The Doctrine of Purgatory

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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The Doctrine of Purgatory

#1

Post by ageofknowledge » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:21 am

Byblos wrote:
ageofknowledge wrote:The doctrine of purgatory is a hoax perpetuated by the ignorance of some early church fathers (e.g. Patristic Theology) and finally formalized under a Catholic church in dire need of reform at the beginning of a counter reformation at the Council of Trent. It's a hoax. If you're a Christian reading this, you're in purgatory... lol. After this, it's off to heaven. Do not pass go and do not collect $200.00.
Says you. But that's a different topic altogether.
Here's what happens when you start twisting scripture around to form church edicts: http://www.equip.org/articles/the-mormo ... r-the-dead

Lol.. the Mormon church teaches you can take somone who has rejected Jesus Christ their entire life and died a non-believer and they can be saved and transported into heaven. The Catholics come close with their false doctrine of purgatory but the Mormons at least had the balls to take that line of heresy to its final conclusion.

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Re: False doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

#2

Post by Byblos » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:38 am

ageofknowledge wrote:
Byblos wrote:
ageofknowledge wrote:The doctrine of purgatory is a hoax perpetuated by the ignorance of some early church fathers (e.g. Patristic Theology) and finally formalized under a Catholic church in dire need of reform at the beginning of a counter reformation at the Council of Trent. It's a hoax. If you're a Christian reading this, you're in purgatory... lol. After this, it's off to heaven. Do not pass go and do not collect $200.00.
Says you. But that's a different topic altogether.
Here's what happens when you start twisting scripture around to form church edicts: http://www.equip.org/articles/the-mormo ... r-the-dead

Lol.. the Mormon church teaches you can take somone who has rejected Jesus Christ their entire life and died a non-believer and they can be saved and transported into heaven. The Catholics come close with their false doctrine of purgatory but the Mormons at least had the balls to take that line of heresy to its final conclusion.
Age,

It is clear to me from what you wrote here and in a different thread that you have no clue what purgatory is. Regardless, if you want to argue against purgatory or any other doctrine (other than hell) please do it in a different thread. Let's not hijack this one. Thanks.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: False doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

#3

Post by ageofknowledge » Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:23 pm

Byblos wrote:
ageofknowledge wrote:
Byblos wrote:
ageofknowledge wrote:The doctrine of purgatory is a hoax perpetuated by the ignorance of some early church fathers (e.g. Patristic Theology) and finally formalized under a Catholic church in dire need of reform at the beginning of a counter reformation at the Council of Trent. It's a hoax. If you're a Christian reading this, you're in purgatory... lol. After this, it's off to heaven. Do not pass go and do not collect $200.00.
Says you. But that's a different topic altogether.
Here's what happens when you start twisting scripture around to form church edicts: http://www.equip.org/articles/the-mormo ... r-the-dead

Lol.. the Mormon church teaches you can take somone who has rejected Jesus Christ their entire life and died a non-believer and they can be saved and transported into heaven. The Catholics come close with their false doctrine of purgatory but the Mormons at least had the balls to take that line of heresy to its final conclusion.
Age,

It is clear to me from what you wrote here and in a different thread that you have no clue what purgatory is. Regardless, if you want to argue against purgatory or any other doctrine (other than hell) please do it in a different thread. Let's not hijack this one. Thanks.
It's merely your mistaken opinion that I misunderstand the false doctrine of purgatory: not reality. You have a bad habit of accusing those who disagree with you of ignorance. I think this is a default position you take with people who disagree because the only conclusion you can draw is they must not understand that you simply have to be right. Even when you're not. But since you are transforming into the role of board admin here, I'll take it into another thread.

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Re: False doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

#4

Post by Byblos » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:08 pm

ageofknowledge wrote:
Byblos wrote:
ageofknowledge wrote:
Byblos wrote:
ageofknowledge wrote:The doctrine of purgatory is a hoax perpetuated by the ignorance of some early church fathers (e.g. Patristic Theology) and finally formalized under a Catholic church in dire need of reform at the beginning of a counter reformation at the Council of Trent. It's a hoax. If you're a Christian reading this, you're in purgatory... lol. After this, it's off to heaven. Do not pass go and do not collect $200.00.
Says you. But that's a different topic altogether.
Here's what happens when you start twisting scripture around to form church edicts: http://www.equip.org/articles/the-mormo ... r-the-dead

Lol.. the Mormon church teaches you can take somone who has rejected Jesus Christ their entire life and died a non-believer and they can be saved and transported into heaven. The Catholics come close with their false doctrine of purgatory but the Mormons at least had the balls to take that line of heresy to its final conclusion.
Age,

It is clear to me from what you wrote here and in a different thread that you have no clue what purgatory is. Regardless, if you want to argue against purgatory or any other doctrine (other than hell) please do it in a different thread. Let's not hijack this one. Thanks.
It's merely your mistaken opinion that I misunderstand the false doctrine of purgatory: not reality. You have a bad habit of accusing those who disagree with you of ignorance. I think this is a default position you take with people who disagree because the only conclusion you can draw is they must not understand that you simply have to be right. Even when you're not. But since you are transforming into the role of board admin here, I'll take it into another thread.
Typical ad hominim attacks I've come to expect nothing less from you but here's your chance, a new thread on purgatory. Even though I've made it clear on many occasions I'm not here to discuss Catholicism unless specifically asked, I will make an exception only for the sake of clarity.

Let me first highlight a few things you've already said so there's no ambiguity:

In this thread
you wrote:the Mormon church teaches you can take somone who has rejected Jesus Christ their entire life and died a non-believer and they can be saved and transported into heaven. The Catholics come close with their false doctrine of purgatory but the Mormons at least had the balls to take that line of heresy to its final conclusion.
I dare you to provide any official Catholic documentation that comes remotely close to saying anything close to that.

In another thread (Pimping Jesus)
you wrote:Whether you choose that state from birth or whether you end in that state as an apostate, scripture reveals your end is hell (not purgatory and then heaven).
again suggesting that somehow purgatory is a place non-believers can escape hell (nothing could be further from the truth).

Now please go ahead and explain what you think you know about purgatory.


Post edit: I will post in this thread as another user only and leave the moderating to others, lest again I am accused of subverting anyone's liberties.
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Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: The Doctrine of Purgatory

#5

Post by jlay » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:29 pm

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

The RCC says that people in purgetory can be prayed for, and that those prayers can affect that person's fate. It is also rooted in the belief that all sins are not equal. Mortal and Venial sin. If mortal sins are not repented of then the person can not be forgiven. Venial sins can be dealt with in purgetory.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: The Doctrine of Purgatory

#6

Post by Byblos » Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:37 pm

jlay wrote:Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

The RCC says that people in purgetory can be prayed for, and that those prayers can affect that person's fate. It is also rooted in the belief that all sins are not equal. Mortal and Venial sin. If mortal sins are not repented of then the person can not be forgiven. Venial sins can be dealt with in purgetory.
Yes to all. What purgatory is NOT and what Age seems to be implying everywhere is that it is a place non-believers can somehow escape hell if we pray for them. That is what I am setting out to disprove. I'm waiting on him to explain if I've misunderstood his position.

But for those who do know what purgatory really is and still disagree with it, can you please tell me what the difference is between purgatory and the Bema seat judgment of Christ? And more importantly, why the same scriptural reference is used in support of both? (e.g. 1 Cor 3:11-15).
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: The Doctrine of Purgatory

#7

Post by jlay » Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:21 pm

Are you sure you have the right scripture reference there?
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious

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Re: The Doctrine of Purgatory

#8

Post by ageofknowledge » Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:37 pm

Geesh Bylbos. I never said a non-believer could be prayed into heaven. I do NOT believe that. I posted a link showing that is the Mormon position as a poke at the RCC and ECC for teaching the false doctrine of purgatory. I do NOT believe in purgatory. That should clear up my position on both those matters.

And I'm not attacking you personally, I'm simply pointing out a behavior from you I've seen consistently. Nobody's perfect.

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Re: The Doctrine of Purgatory

#9

Post by ageofknowledge » Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:49 pm

jlay wrote:Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

The RCC says that people in purgetory can be prayed for, and that those prayers can affect that person's fate. It is also rooted in the belief that all sins are not equal. Mortal and Venial sin. If mortal sins are not repented of then the person can not be forgiven. Venial sins can be dealt with in purgetory.
Bingo! jlay wins a prize. :amen:

I will post a very Protestant rebuttal to the false doctrine of purgatory soon.

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Re: The Doctrine of Purgatory

#10

Post by zoegirl » Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:39 pm

Let's everyone calm down here. Byblos is obviously the go-to guy on Catholic doctrine and as such, it's certainly understandable that he should want clarification when others make assertions on what the Catholic teaching states or doesn't state.

To avoid misunderstandings, explain one's position fully.

Surely we can debate this in a more civilized manner?
(and stop calling me shirley :ebiggrin: )
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Re: The Doctrine of Purgatory

#11

Post by ageofknowledge » Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:37 pm

Roman Catholics, many Anglicans, and some Eastern Orthodox believe in a third place after death, called purgatory, while Protestants reject the existence of any such place. Purgatory is an essential doctrine of the Catholic faith, as the Council of Trent declared "infallibly":

If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged, either in this world or in Furgatory, before the gates of Heaven can be opened, let him be anathema. (in Schroeder, CCT, 46).

Not everything Catholic theologians have said about purgatory has been pronounced as an infallible Catholic truth, including:

(1) A purification takes place before one enters heaven.
(2) This purification involves some kind of pain or suffering.
(3) This purification can be assisted by prayers and devotions of the living.
(4) Purgatory is an actual place.
(5) A person will be there for a certain amount of time.

Of course, "infallible" or not, many other teachings exist about purgatory widely believed and practiced in Catholicism, as both noted theologians and popes have made declarations on the issue.

Catholic scholar Ludwig Ott (b. 1906) defined it thus: "The souls of the just which, in the moment of death, are burdened with venial sins or temporal punishment due to sins, enter Purgatory." Purgatory, then, is a period of temporal punishment for sins at death and before heaven despite many contemporary Catholic theologians attempts to downplay and even deny that purgatory is a place in their Church's theology, thinking of it more as a pocess of purification that leads to heaven. Catholics argue for purgatory using scripture, tradition, and speculation.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia frankly discloses that "the doctrine of purgatory is not explicitly stated in the Bible" (1 1:1034). In fact, neither is Purgatory implicity taught in scriptures. Since the Roman Catholic use of God's Word to support purgatory does violence to the contexts of the passages employed. Brief examination and rebuttal will suffice.

2 Maccabees l2:42-46
The Protestant response to the use of this text to support purgatory is basic: 2 Maccabees is not part of the inspired canon and has no biblical authority. The Apocrypha, was not accepted as inspired by the Jewish community that wrote it. The apocryphal writings were not accepted by Jesus and the apostles, who never quoted them with authority in the New Testament. They were rejected by many important early Fathers, including Jerome (340-420), the great biblical scholar and translator of the Latin Vulgate. Indeed, they weren't infallibly added to the Roman Catholic Bible until after the Reformation (c. 1546) in a futile attempt to support purgatory and prayers for the dead, which had been rightly attacked by Martin Luther (1483-1546). Even then, the polemical, counter reformational Council of Trent inconsistently rejected some apocryphal books, including one that speaks against prayer for the dead.

Roman Catholic use of Matthew 12:32 to support theoretical forgiveness of sins after death fails for several reasons. First, the text is not saying that there will/could be forgiveness in the next life (after suffering for sins), but that there will be no forgiveness for this sin after death. How can Christ's absolute denial of postdeath forgiveness for a specific sin possibly be the basis for speculation that sins in general will be forgiven in the next life? Second, purgatory (as defined by the Catholic Church) involves only venial sins, and this sin is not venial, it is mortal-eternal and unforgivable. Third, Jesus isn't even speaking about punishment, which catholics affirm will occur in purgatory. Accordingly, in no sense could this passage be used to support the concept of purgatorial punishment. Fourth, even if this passage did imply punishment, it would not be for those who will eventually be saved (as Catholics believe is the case with those who go to purgatory); Christ is speaking about those who will never be saved.

1 Corinthians 3:15
This neither says nor implies anything about a believer suffering temporal consequences in purgatory for his sins: He is not burned in the fire: his works are burned. The tendency of contemporary Catholic apologists to reduce purgatorial pain to the scrutinizing experience of postmortem sanctification indicates their retreat from their traditional, even more objectionable, dogma. 1 Corinthians is written to those "who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus." Since they were already positionally sanctified in Christ," they needed no further purification to give them a right standing before God. The context reveals that Paul is not speaking about the consequences for sin, but the reward for service to those already saved.

Matthew 5:26 as well fails as scriptural support for purgatory. Here's the primary reasons why we reject the doctrine of purgatory:
Purgatory is a denial of the all-Sufficiency of Christ's Suffering; purgatory is contrary to the immediacy of Heaven or Hell after death; purgatory is based on the unbiblical teaching of "The Treasury of Merit"; the very idea of salvific merit violates clear Biblical teaching; Catholic Church tradition is not infallible; purgatory is inconsistent with other Catholic doctrines; purgatory involves the unbiblical belief in praying for the dead; purgatory is a practical denial of the mediatorship of Chris; purgatory is pagan in origin; and the historical testimony against the purgatory doctrine.

In view of purgatory's unbiblical nature, it is understandable that some Catholics deemphasizing certain aspects of the doctrine. The biblical basis for these (purgatory and its accompanying doctrines) is found seriously wanting. In fact, these tenets are antibiblical, for they run contrary to such scriptural basics as the all-sufficiency and finality of Christ's atoning sacrifice and the uniqueness of God as the sole object of our devotion and prayer. Conflicting traditions and human speculations are based often on apocryphal books that have been rejected from the Canon.

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Re: The Doctrine of Purgatory

#12

Post by Byblos » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:02 pm

jlay wrote:Are you sure you have the right scripture reference there?
Quite sure, yes. One of the scriptures used to support purgatory is 1 Cor 3:11-15.
ageofknowledge wrote:Geesh Bylbos. I never said a non-believer could be prayed into heaven. I do NOT believe that. I posted a link showing that is the Mormon position as a poke at the RCC and ECC for teaching the false doctrine of purgatory.
I never said you said it, I said you implied it and you most certainly did so quit playing games.
ageofknowledge wrote:I do NOT believe in purgatory. That should clear up my position on both those matters.
About the only thing that was clear.
ageofknowledge wrote:And I'm not attacking you personally, I'm simply pointing out a behavior from you I've seen consistently. Nobody's perfect.
You are entitled to your observation about me. I disagree with it.
ageofknowledge wrote:I will post a very Protestant rebuttal to the false doctrine of purgatory soon.
And I will follow it with an official Catholic clarification so again there's no ambiguity. I'm not interested in debating or convincing anyone, merely to present the doctrine free of misconceptions, deliberate or otherwise.
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Re: The Doctrine of Purgatory

#13

Post by Byblos » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:18 pm

From the following source:
I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 — Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won't get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 — Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead's behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul's use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 — many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus' statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life — perhaps by a bloody and repentant death — could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.
II. Purification After Death By Fire

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 — “if any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 — further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, "but only" (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase "but only" (or “yet so”) in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.
The last part in the link is titled The Early Church's Belief in Purgatory and is quite extensive so I won't copy it here. But it should serve to dispel any silly notion that purgatory started with Trent.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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Re: The Doctrine of Purgatory

#14

Post by ageofknowledge » Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:45 pm

Like so many extrabiblical Catholic doctrines, purgatory originated in pagan thought. Plato (c. 427-347 B.c.) taught similarly, four centuries before Christ. But other than some pagan influence among certain church Fathers, there is little early support for the doctrine of purgatory, and there is compelling evidence against it in the writers' emphasis on the all-sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice.

Some later Latin Fathers (Cyprian, Gregory, and Augustine) are cited in support of purgatory. However, the Reformers fiercely challenged the basis for these references and spoke out strongly against purgatorial doctrine.

The doctrine of purgatory was formalized as an article of faith at the Council of Florence in 1439 and then confirmed at the Council of Trent in 1548.

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Re: The Doctrine of Purgatory

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Post by Byblos » Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:27 am

ageofknowledge wrote:Like so many extrabiblical Catholic doctrines, purgatory originated in pagan thought. Plato (c. 427-347 B.c.) taught similarly, four centuries before Christ. But other than some pagan influence among certain church Fathers, there is little early support for the doctrine of purgatory, and there is compelling evidence against it in the writers' emphasis on the all-sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice.
Guess you didn't bother reading the bottom half of the article linked, did you?
ageofknowledge wrote:Some later Latin Fathers (Cyprian, Gregory, and Augustine) are cited in support of purgatory. However, the Reformers fiercely challenged the basis for these references and spoke out strongly against purgatorial doctrine.
1,500 years after the fact.
ageofknowledge wrote:The doctrine of purgatory was formalized as an article of faith at the Council of Florence in 1439 and then confirmed at the Council of Trent in 1548.
Do you know the difference between formalized and practiced? Tell me, when was the doctrine of the Trinity believed and practiced? When was it formalized? Do you have a problem with that? And who exactly did the formalizing on both ends? For that matter, when was scripture formalized and by whom?

The rest is just private interpretation as opposed to 2,000 years of history and apostolic roots. Hmmm, is there really a contest? I don't see one, sorry. It always comes down to a matter of authority, it's that simple.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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