Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#106

Post by B. W. » Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:01 pm

Obiwan wrote:Touchy ?, pray tell, I am not afraid I am only speaking what I see, no judgement, only Christ Jesus Judges. [I Am really surprised you have never heard of Biff Tannon ! :esurprised: ]. I have already told you my position in my last post :clap: . Now Where in Gen 3:5 does it state that satan is offering full godhood to Adam and Eve ?, satan made 2 statements - #1 A lie -that they would not die, #2 - A truth -They would be "as gods knowing good from evil", see vrs 22 where the LORD states Behold the man "HAS BECOME AS ONE OF US TO KNOW GOOD AND EVIL". I have tried to be Christlike in my responses but I see it does not work. Just as the book by Mark Knoll presents in it's title 'The Scandle of The Evangelical Mind", I can see it first hand again. However in my many years of conversations/meetings with those Protestant Evangelicals many would put you to shame by there awesome Christlike interaction with me. Thank you again for reminding me why I am no longer a right wing Evangelical. There is no mote, only Love my evangelical friend y>:D< . Have a Blessed evening. In His Debt/Grace Obiwan LDS JEDI KNIGHT
You haven't answered any questions. So I take it, it is against Mormon Doctrine to ask questions or be honest in a debate? That is a sign something is wrong with Mormonism. Take a hard look at your own harsh words and accusatory self justifying tones towards us. Pride goes before a fall the good book says.. You are breaking commandments... Not us...

The purpose of this Forum is for civilized debate - people ask questions - people answer. Simple. Defend your position - do not dictate to us. Just answer the questions. Next, instead of accusing myself and others of citing false sources - why don't you prove that I and the others are wrong instead of trying to mock or intimidate us into your idea of submission?

I am asking perfectly logical and sincere questions - If you cannot defend Mormonism from such weaklings as we - then why are you here?

here are a few more...

How about this:
D&C 130:22 quote below

22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
Amazing, how can this be when God himself says there is NONE Like him in the bible in Isaiah 46:9 - yet, Mormon doctrine makes God the Father (ie Big God) just like man. Doesn't that pose a contradiction?

Since the bible plainly teaches that there is None Like God — then he cannot be as Mormon doctrine dictates, nor can the Big God be like any singular pseudo-deity, His Oneness has to be far different than all other singular beings to be truly — None Like the Lord.

Orthodox Christian Doctrine of the Trinity is true to Yahweh's Oneness, solidifying it as true — None Like the Lord!

Next Concerning Worship:
D&C 20:19-29 Below

19 And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship.

20 But by the transgression of these holy laws man became sensual and devilish, and became fallen man. 21 Wherefore, the Almighty God gave his only Begotten Son, as it is written in those scriptures which have been given of him. 22 He suffered temptations but gave no heed unto them. 23 He was crucified, died, and rose again the third day; 24 And ascended into heaven, to sit down on the right hand of the father, to reign with almighty power according to the will of the Father;

25 That as many as would believe and be baptized in his holy name, and endure in faith to the end, should be saved— 26 Not only those who believed after he came in the meridian of time, in the flesh, but all those from the beginning, even as many as were before he came, who believed in the words of the holy prophets, who spake as they were inspired by the gift of the Holy Ghost, who truly testified of him in all things, should have eternal life, 27 As well as those who should come after, who should believe in the gifts and callings of God by the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of the Father and of the Son;

28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

29 And we know that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and ensure in Faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.
Note Verse 28 — how can Father Son and Holy Spirit really be One if they are three separate God's as Mormon Tri-theism teaches?

How you all be called to only worship the Father but worship the Son?

Should the people worshiping the Son have been stopped by Jesus himself if only the Father is to worshiped? see - Mat 8:2 - Mat 9:18 — Mat 28:17 — John 9:38?

If not prevented by Jesus would not Jesus himself be guilty of sin thus nullifying the work on the cross? After all it is written (see) Mat 4:10 — Exodus 34:14 — Deuteronomy 11:16 - Deuteronomy 30:17-18 only the Father was to be worshiped during Jesus' time on earth?

The Orthodox Christian doctrine of the Trinity does no violence nor provides any contradiction; yet, Mormon poly -tri-theism and henotheism does just that! Doesn't it?
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#107

Post by Gman » Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:42 am

B. W. wrote:I am asking perfectly logical and sincere questions - If you cannot defend Mormonism from such weaklings as we - then why are you here?
Again great questions there B.W.. :clap:

The fact of the matter is they can't answer those questions. Therefore would the true Jedi master please step up? That would be you yoda (B.W.) master.. ;)
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#108

Post by Obiwan » Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:29 am

Some observations from my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Brother in Christ Jesus and I . You asked that - " Why does Mormon doctrine seek legitimacy to the serpants words recorded in Genisis 3:5 ? If it is not a crime to become god if this is God's intent - then why was Adam and Eve expelled from the Garden ? Why do Mormons seek to become like God in full comliance with the devil's own Words ?.

B.W did you ever stop to consider that only some of the serpent's words were lies and the others were true ?. The serpent made three promisis, as follows [ from Genesis 3:4-5 TNIV]

#1-You will not certainly die... #2-...your eyes shall be opened... #3- ...you will be like God

The first promise is a lie -[See Genesis 5:6]
The second promise was the TRUTH [see Genesis 3:7]
The third promise was on set on its way to be true, is true, and shall be true. [ See Genesis 3:22]

Sometimes the devil tells the truth to make his lies more palatable and easier to swallow. BW you and other critics should try tp remember this before attacking what you do not understand.

One other thing: Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden so as to prevent them from taking of the tree of life and making void the promise of God that they would certaily die for eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge. Perhaps you should keep reading your Bible's more :) .

B.W also wrote - "Mormonism makes god's of people - progress toward this end. This is violation of the first two commandments. Therefore the question still stands - Is Mormonism in violation to the first two commandmants ? "

Answer this yes or no.


According to Moses Maimonides [Rambam], regarded by the Jews as the foremost Jewish scholar of all times, said that the trinity violates the first two commandments and was not adverse to calling the Trinity polythiesm as well as stating for the record that only Jews and Muslims are true monothiest.

So, is christianity really in violation of the first two commandmaents ?, Yes or no ?.

Fact is , the official doctrine of the LDS Church is a kind of monothiesm spoken of in the article by Heiser [which you gave a link to]. Critics need to quote our official sources, not those which are speculative works of others and which are not official teachings of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints in any way. Hope this can be done in the future or do you prefer sensationalism and setting up stawmen that are easily knocked down ?.

And why is it that our critics are so unaware of the New Testement of the Bible, that claims that Jesus is God, also state that the Father is Jesus' God in several places ?. If The comman doctrine of the trinity is true in all its points, how is it that the author of Hebrews has the Father referring to the Son as God and yet in the same breath he calls the Father his God ? God cannot have a God according to the so - called doctrine of the Trinity, Yet, the Bible says that God has a God by having Jesus and his apostles referring to the father as "my God" and "his God" and "thy God and so forth.

Are you not aware of the fact that early christians like Origen were not afraid to speak of the Father and the Son as "One God" in one sense at the same time as speaking of the Father and Son as "two Gods" in another sense ?. Mormonism is in no case different than Origin and those to whom he preached on this view. Those who do not believe this should read ver carefully the Dialogue with Heraclides.

Two interesting quotes that LDS critics do not make know or present -

" Let it be remembered that Christ was with the Father from the beggining, that the gospel of truth and light existed from the beggining and is from everlasting to everlating. The Father, the Son, and Holy Ghost, as one God, are the fountain of truth". [Joseph F.Smith, Gospel Doctrine:Selections from the Sermons and Writings of Joseph F. Smith, compiled by John A.Widsoe [ Salt lake City: Deseret Book Co. 1939] page 30.

"Calvin, Luther, Melanchthon, and all the reformers, were inspired in thoughts, words, and actions to accomplish what they did for the amelioration, liberty and advancement of the human race. They paved the way for a more perfect gospel of truth to come. There inspiration, as with that of the anchients, came from the Father, his son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, the one true and living God ". [Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine: Selections from the Sermons and Writtings of Joseph F. Smith, compiled by John A. Widsoe [ salt Lake City : Deseret Book Co; 1939 page 399] originaly spoken in 1907.

Hope this clears up some misconception. Have a blessed day, may True Grace Be with You.

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#109

Post by B. W. » Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:38 pm

+
Let's see — you stated:
Obiwan wrote:Some observations from my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Brother in Christ Jesus and I . You asked that - " Why does Mormon doctrine seek legitimacy to the serpants words recorded in Genisis 3:5 ? If it is not a crime to become god if this is God's intent - then why was Adam and Eve expelled from the Garden ? Why do Mormons seek to become like God in full comliance with the devil's own Words ?.

B.W did you ever stop to consider that only some of the serpent's words were lies and the others were true ?. The serpent made three promisis, as follows [ from Genesis 3:4-5 TNIV]

#1-You will not certainly die... #2-...your eyes shall be opened... #3- ...you will be like God

The first promise is a lie -[See Genesis 5:6]
The second promise was the TRUTH [see Genesis 3:7]
The third promise was on set on its way to be true, is true, and shall be true. [ See Genesis 3:22]

Sometimes the devil tells the truth to make his lies more palatable and easier to swallow. BW you and other critics should try tp remember this before attacking what you do not understand.

One other thing: Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden so as to prevent them from taking of the tree of life and making void the promise of God that they would certaily die for eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge. Perhaps you should keep reading your Bible's more.
However the Bible tells us number three is a lie as well…

2 Samuel 7:22, "For this reason You are great, O Lord GOD; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You….

Isaiah 46:9, "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me..."

Isaiah 45:5, "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God..."

Isaiah 43:10, "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me..." NKJV


...There is only one God who is perfect in all his ways, and created the heavens and earth - none like him and He stated there will be none like him or come after him….

However Your website reference I gave quoted from the Doctrine & Covenants states:

1. D&C 132: 17, 19-20, D&C 132:17-20

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

D&C 76:95 quote below

95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.
Now if equal in power, might, and dominion as well all things are subject unto them, and have all power … Then there are gods equal to God and thus like him… Therefore Mormon doctrine violates the bible principles set forth by God himself…

Isaiah 45:21, 22, "Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. 22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other."
NKJV

Now according to Mormon doctrine in Isaiah 45:21-22 if the Single God Jesus was speaking, then would he not be excluding the Father — The Only Big God and thus be taking over — How can He say there is no other God except him and leave out the Father!

Now If it is the Big God speaking — then how could there be any other gods when he says — there will be no others… Now add this in with Isaiah 43:10 Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me and Mormonism has a real problem…

The Devil's sin was to exalt his throne above God's and to become god. He entices many today to be their own gods —entrapping many. Mormonism's own D&C teaches others to fall into that trap…

One other point — Adam and Eve did not become gods either afterward so devil lied. If this was the truth then the immediacy of the grammar would be manifested right away to be gods…themselves... right away! That very same DAY!!!
Obiwan wrote:
B.W also wrote - "Mormonism makes god's of people - progress toward this end. This is violation of the first two commandments. Therefore the question still stands - Is Mormonism in violation to the first two commandments ? " Answer this yes or no.
According to Moses Maimonides [Rambam], regarded by the Jews as the foremost Jewish scholar of all times, said that the trinity violates the first two commandments and was not adverse to calling the Trinity polythiesm as well as stating for the record that only Jews and Muslims are true monothiest.
Maimonides changed the wording of the Shema from echad to yachid. After this, the historical record shows how the Jewish people suffered so for abandoning God by abandonment of who God is by making him into an yachid.

Exodus 20:3, 4, 5, 7 "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me”... JPS

What happened to the Jewish people was none other than the fulfillment of verses 5 and 7… The word 'Name' used in the text implies the Lord's character and very nature. That is how the ancients define the word name. The Jewsih Leaders forsook this name and the historical record bears proof of the penalty. So I would not rely solely on Maimonides as your source. Historical records bear witness of the fury of God's words concerning changing his nature and character into vain common state of oneness like any other thing, etc…
Obiwan wrote: So, is christianity really in violation of the first two commandmaents ?, Yes or no?.

And why is it that our critics are so unaware of the New Testement of the Bible, that claims that Jesus is God, also state that the Father is Jesus' God in several places ?. If The comman doctrine of the trinity is true in all its points, how is it that the author of Hebrews has the Father referring to the Son as God and yet in the same breath he calls the Father his God ? God cannot have a God according to the so - called doctrine of the Trinity, Yet, the Bible says that God has a God by having Jesus and his apostles referring to the father as "my God" and "his God" and "thy God and so forth.
No it does not violate these commandments — We honor the name of the Lord leaving his nature and character intact as well as we remain true to the principles lain out in Isaiah 43:10 - Isaiah 45:5, 18, 21, 22 — Isaiah 46:9 - 2 Samuel 7:22 etc…

It explains the use of paniyim, Hebrew plural pronouns, use of Elohim, haElohim, Yahweh, Malak Yahweh, and the anthropomorphic expressions God uses to reveal himself — his character/nature i.e. name. His nature — is expressed as One God unlike anything known: Three distinct presences from one divine essence. Truly none like the Lord… as well as fulfills the truth of the incomprehensibly of God as well.

Since there will be no other gods, and no other gods formed, it explains the analogies of ruling and governing as a reflection of God's character as an ambassador - not as a duplicate god, but instead govern as He would and like He would as his reflection according to his image of love, grace, justice, etc. Thus fulfilling the truths that there are no other gods to be formed before or after ever… because there is only one God.

It explains who Jesus is, why he came, his nature, as well as relationship with the Father by remaining true to God's own injunctions in Isaiah 43:10 - Isaiah 45:5, 18, 21, 22 — Isaiah 46:9 - 2 Samuel 7:22 etc… What you fail to realize is how God's Spirit can reside in every Christian and still remain one. As well as the nature of Jesus as Messiah being 100 % man and 100% God… Nor how the Lord reveals his Panyim (Presences) and what this means… Nor what it means when Jesus stated he proceeded from the Father and was part of the Father who is spirit, not of flesh and bones, but the Father is Spirit. Understanding this explains Jesus relationship to the Father and retains the true oneness of God as truly one, none like him, that there are no others gods other than him nor will come after him….

It remains true the scripture and honors God's nature and character as revealed in the bible. It needs no extra books to properly interpret the word, after all, as Isaiah 55:8-9, 10 Isaiah 55:11 states God is more than able to keep and perform his word and no extra books are needed to add to his word are necessary - Isaiah 46:9, 10 — Isaiah 43:13 - Isaiah 44:6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 - Psalms 33:11.

Note Daniel 4:35, “…all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?"

Yet Joseph Smith's doctrine does just that — tells God what have you done — God's hand is too weak, his word can't accomplish what it was sent for and that God needs other books to properly interpret the bible — his word! WOW!!!

By the way glad to see you as a Mormon admit you are not a Christian…by saying Christianity violates…
Obiwan wrote: Fact is , the official doctrine of the LDS Church is a kind of monothiesm spoken of in the article by Heiser [which you gave a link to]. Critics need to quote our official sources, not those which are speculative works of others and which are not official teachings of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints in any way. Hope this can be done in the future or do you prefer sensationalism and setting up stawmen that are easily knocked down ?

Fact is, the official doctrine of the LDS Church is a kind of monothiesm spoken of in the article by Heiser [which you gave a link to]. Critics need to quote our official sources, not those which are speculative works of others and which are not official teachings of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints in any way. Hope this can be done in the future or do you prefer sensationalism and setting up stawmen that are easily knocked down ?
I do quote your own sources and leave links as well that proves this. Can you knock down God? He is no straw man — Mormonism violates the tenants of scripture — No other God formed or will come after him is pretty plain. He will permit none to be like him yet the D&C says God's purpose is to make beings his equal in power and might and ability! WOW! GOD IS NO STRAWMAN!!!

Mormonism not monotheistic, not even kind of, because D&C forbids this… by stating people become gods…
Obiwan wrote: Are you not aware of the fact that early christians like Origen were not afraid to speak of the Father and the Son as "One God" in one sense at the same time as speaking of the Father and Son as "two Gods" in another sense ?. Mormonism is in no case different than Origin and those to whom he preached on this view. Those who do not believe this should read ver carefully the Dialogue with Heraclides.
Origen defended the Trinity and understood it in his own way as well as defended it against people like yourself who attack it. Please get your facts straight…
Obiwan wrote: Two interesting quotes that LDS critics do not make know or present -

" Let it be remembered that Christ was with the Father from the beggining, that the gospel of truth and light existed from the beggining and is from everlasting to everlating. The Father, the Son, and Holy Ghost, as one God, are the fountain of truth". [Joseph F.Smith, Gospel Doctrine:Selections from the Sermons and Writings of Joseph F. Smith, compiled by John A.Widsoe [ Salt lake City: Deseret Book Co. 1939] page 30.

"Calvin, Luther, Melanchthon, and all the reformers, were inspired in thoughts, words, and actions to accomplish what they did for the amelioration, liberty and advancement of the human race. They paved the way for a more perfect gospel of truth to come. There inspiration, as with that of the anchients, came from the Father, his son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, the one true and living God ". [Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine: Selections from the Sermons and Writtings of Joseph F. Smith, compiled by John A. Widsoe [ salt Lake City : Deseret Book Co; 1939 page 399] originaly spoken in 1907.

Hope this clears up some misconception. Have a blessed day, may True Grace Be with You.

In His Debt/GraceObiwanLDS JEDI KNIGHT
As for the reformers and revivalist of Church History- they were not and never pointed to any other sourse other than the bible and never pointed the need of new books needed to add to the bible. They understood the principle set forth from Revelation 22:18-19.

Therefore what you stated is that God is not able to keep his word, unable to perform it, or complete his word so he needed J Smith — a Pedophile - like B. Young to interpret the bible properly by using other books to interpret it in such manner to justify using young girls as multiple wives to bear many spirit children of God as possible so they can inhabit other worlds ruling as gods!

Obiwan — please do yourself a favor — read and study the psychological makeup and mind set of pedophiles. How they use religion, and create their own from mix of religious ideas to justify their acts as well as the morbid fascination with being dominate — god like. Correlate that to court documents filed against Smith and Young and if you are honest you would get the picture.

By the way, I work in the area of criminal justice and am trained how to deal with and identify pedophiles as that is who many of my clients are. I manage their cases and treatment. Smith and Young make good case studies… How? We have the D&C and all their writings! Pedophiles do like to write nonsense religious material; many will out quote you in your use of scripture too justify their acts. They have one common theme in them all — to be in power — god like…

In case you would like to know more — do your own research on psychological makeup and mind set of pedophiles…
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#110

Post by Gman » Wed Jun 02, 2010 9:01 pm

B. W. wrote:By the way, I work in the area of criminal justice and am trained how to deal with and identify pedophiles as that is who many of my clients are. I manage their cases and treatment. Smith and Young make good case studies… How? We have the D&C and all their writings! Pedophiles do like to write nonsense religious material; many will out quote you in your use of scripture too justify their acts. They have one common theme in them all — to be in power — god like…

In case you would like to know more — do your own research on psychological makeup and mind set of pedophiles…
Not to mention Smith's and Young's racist views such as fusing the "curse of Cain" into the BoM. In this case calling African American blacks cursed of God.. Real Godly.
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#111

Post by Obiwan » Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:10 am

Thank you Gman and B.W for your Christlike responses. y>:D< It may be some time before a next response comes forth due to life's events and struggle's each day for me but I will get back with you as soon as time allows. My mental/physical challenge along with my feeble computer skills make it a challenge to keep up, so please be patient.

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Last edited by Obiwan on Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:59 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#112

Post by B. W. » Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:26 pm

Obiwan wrote:Thank you Gman and B.W for your Christlike responses. y>:D< It may be some time before a next response comes forth due to life's events and struggle's each day for me but I will get back with you as soon as time allows. My mental/physical challenge along with my feeble computer skills make it a challenge to keep up, so please be patient.
In His Debt/Grace Obiwan LDS JEDI KNIGHT
While you are away — here is a bit more to ponder….

Mormon wittings and doctrine clearly states God's purpose is for people to become their own gods equal with him however the bible poses problems form Mormon theology:

Isa 48:11 - For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another.

Isa 42:8-9 - I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols. Behold, the former things have come to pass, and new things I now declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them."
NKJV

These scriptures pose problems for Mormon doctrine because if the lesser singular god Jesus (little jehovah i.e. yahweh jr) is speaking in these verses, then Jesus would be exalting himself above the Big singular father god (elohim) by stating he shares not his glory to no one then the D&C 132 states he does just that!

Now if lesser singular Jesus god jr is referring to him being of equal class with big god i.e. one as Mormonism seems too alludes to in its definition of oneness, this then suggest that both the lesser and Big god can never share their glory with one another either or anyone else for that matter due to nature plural oneness as Mormonism define it. No matter how you try to slice it, God will not give his glory to another.

And anyway, how can there really be a lesser god when the D&C says that one can be equal to god in power and all authority and dominion???? How can there even be a lesser singular jesus god and a big singular superior god — would not this violate the principles set forth in D&C 132 as well as big god's intent to make gods equal with him? If instead this means equal to jesus — then no one can be equal to him — this makes no sense…

Hmmm, would that mean, that the spirit children that Mormonism teaches about become greater than jesus since jesus is lesser? Or would it mean that to be in equal in power, and in might, and in dominion means god shares his glory so his spirit children can become greater than jesus? But if what God says is true in the bible — then he can't share his glory with anyone — and there can be no lesser gods in any from — did he not also say that there was no god formed before him or follow after him as well?
1. D&C 132: 17, 19-20, Doctrine and Covenants

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

D&C 76:95 quote below

95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.
Another problem Mormon doctrine has, is that it believes that people become individual gods, with goddess wives, over their respective planet and that big father god is a god amongst all other gods. In other words, father god has a father and so forth. Who is big Father god's father and who is his grandfather, great grandfather, etc and etc?

The reason for this, is to explain away the hermeneutics of any bible verses like the ones quoted above and elsewhere used in my discourse thus far. From what I gather from reading Mormon text and Mormon's themselves is that according to them, there will be only one head honcho god and his family to rule a planet somewhere in the universe. Where they are involved in some form of spirit sex and have millions of spirit god children.

These spirit god children will need to learn how to be like daddy and mommy. So they are permitted to come into mortalness by birth on earth, learn their lessons, die and then be transferred out of their home planet sphere to their own planet as exalted along with their brood. Thus avoid the embarrassing issue posed by the bible not properly translated in what it means — god not sharing his glory (planet) or Hey, you all - No gods after me will rule my planet! take hike - off my cloud!

Thus they are true to the bible saying that only big daddy god and his family remain unchallenged and that is how head god cannot share his glory with another. How because - the millions of spirit god children grow-up and off they go leaving the one head honcho god in charge of the home and hearth planet sphere.

This means that only one head god remains over one small planet midst a vast universe amongst all other gods and their goddess wives having spiritual sex making millions of spirit god children who need to be born mortal to learn how to become like daddy and mommy...then booted out the nest to their own planets: So only one head big daddy god rules so none like him remain in his planet dominion — thus none like him fulfilled. But wasn't it supposed to be god's duty to make other gods who are equal with him? Ah yes — but not on his pad — planet!

However, the text and hermeneutics of the bible are very plain — there will BE NO OTHER GODs FROMED or FOLLOW AFTER — GOD WILL NOT SHARE HIS GLORY — PERIOD! And Deuteronomy 6:4 states — “HEAR, O ISRAEL: Yahweh our Elohim, Yahweh is one.”

If there are no other gods ruling this planet sphere yet there are other gods per various planets in the universe then would not big god here in his home realm still be stating an untruth? It would be like me telling a child, I am the only adult that exists while at the same time the child sees other adults walking about. Is not that an untruth told to the child?

God is not a man that he should lie. God is perfect in all his ways, no iniquity in him, he is pure and perfect the bible teaches us. How then could god so state an untruth that there are no other gods beside him nor will ever be formed before or follow after him and yet there still be other gods?

Oh I forgot he's only referring to his planet sphere of influence; however, this would still prove Mormon's big god unable to get the facts straight, er unable to tell the truth… hmm erred- lied? Add that to D&C 132 where one is to be equal with god — wow you got a problem with a god who can't get the facts straight!

When the bible says that none will share God's glory — then in D&C says he will share it — isn't that puzzling? Or better states a contradiction?


Then again - why is it Joseph Smith was so fixated on sex all throughout his writings and in the D&C
THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 132

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, as also plurality of wives. HC 5: 501—507. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

1—6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7—14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15—20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21—25, The strait and narrow way that leads to eternal lives; 26—27, Law given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28—39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation made to prophets and saints in all ages; 40—47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48—50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51—57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58—66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines

2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.....

...54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an hundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds.

56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid forgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to rejoice.

57 And again, I say, let not my servant Joseph put his property out of his hands, lest an enemy come and destroy him; for Satan seeketh to destroy; for I am the Lord thy God, and he is my servant; and behold, and lo, I am with him, as I was with Abraham, thy father, even unto his exaltation and glory....

60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.
62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.


63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.

64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.
65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife.
66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and ...
Just read the whole of it yourself here at http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132

Then compare with the psychological profile of a sex offender / pedophile and how they use religion to justify their acts and deeds — the correlation is too striking to be mere coincidence.

Let me clearly state clearly that I am not impugning that all Mormon men are sex offenders. Majority of Mormon men are decent family men, husband of one wife, have high moral values, etc. and are not like Joseph Smith, B. Young, Pratt — the founders. They are simply caught up in a religious system founded upon pure weirdness, and like everyone else, needs Jesus Christ to save them.

What I am pointing out is that the very founders of Mormonism were sex offenders based upon their own theology, fixation on sex, and having dominating controlling power no one dare cross as well as an over inflated egotistical grandiose sense of self importance that all sex offenders have in common. All this is well recorded within their writings evidenced from D&C 132 as but just one example.

And by the way D&C 132:64-66 you read it right it means administer SEX -just as it sounds... So if the ladies did not put out and give into every sex whim of the man - they could be destroyed - you got that???

That is not the God of the Bible - is it??

That is the sad truth of the historical roots of Mormonism. Things have changed as this kind of polygamy is not practiced as it once was. Some sects of Mormonism still do but it is outlawed. But I only intended to point out the text, in order to point out the truth about the founders themselves not anyone else in the realm of Mormondom. So take this as a bit of history and as Glen Beck says...never be afraid to question with boldness…

You draw your own conclusions...
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#113

Post by Obiwan » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:50 am

B.W agape salutations to you, I hope you are having a blessed day. I do not have much time, my life is hectic at times. My,my how we have strayed from the original topic of this thread : " Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity, to becoming a god,to Joseph Smith and Polygamy". I used to teach at a rehabilitation center in the local area for approx 7 years and one of my jobs I was trained to do was observe and document behavious in individuals I worked with, and I can't but help to observe some of your polemical dialectic rhetoric comments regarding things LDS/Mormon. I also am familiar with the teaching at anti LDS seminars/meetings of not to stay on one topic for to long but to use multiple criticisms and overwhelm the LDS you are in contact with into submission, is this what you are trying to do with me ?, it reads/sounds/smells that way to me. You are perhaps a decent, kind individual but your statements leave me second guessing you now. I have no ill feelings to your person, and apologize for any of my statements. By the way you have not told me where you Fellowship for Church, , when I can I attend Weslyan/Methodist, Southern Baptist Church, Calvery Chapel services, Bible studies, church activities. Well time is progressing I neesd to leave, I hope True Grace attends you this day.

P.S. Can you show ANY court document that has either Joseph Smith J.R Or Brigham Young being found with a verdict of "Guilty" in a Court Of Law for any reason which includes your sexual accusations against them ?. Thanks.

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#114

Post by B. W. » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:00 pm

Obiwan wrote:B.W agape salutations to you, I hope you are having a blessed day. I do not have much time, my life is hectic at times. My,my how we have strayed from the original topic of this thread : " Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity, to becoming a god,to Joseph Smith and Polygamy". I used to teach at a rehabilitation center in the local area for approx 7 years and one of my jobs I was trained to do was observe and document behavious in individuals I worked with, and I can't but help to observe some of your polemical dialectic rhetoric comments regarding things LDS/Mormon. I also am familiar with the teaching at anti LDS seminars/meetings of not to stay on one topic for to long but to use multiple criticisms and overwhelm the LDS you are in contact with into submission, is this what you are trying to do with me ?, it reads/sounds/smells that way to me. You are perhaps a decent, kind individual but your statements leave me second guessing you now. I have no ill feelings to your person, and apologize for any of my statements. By the way you have not told me where you Fellowship for Church, , when I can I attend Weslyan/Methodist, Southern Baptist Church, Calvery Chapel services, Bible studies, church activities. Well time is progressing I neesd to leave, I hope True Grace attends you this day.

P.S. Can you show ANY court document that has either Joseph Smith J.R Or Brigham Young being found with a verdict of "Guilty" in a Court Of Law for any reason which includes your sexual accusations against them ?. Thanks. True Salvation Is In Jesus Christ The Person IN His Debt/Grace Obiwan LDS JEDI KNIGHT


Everything I wrote has to do with the topic — Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity.

You oppose it — We defend it

In defense of the Christian Orthodox doctrine of the divine Trinity , these is a need to expose the error of Mormon Tri-theism and polytheism as that how the Mormons believe what the Trinity is and why they vehemently oppose the Christian Orthodox doctrine of the divine Trinity.

They view the Trinity through the prism of Tri-theistic and polytheistic glasses. The bible does not support this view at all, not even in the ancient languages the scriptures were written in, in word meanings or grammar, or hermeneutics, textual criticism, textual continuity, etc…and etc...

So if you come on this Forum to discuss why Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity — do not be surprised that we can more than adequately defend it, as well as expose the error of Mormon doctrine and how it was derived.

Lastly, as for proof for the claims made against Mormon founders J Smith, H Kimball, B Young, O Pratt, etc… you can do your own research on this matter… It is there. I'll post a few — but you must connect the dots and draw your own conclusions But what most Mormons do is claim martyr complex and blame hate from anti Mormon sites as proof of error on any anti Mormon document, eyewitness accounts, etc, blindly accept the perfectness of J Smith and purity of its founders without flaws. Much of what you have done so here — play - the I am a poor martyr complex -see all the hate here Christians have — they reject what I say but I wuv u all soooo….

We do not hate you. God's love tells the truth. You may not like the truth but it will set you free to find the real Christ Jesus in his true form. You can reject it or accept it. That's up to you. We are required to defend the gospel, and give reason for the hope that is within us, and proclaim his great name. That is what we do here on this forum. Love is often called upon to give a good slap in the face, chase out money changers and frauds in the church, to protect younger Christians from those that come as angles of light but carrying doctrines of demons instead.

2 Peter 2:13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20-22 - describes such persons and the founders of Mormonism fit the bill.

Remember this, the bible never attempts to hide the flaws of Moses, King David, Solomon, Elijah, etc.. it tells the naked truth. However, not so with the Mormon founders — try exposing their faults and history and you'll just find cover up and spin and more cover up. This speaks volumes about them — what are they seeking to hide?

Next, when in Salt Lake City area, Bountiful, Provo, etc look up at the Bench and all the nice big homes. Then go into the valley to a tailor park, or low income apartment. You just may find many young women single women with many children living of the state dole. Common knowledge of why this is — well known — a dirty little secret few dare mention. Again most Mormon men are faith and true their own wife, however there are still those…

Now Look at a few and note ages of eyewitness accounts:

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/26-He ... imball.htm

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... m=2&id=290

These do not mention concubines as the D&C does...

Below something interesting on Smith

http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/


Now Look at sex offenders and justification for concubines

http://wbztv.com/local/newhampshire/ber ... 27715.html

http://wonkette.com/371509/sex-offender ... hile-naked

Other things about J. Smith arrests — you'll have to dig for more info on your own…

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 611AAbnRO9

http://www.lightplanet.com/response/182 ... _Hill.html
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#115

Post by Obiwan » Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:44 pm

Where are the concret convictions that Joseph Smith Jr. and Brigham Young were both found guilty of being a pedifile?, what courthouse ? what state ?, what city ?, docet # ? :clap: the links you gave have no concrete evidence. You forgot to tell me where you fellowship for Church, Thank you.

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#116

Post by B. W. » Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:14 am

Obiwan wrote:Where are the concret convictions that Joseph Smith Jr. and Brigham Young were both found guilty of being a pedifile?, what courthouse ? what state ?, what city ?, docet # ? :clap: the links you gave have no concrete evidence. You forgot to tell me where you fellowship for Church, Thank you.
Obiwan - the evidence is there - you do the research and connect the dots.

Why was J. Simth killed trying to jump out of a window? For burning down an anti Mormon Newspaper building? Would that stir a mob of 200 people to act the way the did — or would seeking concubines make a crowd more angry? Sexual predators seek concubines and justify using them from, yes,use the bible and use other religious material. They will even gain help from other women for this purpose as well (E. Smart case). D&C 132 uses the same language as sexual predators use to justify such behaviors for many wives or concubines...

This is something that you must search out — it is there but like all FARM Mormons - they themselves will not be convinced unless they themselves discover the truth on their own. I am sure others can post links if they like but this matter is for you to look into. Not me…

If you do please note, back in the early 1800's the legal terms and knowledge about such behavior is much different than by our modern standards and the reaction of people towards rapist, sexual predators, etc and etc, were much different than they are today…

Connect the dots…
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#117

Post by B. W. » Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:33 pm

Obiwan -

I'll give two more links in which you can begin your own search:

Nauvoo Expositor Full Text which reveals much about J Smith's crimes and quest for power most people are not aware of... Long read but worth it... from there you can track other eyewitness accounts... it is from a fair mormon point of view but the quotes from the expositor are perserved in one location on this site.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Primary_source ... _Full_Text

Next is from this link and I only wanted to highlight the below quoted segment from it...
Nauvoo, Illinois

http://www.padfieldconsulting.com/mormo ... story.html

Mormons moved here, 45 miles north of Quincy, Illinois, to build a "Mormon City" which became the largest city in the state. Nauvoo had a population of around 20,000 people, about one quarter of which were Mormons. Joseph Smith reached the zenith of his influence here -- he was mayor of the town! Church membership rose to 100,000 members nationwide. As the mayor, Smith raised his own militia. His political power was equaled to that of the state government.

It was in Nauvoo that the Mormon doctrine of "Plural Marriage" (polygamy) caused a great deal of trouble. In June 1844 a newspaper, the Nauvoo Expositor published affidavits of 16 respectable women stating that Joseph Smith and other Mormon leaders tried to seduce them into polygamy. Smith's answer was to send a mob, the Legion of Nauvoo, to destroy the printing press and compel the publishers to flee for their lives. Illinois Governor Ford learned of the act, and ordered Smith to surrender himself to the constable at Carthage for trial. Joseph Smith fled, but later returned and was arrested and placed in jail at Carthage, Illinois.

The governor ordered Smith's militia to surrender their weapons. A riot developed outside the jail and a mob broke into the jail killing Joseph Smith's brother, Hyrum. On that afternoon of June 27, 1844 Joseph Smith was shot and killed as he tried to escape from the jail window. He was murdered -- not by a group of "anti-Mormons," but by men whose wives and daughters he had tried to ruin! When the jail was stormed, Joseph Smith used a handgun to kill two men and wound another. He might have killed more if his gun had not jammed!

Mormons claim that Smith was a "martyr." The dictionary defines "martyr" as "one who suffers death as a penalty of witnessing to and refusing to renounce his religion." Smith was in jail for breaking the law, and even in jail he tried to defend himself with a six-shooter, and wounded three men.

Mormons compare Joseph Smith with Jesus Christ: I've had Mormon elders tell me, "Christ sealed His testimony with His blood at Calvary Joseph Smith sealed his testimony with his blood at Carthage, Illinois." Smith's birthplace in Vermont has been called the "Bethlehem of Mormonism." During the riot the million dollar temple was destroyed by fire.
wikipedia for all its faults can lead to other and better documents - these you'll have to dig for...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_ ... t_polygamy

Connect the dots…
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#118

Post by Obiwan » Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:20 pm

But once again "Where is the conviction " ?, what state,county, docet # for his conviction of child abuse/molestation ?. The Nauvoo Exposior was/is well known for printing anti LDS polemical propeganda [This is parallel to the National Enquirer magazine you pick up and read at your local grocery store]. Lets see 200 men with faces painted black with murder in there hearts/minds [murderers do not enter the kingdom of Heaven by the way] led by a Baptist minister [Levi Williams] to murder Joseph Smith Jr. . Yes Joseph Smith had a small pistol that he shot blindly down the stairs to protect those in the jail cell with him. And by the way where are the "First Hand Accounts" that show that anyone died from Joseph Smiths Jr. 2-3 shots that he fired down the stairwwll to protect those in the cell with him ?. He was not in jail because of any child abuse/molestation charges but for trumpted up treason charges. Your connection of dots is nonexistent but drops into wabbit holes. Thank you again for reminding me why I am not a Right Wing Evangelical/Fundamentalist Christian. Is this the same type of research and service you provide your male child sex offenders with ?, if I was one of your clients you deal with and was innocent I would need to put my awesome attorney into action to have you arrested for false accusations ,slander, shame, shame on you. Have a nice day.

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Joseph Smith Jr Polygamy - http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith_and_polygamy

Joseph Smith Jr Polygamy not Biblical ? - http://en.fairmormon.org/Polygamy_not Biblical

Joseph Smith Jr Polygamy as Lustful Motives ? - http://en.fairmormon.org/Polygamy_becau ... ul_motives

Joseph Smith Jr Polygamy and marriage to young women - http://en.fairmomon.org/Joseph_Smith_an ... oung_women

Joseph Smith Jr Polygamy book/Age of wives - http://en.fairmormon.org/Polygamy_book/Age_of_wives

http://en.fairmormon.org/Topical_Guide/ ... y/Polygamy

http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai049.html

http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Introductio ... otest.html

Early Christians on plural marriage - http://en.fairmormon.org/Early_Christia ... l_marriage

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith_and_polygamy

No dots, just truth. Once again where are the convictions ?.


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Last edited by Obiwan on Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#119

Post by B. W. » Sun Jun 06, 2010 11:55 pm

Obiwan, We are fair and posted links to pro-Mormon sites like Fair Mormon; however, Mormons are not so fair in this regard. The LDS has gone to great lengths to make its founders into saints, changing and rewriting its history so this makes it difficult to sport thru but The Truth is still out there. Let the reader beware of the pro Mormon work out on the internet as with your links.

Now compare this to the bible. Moses' flaws were revealed, King David's sins were revealed, so was Solomon's. In fact, this makes the bible unique in ancient historical manuscripts where the leader's faults and sins were never mentioned and instead covered up… Mormon sites still go to great lengths to obscure the history of its founders. Why?


Here is an interesting article —

http://www.i4m.com/think/polygamy/polygamy_widows.htm

Here is one from this site http://www2.ldsfreedom.org that may help:

And

http://www2.ldsfreedom.org/node/9

Did Joseph Smith have intercourse with his wives?

(The following was written by the author of the following site: http://www.i4m.org/think/history/joseph_smith_sex.htm)

1. Did Joseph Smith have more than one wife while he was alive?

Absolutely. Just check Joseph Smith's official church marriage record at http://www.familysearch.org.(to pull up current link use http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/ ... p?recid=77...)
Faithful LDS member and historian Todd Compton has found solid documentation for Smith marriages to 33 women while he was alive. True, many more were sealed to him after his death, but Smith had at least 33 wives while he was alive.

Compton Writes:

"In the group of Smith's well-documented wives, eleven (33 percent) were 14 to 20 years old when they married him. Nine wives (27 percent) were twenty-one to thirty years old. Eight wives (24 percent) were in Smith's own peer group, ages thirty-one to forty. In the group aged forty-one to fifty, there is a substantial drop off: two wives, or 6 percent, and three (9 percent) in the group aged fifty-one to sixty."

"The teenage representation is the largest, though the twenty-year and thirty-year groups are comparable, which contradicts the Mormon folk-wisdom that sees the beginnings of polygamy was an attempt to care for older, unattached women. These data suggest that sexual attraction was an important part of the motivation for Smith's polygamy. In fact, the command to multiply and replenish the earth was part of the polygamy theology, so non-sexual marriage was generally not in the polygamous program, as Smith taught it."

Other good sites are the ones from ex-Mormons - just to read what they have to say… then check their sources... from ther dive into county and ccourt records and look for eyewitness accounts as well as diaries from those affected by Mormons of the time periods 1833-1870's...

Here is an ex mormom site...
from - http://www.exmormonforums.com/viewtopic ... 14&start=0

From Post August 15, 2009

The Mormons do believe the letter written by Joseph Smith to Sarah Ann Whitney is Anti-Mormon propaganda, even though the Mormon church doesn't dipspute it is from the hand of Joe Smith. It's the conditioned response and triangualated reasoning that's besing tested, and they don't want to know it's not true. Their world depends on Mormonism being true, so it has to be true... even though it's not. This letter is the smoking gun and there is no doubt Joseph Smith is eyeing his next target teenage girl. She was just about to turn 17, and if one can't see the truth, it's because they don't want to. The sick thing is, look at who Mormonism is defending in Joseph Smith...
As you go thru and read accounts and check sources - notice J. Smith's writings to teenage girls who he'll sneak to them... hmmm....

Another ex-mormon site noted for a good read:

http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_joes ... tion2.html

http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_joes ... 1029021290

http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_kirt ... 1150945763


Also Cram makes many interesting points well worth checking out about different aspects of Mormonism...

http://www.carm.org/joseph-smith-quotes

http://www.carm.org/brigham-young-quotes

http://www.carm.org/changes-to-book-of-mormon

http://www.carm.org/mormon-definitions


Again you must come to your own conclusions…
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#120

Post by CeT-To » Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:28 am

Obi, also take a look at this article.

http://www.carm.org/false-prophecies-of-joseph-smith
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16

I Praise you Yahweh, my Lord, my God!!!!!

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