Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

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Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

#1

Post by Gman » Sat May 22, 2010 5:58 pm

Well.. If there isn't a video that describes the Mormons view on the Trinity, it would be this one. And then they call themselves "true" Christians.

Are Mormon's Christian? It doesn't appear so..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STgqgEAy ... re=related
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity..

#2

Post by CeT-To » Sat May 22, 2010 8:18 pm

I don't understand why they think God is just a title between 3 seperate beings :econfused: maybe you can enlighten me Gman?

thanx bro God bless! (the trinitarian God YWHW that is :lol: )
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16

I Praise you Yahweh, my Lord, my God!!!!!

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity..

#3

Post by Obiwan » Mon May 24, 2010 4:38 pm

Which Trinity form/model are Mormons "vehemently" opposed to ?, western ?,eastern ?,economic ?,essential ?,social ?,monarch ?.
I am curious. Thank you.

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity..

#4

Post by Gman » Mon May 24, 2010 6:20 pm

Obiwan wrote:Which Trinity form/model are Mormons "vehemently" opposed to ?, western ?,eastern ?,economic ?,essential ?,social ?,monarch ?.
I am curious. Thank you.

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Did you listen to the above YouTube video by Jeffery R. Holland? He is claiming that the Trinitarian notion set forth in the scriptures is not true... He even states that "our view of the Godhead breaks with post—New Testament Christian history."

Here are his exact words..
Holland wrote:"Our first and foremost article of faith in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”2 We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures because it is not true.

Indeed no less a source than the stalwart Harper's Bible Dictionary records that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].”3

So any criticism that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not hold the contemporary Christian view of God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost is not a comment about our commitment to Christ but rather a recognition (accurate, I might add) that our view of the Godhead breaks with post—New Testament Christian history and returns to the doctrine taught by Jesus Himself. Now, a word about that post—New Testament history might be helpful.

We declare it is self-evident from the scriptures that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate persons, three divine beings, noting such unequivocal illustrations as the Savior's great Intercessory Prayer just mentioned, His baptism at the hands of John, the experience on the Mount of Transfiguration, and the martyrdom of Stephen—to name just four.

Source: http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng ... -hath-sent
There is a huge difference between the Mormon Jesus and the Christian Jesus.. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are NOT separate divine beings of God. They are all part of the same. They make up God himself...

A better comparison can be found here..

http://www.carm.org/comparison-between- ... n-doctrine
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity..

#5

Post by cslewislover » Mon May 24, 2010 7:35 pm

From what I've experienced with Mormons - which isn't a ton, but still - they are pretty misinformed about their own church's doctrine. There are publications by former Mormons that discuss this too, though I need to read more. . . . . . need . . . more . . . time . . . I don't know why obiwan posted what he did, if he's LDS. He should know perfectly well what you're talking about, unless he knows nothing about his church's doctrine. Here's another very short quote about this (from http://www.religionfacts.com/mormonism/ ... rinity.htm ):



Godhead, Not Trinity

Unlike Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant Christianity, Mormonism does not include belief in a Trinity, in which the one God consists of three persons. Instead, Mormons believe that the "Godhead" is made up of three distinct beings who are "one in purpose" but not in being. These beings are:

* God the Heavenly Father;
* Jesus Christ; and
* the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost).

References

1. "Core Beliefs and Doctrines: Godhead." LDS.org.
2. "Who is the Holy Ghost?" Mormon.org.

Related Links

* Mormon Beliefs: God - BBC Religion
* Nature of God - Mormon.org (click on "Index" on the left for full list of topics)
* References for Mormon and Biblical Beliefs about God - Leadership U (non-Morman website)
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity..

#6

Post by openminded » Tue May 25, 2010 4:36 am

This is one of the trickiest topics to discuss with a Mormon. 

For one, they think "one in purpose" sufficiently places them in monotheism. Wonderful doubletalk. I suggest presenting Joseph Smith's view on the matter:

" I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural; and who can contradict it?" -Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 370

If they pull the opinion card, I'd stress how a polytheist came up with their "we can become gods" doctrine. Wonder what else Smith came up with around that time...I'll have to look up the time that Smith's new view happened, I believe it was around the time he first studied Hebrew and mistranslated Elohim in Genesis. Aomin.org has a good article on that.  

But take a look at Bruce McConkie's views:
"Three separate personages-Father, Son, and Holy Ghost- comprise the Godhead. As each of these persons is a God, it is evident, from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only Gods we worship. But in addition there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods." -Mormon Doctrine, pp. 576-77

But look what McConkie does to himself, even in the same book! It's ridiculous:
"Monotheism is the doctrine or belief that there is but one God. If this is properly interpreted to mean that the Father, the Son, and Holy Ghost-each of whom is a separate and distinct godly personage-are one God, meaning one Godhead, then true saints are monotheists."

They want to have their cake and eat it!  

Furthermore, as it is with almost ANYone who questions the Nicene Creed, explaining the trinity to them is like walking through a minefield. It's difficult, especially in person, to remember the verses that prove the "three persons in one being" concept and then to logically justify a "three persons in one" concept. I can imagine a modern-day evangelical layperson making a mockery out of the trinity while discussing it to a Mormon. I mean really, do we only get to learn about this doctrine through some seminary school? Thank God for the Internet. 

And though Mormons are theistically confused, let's keep in mind they have a hard time distinguishing between "wisdom" and "knowledge" in the first place--an error that, had it been correctly thought out, would've saved them from the mess they're in. Heck, we almost need to distinguish "feeling" from "knowledge" while we're at it!

God help us.
And Obiwan, to answer your question, LDS vehemently oppose Nicene trinitarianism. I'm not sure what you meant by social or economic trinitarianism, so I just went with what it essentially is. In fact, I'm pretty sure anything that strays from Nicene trinitarianism has a different name than trinitarianism. I'm not big on differentiating the names of different doctrines (only the principles of them), so here's a good article on the different names: http://vintage.aomin.org/trinitydef.html

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity..

#7

Post by Obiwan » Tue May 25, 2010 8:05 am

Thank you all who have shared your thoughts from scripture, I am no scholar/theologian/minister/pastor but a simple lay person [a simpleton/Brain injured]. From my limited research/resources I have observed there are multiple forms/models of the trinity, the Nicea form/model being one of those. I understand that when the word classification "Being" is used it denoted "Nature" and when the word classification "person" is used it denoted a "Mask" in Latin and that there is a subordination [ Not in nature ] within the Godhead/Trinity. May Grace Be with you all.

Salvation Is In Jesus Christ The Person.
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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity..

#8

Post by Gman » Tue May 25, 2010 5:14 pm

Obiwan wrote:Thank you all who have shared your thoughts from scripture, I am no scholar/theologian/minister/pastor but a simple lay person [a simpleton/Brain injured]. From my limited research/resources I have observed there are multiple forms/models of the trinity, the Nicea form/model being one of those. I understand that when the word classification "Being" is used it denoted "Nature" and when the word classification "person" is used it denoted a "Mask" in Latin and that there is a subordination [ Not in nature ] within the Godhead/Trinity. May Grace Be with you all.

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Oh well sure.. Anybody could make up a belief about anything.. We see this all the time in Christianity and it in Mormonism too or any other belief for that matter. Just make it up.. I even knew someone who randomly picked out verses in the Bible with his eyes closed and came up with his own theology. But then again this wouldn't be Biblical..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity..

#9

Post by Obiwan » Tue May 25, 2010 6:24 pm

I do not believe it is all "made up" but what is seen through the eyes/mind of the religious tradition one is exposed to. This includes Protestant eyesight/mindset as it is viewed by them which is seen by many a non -Protestant Christian and in other ways as well. Thank you for sharing. :esmile:

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity..

#10

Post by openminded » Tue May 25, 2010 6:30 pm

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand your statement fully.

Did you mean to say that "what is seen through the eyes/mind of the religious tradition one is exposed to" is what's made up?

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity..

#11

Post by Gman » Tue May 25, 2010 6:38 pm

Obiwan wrote:I do not believe it is all "made up" but what is seen through the eyes/mind of the religious tradition one is exposed to. This includes Protestant eyesight/mindset as it is viewed by them which is seen by many a non -Protestant Christian and in other ways as well. Thank you for sharing. :esmile:

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The Trinity is not "tradition." Sorry, you have it all wrong.. It's ingrained into the Bible..

The Trinity in the Old Testament..
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/triunity.html

Evidence for God from Science: Christian Apologetics Jesus Christ as God and the Trinity Was Not Invented Until the Fourth Century?
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/trinity.html

"The discovery of a 3rd century Christian church at Megiddo, Israel, along with an inscription to the "god Jesus Christ" confirms that Christians worshipped Jesus Christ as God before the council of Nicaea."
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... hurch.html

Jesus Christ Never Said He Was God?
http://www.godandscience.org/cults/jesus.html
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity..

#12

Post by Obiwan » Tue May 25, 2010 8:37 pm

Once again which Godhead/Trinity Form/model ?, Nicea is your answer I take it. I will try and get back to this tomorrow when I have time. :wave: . Have a blessed night. May Grace be with you.

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity..

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Post by Gman » Tue May 25, 2010 8:55 pm

Obiwan wrote:Once again which Godhead/Trinity Form/model ?, Nicea is your answer I take it. I will try and get back to this tomorrow when I have time. :wave: . Have a blessed night. May Grace be with you.

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I'm not sure what others models you are referring to that haven't been decreed nor written in the Bible..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity..

#14

Post by Obiwan » Wed May 26, 2010 8:56 am

I am saying that in the past I have read/seen Forms/Models Of The Trinity called - Western/Eastern/Economic/Essential/Social that individuals [anchiently and modern] have presented according to there view of how they read scripture . I believe it was Augustine who refined/reworked what he saw in the Nicene creed. Thanks again for your thoughts. :esmile:

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Re: Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity..

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Post by Gman » Wed May 26, 2010 8:19 pm

Obiwan wrote:I am saying that in the past I have read/seen Forms/Models Of The Trinity called - Western/Eastern/Economic/Essential/Social that individuals [anchiently and modern] have presented according to there view of how they read scripture . I believe it was Augustine who refined/reworked what he saw in the Nicene creed. Thanks again for your thoughts. :esmile:

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Augustine reworked the Trinity? Oh I don't think so.. Again, the Trinity has always been a part of the scripture. If you think you have the proof of your claim then show it..

Of course though people are always going to express their views on it. Take the gnostic gospels.. People revealing a completely different Jesus. But are they true? Not if we read the Bible.. Just like if we read the National Enquirer. You are ALWAYS going to find a different opinion..
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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