty foresight because as mormon jesus proved it really was unnecessary to have to be born mortal in order to progress into exaltation into godhood thus attain eternal life as a god...the first born premortal spirit child did... would not this prove father wrong???

But according to the preplanned plan —such a progression is stated as not possible (means - impossible) because as you have read it direct from the LDS website:

Throughout our premortal lives, we developed our identity and increased our spiritual capabilities. Blessed with the gift of agency, we made important decisions, such as the decision to follow Heavenly Father's plan. These decisions affected our life then and now. We grew in intelligence and learned to love the truth, and we prepared to come to the earth, where we could continue to progress.

We are now experiencing mortal life. Our spirits are united with our bodies, giving us opportunities to grow and develop in ways that were not possible in premortal life. This part of our existence is a time of learning in which we can prove ourselves, choose to come unto Christ, and prepare to be worthy of eternal life
(Godhood). It is also a time when we can help others find the truth and gain a testimony of the plan of salvation.” (Become like daddy — have your own planet etc. And if you are guys — lots of goddess babes to hang around with so you can have lots of spirit children to carry out the preplanned plan to have your own planet - man! But if you're a gal — well — what choice do you have! Then least if you have goddess headache, then another can take your place…) Emphasis added with Mormon doctrine definitions for eternal life and salvation added in with humor in order to make a point.

Let's get back to mormon jesus as a premortal spirit child becoming god by avoiding the preplanned plan through his own premortal spiritual acts of obedience, devotion, and truth, and progressing into the 2 god person of the Mormon tritheistic trinity without abiding to the prepared plan:

How can this be when according to heavenly fathers preplanned prepared plan — one needs to be united with a physical body, that grants the only means for opportunities to grow and develop in ways that are not possible in premortal life to reach exaltation into godhood?

How can it be not possible in premortal state to arrive into godhood but mormon jesus did and became Jehovah of the OT?

Obiwan, How do you explain this lack of oneness unity, harmony, to heavenly father's prepared plan???

LSD Jedi Knights - How do explain this contradiction?
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Notes:

Eternal Life explained from LDS Webiste Link here

"Through revelation, God has given the gospel plan of salvation and exaltation for men to live by. Eternal life is God's life, which he hopes to share with all his children. But we are free to act for ourselves, “… to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great mediation of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.” (2 Ne. 2:27.)"

Eternal Life explainedIn This Link from D&C 132

Eternal Life explained Spencer W. Kimball Explains in this Link

"Only the valiant and faithful will be exalted.

"If we are true and faithful, we shall rise, not alone in immortality but unto eternal life. Immortality is to live forever in an assigned kingdom. Eternal life is to gain exaltation in the highest heaven and live in the family unit.21

"One man said the other day, the only thing he didn't like about the Mormon Church was that it claims to be the only one through which a man could be saved. I said, “Oh no, we make no such claim. We say that every good religionist and every good man who is not a religionist will be saved but there are degrees of salvation. …”22

"Those who have lived after the manner of the world shall go to a telestial kingdom whose glory is as the stars.

"Those who have been decent and upright and who have lived respectable and good lives will go to a terrestrial kingdom whose glory is as the moon.

"Those who have believed in Christ, who have forsaken the world, who have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide and been willing to lay their all on the altar, those who have kept the commandments of God—they shall go to a celestial kingdom whose glory is as the sun.23

"The road of life is plainly marked according to the divine purpose, the map of the gospel of Jesus Christ is made available to the travelers, the destination of eternal life is clearly established. At that destination our Father waits hopefully, anxious to greet his returning children. Unfortunately, many will not arrive.24

"Why will only a few reach exaltation in the celestial kingdom
?..."
I think Kimball's remark in quoted 6th paragraph is telling -"...they shall go to a celestial kingdom whose glory is as the sun..."

Maybe the Lake of fire is like unto sun for some???

Things that make you go Hmmm....
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#132

Post by B. W. » Sun Jun 13, 2010 2:12 pm

Hi Obiwan,

Sorry about coming on so strong but I have never heard a Mormon give an answer to why according to mormon theology, jesus was able to progress into godhood in his premortal state by bypassing the father's prepared plan that required all his spirit children to go through a state of mortalness first.

The usual response I have heard from many Mormons simply states this as a reason: jesus was able to bypass his father's plan because he was the first born and was able to progress into godhood through personal acts, deeds, works, during his spirit child premotal works of obedience, devotion, truth, etc and etc; thus, enabling him to bypass the requirement of becoming mortal first in order to progress into exalted godhood. However, this line of reasoning poses a contradiction to Mormon theology, writings, and doctrine.

When I bring this up, Mormons usual shy away and you do not hear from them again. If you are still willing to be engaged in this discussion, are you really willing to look at the contradictions contained within Mormon doctrines such as the one just posed?

The bible declares — God shows no partiality (favoritism) but the Mormon elohim does just that. This is clearly portrayed within Mormon scriptures during very premortal council said to have had happened when elohim chose one plan over another.

The very act of the mormon heavenly father favoring one above another clearly in the premortal state emphatically demonstrates partiality — respecting one above the others, does it not?

What biblical principle about God do the following passages lay forth?

2 Ch 19:7, “Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect (no partiality- no favoritism) of persons, nor taking of gifts. “ KJV

Job 34:19, “How much less to him that accepteth not (not partial — favors) the persons of princes, nor regardeth the rich more than the poor? for they all are the work of his hands. “KJV

Job 34:19 NKJV reads: “ Yet He is not partial to princes, Nor does He regard the rich more than the poor; For they are all the work of His hands…”

Act 10:34, “Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter (no partiality) of persons…”

Rom 2:11, “For there is no respect (no partiality) of persons with God.” KJV

Rom 2:11 reads in NKJV — “For there is no partiality with God.”


You see Mormon scriptures themselves teach and proves god being partial to mormon jesus' plan during that great premortal council. You have mormon god demonstrating partiality by letting one (mormon jesus) bypass his (the father's) own plan in how one must attain godhood.

This is clearly a doctrine of earning favoritism that basically teaches that one must earn the mormon god's favoritism through self effort in order to enter into the fullness of Mormon salvation, meaning exaltation i.e. into godhood.

Next, for the mormon jesus to have premortal favoritism bestowed upon him by mormon elohim would make mormon jesus not in accord to the mormon definition of oneness of harmony and purpose, etc with the father. How you may ask? Easy….

First, the mormon jesus did not have follow the father's rules — he did not obey them due to his becoming god in a premortal state. Proving that true testing of obedience and learning lessons in a mortal state is really not necessary. He was able to progress without doing so — how could this be declared impossible in Mormon scriptures yet still be possible for one?

This contradicts the main thrust of mormon theology that states and teaches that god's spirit children must become mortal in order to progress into godhood accord the prepared plan which the mormon jesus did not have to follow due to his spirit child premortal works making him achieve godhood. What is also interesting is that in Mormon theology it states that all spirit children born on this earth in a fleshly tabernacle had already passed the requirements of obeying god in their premortal state just to be able to be born on earth!

Now, If this is true — then why the need to become mortal in order to progress into godhood — haven't already choosing God then why relearn this all over again to learn lessons needed to become a god? The Mormon plan of redemption is in essence meaningless. Mormon theology is riddled in contradictions.

So Obiwan and any Mormon who may happen to read this: Is the Mormon heavenly father really the Heavenly Father God of the bible or someone else masquerading as a messenger of light?

With such partiality absolutely shown within mormon doctrine, writings, and its books — the mormon elohim cannot be the same Elohim that the bible reveals.
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So far, I never heard Mormons be able to answer this without discovering and exposing more contradictions within the frame work and fabric of their peculiar doctrines and writings that they cannot answer or conveniently edit away.

Add to this Joseph Smith's fixation on sex: teaching god having spiritual sex with many goddess wives in order to make spiritual children as the highest purpose for humankind to emulate. Add to this the sworn affidavits, and eye witness testimonials of J. Smith seducing 14 year old girls, etc... That is why I say, his peculiar theology supports the hypotheses that the early Mormon founders were sexual predators. The common sexual predators in today's modern world misuse any religion in the same way to justify their sexual appetites as recorded in their own treatment journals, therapy sessions, and own written records.
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#133

Post by B. W. » Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:26 pm

I wanted to show one more contradiction that Mormon theology fails to come to grips with. When confronted with this - Mormon's kind of - well - become real quiet...

According to the tenants of Mormon theology it states that the sole reason for god's spirit children need to become born into the fleshly tabernacles (mortal being) is because spirit children cannot be tempted. This temptation is viewed absolutely necessary in order to progress into godhood according to Mormon doctrine.

Now this poses a serious question — how could (spirit child) Satan, Lucifer have rebelled if he was unable to be tempted?

The bible is plain on this matter: Isaiah 14:13, 14 and Ezekiel 28:15, 16, 17, 18 clearly point out blatant acts of temptation such as: to become like god, take over God's place, iniquity found(uncovered) in him, due to splendor - violence, and his heart lifted up — how can all this be possible without the temptation mentioned in Isaiah 14:13-14?

Now, according to Mormon theology satan is also a spirit child of god — mormon jesus' brother as a matter of Mormon rote, therefore, spirit children can be tempted in their premortal state because they can decide to follow God or not. How could 1/3 of these beings fall away to follow without being tempted to do so?

Temptation as defined in the bible several ways: a state of acting contrary or wrongly; be tested to find out what is in one's heart; being tempted — solicited into wrong doing; moved and motivated to do something nefarious.

Now Isaiah 14:13, 14 and Ezekiel 28:15, 16, 17, 18, and James 1:13, 14 all fit every one of these definitions for the first to fall and rebel. Therefore, it is an error for Mormons to declare that it is impossible for spirit children to be tempted in their premortal state. If it is impossible, how could Lucifer have fallen? The need to become mortal just to be tempted in order to progress into godhood, is well, blatantly unnecessary.

Mormon theology goes to great lengths to entrap people into the same sin and temptation mentioned in Isaiah 14:13-14 and therefore is a false and dangerous religious system.

Obiwan —and any Mormons reading this — you need to find the real Jesus of the bible…

But such discovery will cost you your fellowship with Mormondom, family, friends, etc… what price is it if a person gain the whole world yet loses his very soul? - Mark 8:36, 37, 38 -

Doesn't Mormon theology ultimately teaches one how one can gain their own world?
-
-
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(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#134

Post by B. W. » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:05 pm

So far, when speaking with Mormons mission people, I seldom received any response to the main points I posted above. Most times, I do rarely hear from them again. I would like to leave a bit more with anyone reading this regarding Joseph Smith's translation of the bible. I am only selecting His Translation of the Book of Revelation. The reason for this choosing this particular book is the injunction mentioned in Revelation 22:18-19 regarding the dire consequences for altering this book.

The question arises, did Joseph Smith alter the book of Revelation or just translate it as would Modern Greek scholars translate the ESV, KJV, NKJV, GN, NIV?

Mormons claim J. Smith just translated as would any Modern Greek scholars translate the ESV, KJV, NKJV, GN, NIV into English direct from the Greek text. There is a problem with this argument. Modern Greek scholars translated the ESV, KJV, NKJV, GN, NIV into various respective English Translations did not alter the words, content, context, and did not change words into another word entirely. They stayed true the text and these modern translations adhere to the original Greek manuscripts.

Whereas the Joseph Smith Translation does not; therefore, I am posting all the changes J. Smith did to the book of Revelation and compare these changes to the King James Version, all in one place for your convenience and own reference use.

By this, you can see the changes he made to Revelation and that by this comparison, you can decide if he violated the dire warning of Rev 22:18-19 on your own. I will post Joseph Smith translation then the KJV for comparison below along with underlined parts most noticeable of altering:

LDS - J Smith changing book of Rev compared to King James version

Joseph Smith Translation quoted below are all from The Main LDS Website


JOSEPH SMITH TRANSLATION -- REVELATION 1: 1-8

John received a revelation from Jesus Christ and delivered it to the leaders over the seven churches in Asia.

1 The Revelation of John, a servant of God, which was given unto him of Jesus Christ, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass, that he sent and signified by his angel unto his servant John,
2 Who bore record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed are they who read, and they who hear and understand the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein, for the time of the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
4 Now this is the testimony of John to the seven servants who are over the seven churches in Asia. Grace unto you, and peace from him who is, and who was, and who is to come; who hath sent forth his angel from before his throne, to testify unto those who are the seven servants over the seven churches.
5 Therefore, I, John, the faithful witness, bear record of the things which were delivered me of the angel, and from Jesus Christ the first begotten of the dead, and the Prince of the kings of the earth.
6 And unto him who loved us, be glory; who washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God, his Father. To him be glory and dominion, forever and ever. Amen.
7 For behold, he cometh in the clouds with ten thousands of his saints in the kingdom, clothed with the glory of his Father. And every eye shall see him; and they who pierced him, and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 For he saith, I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.


King James Version compared below:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

+++++++++++

Joseph Smith Translation of Revelation 2:22 - Behold, I will cast her into hell, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

King James Version compared below:

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

++++++++++

JOSEPH SMITH TRANSLATION

REVELATION 2: 26-27 - 26 And to him who overcometh, and keepeth my commandments unto the end, will I give power over many kingdoms; 27 And he shall rule them with the word of God; and they shall be in his hands as the vessels of clay in the hands of a potter; and he shall govern them by faith, with equity and justice, even as I received of my Father.

King James Version compared below:

Revelation 2:26-27, "...And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

+++++++

JOSEPH SMITH TRANSLATION - REVELATION 5: 6 - And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having twelve horns and twelve eyes, which are the twelve servants of God, sent forth into all the earth.

King James Version compared below:

KJV -- Rev 5:6 Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

+++++++

JOSEPH SMITH TRANSLATION -- REVELATION 12: 1-17

The woman the Church, the child [the kingdom of God], the rod of iron [the word of God], the dragon [Satan], and Michael are explained. The war in heaven is continued on the earth. (compare Revelation 12: 1-17; Doctrine and Covenants 77)

1 And there appeared a great sign in heaven, in the likeness of things on the earth; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.
2 And the woman being with child, cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and his throne.
4 And there appeared another sign in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman which was delivered, ready to devour her child after it was born.
5 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore years.
6 And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought against Michael;
7 And the dragon prevailed not against Michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains, and brought forth the kingdom of our God and his Christ.
8 Neither was there place found in heaven for the great dragon, who was cast out; that old serpent called the devil, and also called Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into earth; and his angels were cast out with him.
9 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ;
10 For the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 For they have overcome him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; for they loved not their own lives, but kept the testimony even unto death. Therefore, rejoice O heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
12 And after these things I heard another voice saying, Woe to the inhabiters of the earth, yea, and they who dwell upon the islands of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 For when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 Therefore, to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might flee into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent casteth out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helpeth the woman, and the earth openeth her mouth, and swalloweth up the flood which the dragon casteth out of his mouth.
17 Therefore, the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[Note the changed sequence of verses in the J. Smith Translation….]


King James Version compared below:

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
+
++++++++

JOSEPH SMITH TRANSLATION --REVELATION 19: 15, 21

God uses the word of Christ to smite the nations.

15 And out of his mouth proceedeth the word of God, and with it he will smite the nations; and he will rule them with the word of his mouth; and he treadeth the wine-press in the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
• • •
21 And the remnant were slain with the word of him that sat upon the horse, which word proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

King James Version compared below:

KJV -- Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

KJV -- Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

++++++++++++++

These are the main changes Joseph Smith made to the book of Revelation. Please review them and compare to the KJV or NIV or ESV or NKJV. Ask yourself, did he or did he not alter this book in complete disregard of Revelation 22:18-19 dire warning:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Question: did Joseph Smith take away from the words of from the book of Revelation as well as added to them? Answeris yes…

Joseph Smith's death was not a martyr's death and according to Rev 22:18-19, he has had his name removed from the book of life…

So I ask any Mormon's who happen to read this — why do you follow such a person and his teachings?

Mormon theology ultimately teaches how a person can gain their own world. Now, please take the time to read out loud something Jesus said in Mark's gospel:

"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" Mark 8:36, KJV

As a Mormon, your very soul, spirit, afterlife is at stake. Remember such discovery will cost you your fellowship with Mormondom, family, friends, etc… what price is it if a person gain the whole world yet loses his very soul, spirit, afterlife - Mark 8:36, 37, 38? These are Jesus' words, not mine...

That is a high price to pay for a lie…
-
-
-
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(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#135

Post by B. W. » Sat Jun 19, 2010 10:06 pm

So far, when speaking with Mormons mission people, I seldom received any response to the main points I posted above. Most times, I rarely hear from them again. I would like to leave a bit more with anyone reading this regarding Joseph Smith's translation of the bible. I am only selecting His Translation of the Book of Revelation. The reason for this choosing this particular book is the injunction mentioned in Revelation 22:18-19 regarding the dire consequences for altering this book.

The question arises, did Joseph Smith alter the book of Revelation or just translate it as would Modern Greek scholars translate the ESV, KJV, NKJV, GN, NIV?

Mormons claim J. Smith just translated as would any Modern Greek scholars translate the ESV, KJV, NKJV, GN, NIV into English direct from the Greek text. There is a problem with this argument. Modern Greek scholars translated the ESV, KJV, NKJV, GN, NIV into various respective English Translations did not alter the words, content, context, and did not change words into another word entirely. They stayed true the text and these modern translations adhere to the original Greek manuscripts.

Whereas the Joseph Smith Translation does not; therefore, I am posting all the changes J. Smith did to the book of Revelation and compare these changes to the King James Version, all in one place for your convenience and own reference use.

By this, you can see the changes he made to Revelation and that by this comparison, you can decide if he violated the dire warning of Rev 22:18-19 on your own. I will post Joseph Smith translation then the KJV for comparison below along with underlined parts most noticeable of altering:

LDS - J Smith changing book of Rev compared to King James version

Joseph Smith Translation quoted below are all from The Main LDS Website


JOSEPH SMITH TRANSLATION -- REVELATION 1: 1-8

John received a revelation from Jesus Christ and delivered it to the leaders over the seven churches in Asia.

1 The Revelation of John, a servant of God, which was given unto him of Jesus Christ, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass, that he sent and signified by his angel unto his servant John,
2 Who bore record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed are they who read, and they who hear and understand the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein, for the time of the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
4 Now this is the testimony of John to the seven servants who are over the seven churches in Asia. Grace unto you, and peace from him who is, and who was, and who is to come; who hath sent forth his angel from before his throne, to testify unto those who are the seven servants over the seven churches.
5 Therefore, I, John, the faithful witness, bear record of the things which were delivered me of the angel, and from Jesus Christ the first begotten of the dead, and the Prince of the kings of the earth.
6 And unto him who loved us, be glory; who washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God, his Father. To him be glory and dominion, forever and ever. Amen.
7 For behold, he cometh in the clouds with ten thousands of his saints in the kingdom, clothed with the glory of his Father. And every eye shall see him; and they who pierced him, and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 For he saith, I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.


King James Version compared below:

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

+++++++++++

Joseph Smith Translation of Revelation 2:22 - Behold, I will cast her into hell, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

King James Version compared below:

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

++++++++++

JOSEPH SMITH TRANSLATION

REVELATION 2: 26-27 - 26 And to him who overcometh, and keepeth my commandments unto the end, will I give power over many kingdoms; 27 And he shall rule them with the word of God; and they shall be in his hands as the vessels of clay in the hands of a potter; and he shall govern them by faith, with equity and justice, even as I received of my Father.

King James Version compared below:

Revelation 2:26-27, "...And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

+++++++

JOSEPH SMITH TRANSLATION - REVELATION 5: 6 - And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having twelve horns and twelve eyes, which are the twelve servants of God, sent forth into all the earth.

King James Version compared below:

KJV -- Rev 5:6 Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

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JOSEPH SMITH TRANSLATION -- REVELATION 12: 1-17

The woman the Church, the child [the kingdom of God], the rod of iron [the word of God], the dragon [Satan], and Michael are explained. The war in heaven is continued on the earth. (compare Revelation 12: 1-17; Doctrine and Covenants 77)

1 And there appeared a great sign in heaven, in the likeness of things on the earth; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.
2 And the woman being with child, cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and his throne.
4 And there appeared another sign in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman which was delivered, ready to devour her child after it was born.
5 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore years.
6 And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought against Michael;
7 And the dragon prevailed not against Michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains, and brought forth the kingdom of our God and his Christ.
8 Neither was there place found in heaven for the great dragon, who was cast out; that old serpent called the devil, and also called Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into earth; and his angels were cast out with him.
9 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ;
10 For the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 For they have overcome him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; for they loved not their own lives, but kept the testimony even unto death. Therefore, rejoice O heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
12 And after these things I heard another voice saying, Woe to the inhabiters of the earth, yea, and they who dwell upon the islands of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 For when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 Therefore, to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might flee into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent casteth out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helpeth the woman, and the earth openeth her mouth, and swalloweth up the flood which the dragon casteth out of his mouth.
17 Therefore, the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[Note the changed sequence of verses in the J. Smith Translation….]


King James Version compared below:

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
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JOSEPH SMITH TRANSLATION --REVELATION 19: 15, 21

God uses the word of Christ to smite the nations.

15 And out of his mouth proceedeth the word of God, and with it he will smite the nations; and he will rule them with the word of his mouth; and he treadeth the wine-press in the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
• • •
21 And the remnant were slain with the word of him that sat upon the horse, which word proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

King James Version compared below:

KJV -- Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

KJV -- Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

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These are the main changes Joseph Smith made to the book of Revelation. Please review them and compare to the KJV or NIV or ESV or NKJV. Ask yourself, did he or did he not alter this book in complete disregard of Revelation 22:18-19 dire warning:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Question: did Joseph Smith take away from the words of from the book of Revelation as well as added to them? Answeris yes…

Joseph Smith's death was not a martyr's death and according to Rev 22:18-19, he has had his name removed from the book of life…

So I ask any Mormon's who happen to read this — why do you follow such a person and his teachings?

Mormon theology ultimately teaches how a person can gain their own world. Now, please take the time to read out loud something Jesus said in Mark's gospel:

"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" Mark 8:36, KJV

As a Mormon, your very soul, spirit, afterlife is at stake. Remember such discovery will cost you your fellowship with Mormondom, family, friends, etc… what price is it if a person gain the whole world yet loses his very soul, spirit, afterlife - Mark 8:36, 37, 38, NKJV ? These are Jesus' words, not mine...

That is a high price to pay for a lie…
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Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys

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